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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: initiate ()
Date: May 22, 2006 02:33PM

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barabara
Initiate;

You, a former devotee, have written that the religious scriptures believed in by followers of this guru say that anyone who blasphemes this guru should be killed?
Are these some of the secret teachings of this group?

I'm just trying to get this straight. I have read this sort of thing before, on other forums.

How do these murderous teachings fit in with other teachings about the qualities of a vaisnava, taken from the Srimad Bhagavatam, 5th Canto, Chpt. 18, Text 13?

How is this reconciled with the group alledgedly having a "pro-life" stance?

How is this consistent with the teaching of ahimsa, or not harming animals, or respect for life?

How can these people claim to be Christians, as they are reported to be doing nowadays?

And yet you say that there is nothing in this cult that would ever wind up on "60 minutes"? This begins to sound more and more like Jim Jones.

Does anyone still doubt that this is a dangerous cult after reading the previous post by initiate?

barbara,
I can't answer your questions. I can see you are trying to make a case and eqauate the group with Jim Jones or something. It really was not dangerous in that way. I don't want to stretch the truth, it's weird enough as it is.

The 3 ways to deal with blashpemy (in descending order of intensity) is stated in such a way to demonstrate the seriousness of the crime with the ultimate goal of just running away and staying away from people who blaspheme your guru. It was never meant to be taken literally that you should exercise the first option, to kill -- that was exactly the point of the lesson. I didn't make that clear. Only crazy fanatics would take it literally. Most of the devotees were really kind and gentle folk. I know it's hard to wrap your mind around all of this, but it was not a black and white kind of thing. There were no "secret" teachings any more than there was a real organization to join. The secrets were always of a practical nature to keep Siddha's support system going. No orders of violence or suicide. No thugs beating up wayward diciples. Just a bunch of us stupid, idealistic and naive followers. This is the deal, as you can see is also being confirmed by others.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: devadasi ()
Date: May 22, 2006 03:06PM

Yea things just got more and more bizarre as time went by. I wonder how many of his followers actually know all this stuff. I remember the policy was always, 'if you don't know something, you are not supposed to know.' It was always a great offense to say anything about his personal life. I guess Yamaraja the lord of death, will be waiting for me due to my great offense here.

Yea I continued to get all the pages of complaints and I even got a peak at the policy book, what a joke!! You have to be a lawyer to figure out the policies or who broke them and to what extent!!! There were even fines imposed for those who broke policies!!! I got chastised for my unauthorized peak in the policy book.

Just Googling, you didn't know Vaishnava dasi had kids? Wow I must have been closer to the top then I thought!!! I knew she had three kids, two girls and a boy. Siddha and Vaishnava dasi never had any of their own kids, at least not that I know of, who knows what has taken place since 90.

I know from reliable sources Siddha used to (and probably still does) go surfing and snow skiing with his family regularly. At least up into the late 80's and early 90's. I lost track after the early 90's. Yea he turned into a real family man. Just in case you were wondering where your 25% was going. Political campaigns can be quite costly as well and I guess the money Down to Earth and his other businesses make do not pay the bills.

Lately I have been reading the life of Bhakitvinode Thakur, he was a householder guru, but he never took money from his disciples. He had a job and worked to support his family. On the contrary he gave money to the mendicant sadhus and supported them. That is the proper standard for a householder guru in the Vaishnava line. Guru is not supposed to be a business to support ones family and make a professional career.. A householder whether guru or not is supposed to set the example by having his own job and supporting the mendicants, sahdus, sanyasis' and celibate students. Bhaktivinode Thakur would not like what Siddha is doing.

Barbara, there is no 60 minute stuff. Initiate is right. We were misled, we made the choice ourselves no one tried to stop me from leaving either, I just slowly faded out, eventually they stopped inviting me to come to their gatherings, I moved away and lost track of most of them till now. They are not a Jim Jones like cult. Just misguided that’s all. The secrecy has to do with Siddhas eccentricity and the political campaigns, not any secret cult like rituals or what other people imagine. Siddha always liked to keep secrets, I think it makes him feel more powerful.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: initiate ()
Date: May 22, 2006 03:20PM

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devadasi
Initiate,

Thank you for sharing and being brave enough to speak your mind. I remember the pipe incident with Vaishnava dasi, it was a simple accident. But Siddha was so angry he said it was a conspiracy and the result would be she would have to die 10 years early!!!! This is so outrageous I kick my self in the butt for not leaving immediately after this incident!!! Then he said because she would die 10 years early that meant he would die 10 years early because they would both be going back to Krishna together. In other words because she got a little bump on the head we were all condemned for causing them both to leave the world 10 years early!!!!

Concerning Siddha becoming dependent on his followers. I remember an incident when everyone was condemned, I can't remember the exact reason, he got a hair in his soup or something like that, anyway he cut everyone off and would not accept anyone's service. He even tried washing his own cloths. This lasted about two days. He was not capable of doing anything for himself and so he had to forgive everyone to get his house cleaned, clothes washed and meals served.

Concerning offenses and scripture. Many things are exaggerated in the Veda, it says so within the Veda itself. The fear of offense was way overused in Chris's cult in order to keep people under control. Just a fear tactic, the same thing is used in Christianity, the fear of going to hell. But also one will find in the Vedic scripture that nothing is more powerful than service to God, so offenses are overridden by service and in a healthy situation in Krishna Con. it is love not fear that motivates the practitioners. That is why the association of sadhus is recommended. But Siddha never really had any association of sadhus because he already imagined he was one. He was as alienated away from his guru as he was his material father. Prabhupada tried to get him to have more of his association but Siddha refused thinking himself a great sadhu already.

We were told Srila Prabhupada was happy that Siddha did not need his association. Siddha told the story many times that Srila Prabhupada wanted him to come to India with him. Siddha said Prabhupada was very pleased that he did not feel it necessary to go to India with him. In fact Prabhpada said later, 'what kind of a sanyasi does not want to go to India with their guru?' He was very dismayed that Siddha did not want more of his association.

The picture that was painted concerning his guru recognizing him as a pure devotee and blessing his own outside movement was completely concocted by Sidhha and his top men. Maybe his top men really believed it. But all one has to do is go to the Prabhupada Folio (practically every word Prabhupada said is recorded) one will find that in fact Prabhupada denied the idea that Siddha was a pure devotee, Prabhupada says himself, 'I never said that, (that Siddha is a pure devotee), that is a concoction.' He says in another letter, 'Siddha has his own philosophy.' In a room converstation Srila Prabhpada is trying to convince one of his diciples NOT to be part of Siddhas group and he succeeds. The devotee was asking if she could join with Siddha and Prabhupada tells her emphatically NO.

Everyone knows it was practically a sin to use the word 'Prabhu' (master) Tusta himself would not allow anyone to call him that even his godbrother and people outside of Siddhas cult were asked not to call him that. That was a direct insult to Srila Prabhupada as Prabhupada himself told Tusta everyone should be referred to as Prabhu, (master).

72-12-14
Ahmedabad
14th December, 1972

Byron's Bay, Australia

My dear Tusta Krishna,

…You speak of pure devotee, that he is saktyavesa avatara, that we should obey him only--these things are the wrong idea. If anyone thinks like that, that a pure devotee should be obeyed and no one else, that means he is a nonsense. We advise everyone to address one another as Prabhu. Prabhu means master, so how the master should be disobeyed? Others, they are also pure devotees. All of my disciples are pure devotees. Anyone sincerely serving the spiritual master is a pure devotee, it may be Siddhasvarupa or others, a-Siddhasvarupa. This must be very clearly stated. It is not only that your Siddhasvarupa is a pure devotee and not others. Do not try to make a faction. ….. But others should not be misled. Anyone who is surrendered to the spiritual master is a pure devotee, it doesn't matter if Siddhasvarupa or non-Siddhasvarupa. Amongst ourselves one should respect others as Prabhu, master, one another. As soon as we distinguish here is a pure devotee, here is a non-pure devotee, that means I am a nonsense. Why you only want to be in the spiritual sky with Siddhasvarupa? Why not all?….

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

I shortened the letter, Tusta asks many questions, all the questions are completely neophyte questions. But even at that time Tusta was regarded as a 'pure devotee', while all others were demoted to being eternally neophytes. Just the big three were the pure ones, Tusta, Katyayani and Sudama. Everyone else the eternal neophyte.


Concerning others being demons, the Veda is clear that every soul will eventually go back home to God, demons, atheists, impersonalist even Siddha are all actually not seen as demons by the very advanced Vaishnava. And all the so-called demons in the Krishna pastimes are actually devotees just playing the role.

Siddha mixed up Christianity with Vaishnavism, not a good mix at all when employing the fear tactics. He just made it up as he went, and he is still making it up as he continues to go on his own way misleading so many.

Well spoken Devadasi,

That was not the first time he “quit” his followers. He had a long history of doing that. Sometimes he’d disappear for weeks or months and visit Tusta or Sudama (New Zealand or the Phillipines) or ? When devotees started taking him for granted and get too familiar or slack in their service, he’d get pissed off. When he would return after such an absence, everyone would fawn and be so grateful at his return and work extra hard to please him again. He really didn’t like having followers. He liked the benefits. He has managed his life in a way that he gets the percs with the least amount of contact with his servants.

I remember one incident when I didn't attend a kirtan. I had heard that he got angry at everybody and left early for some small offence and threatened to leave the islands. I thought that since I had not attended that I could intervene. He was living upstairs in the same house I lived in. I snuck past two of his devotee guards and knocked on his door. He let me in and we talked. I'm embarrassed that I cried and begged him to stay. He called one more person in the room and vented a little. The offender apologised and took a raking over the coals. He was very kind to me and by the end of the evening had calmed down and decided to forgive everyone. It took me a few years to realize how weird this was.

We didn’t use the word “Prahbu” because to us it was just phoney ISKCON lingo. Any custom or lexicon similar to ISKCON was rejected by us all. I also lived in an ISKCON temple prior to my involvement with Siddha. I’m not here to talk about that experience, but I’d take the Siddha years over my temple time. Saying the word “Prahbu” was not a sin, it was just uncool.

What you say about Bhaktivedanta’s letters may or may not be true. The editors have plenty of reason and ability to delete or concoct information. But your point that he is basically a fraud to Vaishnavism is true.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: initiate ()
Date: May 22, 2006 03:31PM

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just-googling

I also found it odd when the cook in Honolulu said she wanted to commit suicide, and I thought why was she not experiencing any spiritual bliss for serving so dearly the one and only representative of god on this planet? Ridiculous, ridiculous, ridiculous.

I remember the cook very well. I hope she is doing okay in her life now. she was a beautiful human being -- so loving, gentle, and kind -- so loyal and dedicated. She once said the oddest thing to me when she was depressed. She said that she felt like she was bleeding inside, that her spirit was bleeding. I felt a lot of compassion for her, but didn't know how to help, but to say the usual platitudes. I feel like such an idiot now. I wish I had taken her to the nearest shrink.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: devadasi ()
Date: May 22, 2006 03:51PM

<<<What you say about Bhaktivedanta’s letters may or may not be true. The editors have plenty of reason and ability to delete or concoct information. But your point that he is basically a fraud to Vaishnavism is true.[/quote]>>>



When I left I did my own research. I can tell you any unbiased researcher would come up with the same conclusion. If you read all the folio information you will see there is no conspiracy to misrepresent what Srila Prabhupada said about Siddha, sometimes he praises him and sometimes he does not. None of the praise was deleted anymore than the criticism was made up. At no time does Prabhupada say he is more advanced than any of his other followers. In some letters you find Prabhupada giving instructions for others to instruct Siddha and correct him gently. And the Tusta letter is not a fabrication. It is accepted by those favorable to Siddha and those unfavorable to Siddha. It is not a concoction. Siddha was not anything out of the ordinary as far as Srila Prabhupada was concerned. I spoke with many devotees both in and out of Iskcon who had no biased against SIddha, the story was always the same. Siddha always did what Siddha wanted, not what Srila Prabhupada wanted. He never actually surrendered. Prabhuapada was actually very unhappy at his independence and unwillignness to cooperate in Iskcon. This same story is told by people who left Iskcon after Prabhupada left and by people stll in Iskcon. He made his own enemies from the beginning by expecting special treatment he never got. He did not have the humility to bow his head to anyone not even Prabhupada. If he agreed with Prabhpada on something he would follow, if not he would do it his own way. That is the truth.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: barabara ()
Date: May 22, 2006 05:45PM

Initiate writes:

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barbara,
I can't answer your questions. I can see you are trying to make a case and eqauate the group with Jim Jones or something. It really was not dangerous in that way. I don't want to stretch the truth, it's weird enough as it is.

I know of no mainstream church today that recommends murder as one of three possible responses to blasphemy.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: devadasi ()
Date: May 22, 2006 08:54PM

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barabara
Initiate writes:

Quote

barbara,
I can't answer your questions. I can see you are trying to make a case and eqauate the group with Jim Jones or something. It really was not dangerous in that way. I don't want to stretch the truth, it's weird enough as it is.

Isn't it rather presumptuous and rude of you to accuse me of trying to "make a case" because I asked questions about what you had written?
In my opinion, these are alarming teachings.

I know of no mainstream church today that recommends murder as one of three possible responses to blasphemy.


Barbara,

The actual injunction is this.

If one blasphemes God or his representative one should do one of three things.

1. Defeat the blasphemer in argument so that he understands his error and is corrected.

If Number one is impossible
2. Cut out the tongue of the blasphemer (not murder him)

If both are impossible
3. Go out of the range of his speech.

In the history of Vaishnavism number two has never been used. There are no such cases recorded that anyone had their tongue cut out by a devotee because they blasphemed.

The idea is to show how bad it is to blaspheme God or His representative. It is not to be taken literally. Although as pointed out by initiate, a real fanatic might try to do something like that. But I never heard of that happening in Vaishnavism.

However in the history of Christianity it was done in many cases during inquisitions. Cutting out of tongues has been employed in countless cases through the history of Christianity. It is still popular in Islamic countries as well and is done regularly under Islamic law.

I understand your concern but only a real fanatic would take the injunction literally.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: initiate ()
Date: May 23, 2006 03:22AM

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devadasi
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barabara
Initiate writes:

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barbara,
I can't answer your questions. I can see you are trying to make a case and eqauate the group with Jim Jones or something. It really was not dangerous in that way. I don't want to stretch the truth, it's weird enough as it is.

Isn't it rather presumptuous and rude of you to accuse me of trying to "make a case" because I asked questions about what you had written?
In my opinion, these are alarming teachings.

I know of no mainstream church today that recommends murder as one of three possible responses to blasphemy.

Barbara,

The actual injunction is this.

If one blasphemes God or his representative one should do one of three things.

1. Defeat the blasphemer in argument so that he understands his error and is corrected.

If Number one is impossible
2. Cut out the tongue of the blasphemer (not murder him)

If both are impossible
3. Go out of the range of his speech.

In the history of Vaishnavism number two has never been used. There are no such cases recorded that anyone had their tongue cut out by a devotee because they blasphemed.

The idea is to show how bad it is to blaspheme God or His representative. It is not to be taken literally. Although as pointed out by initiate, a real fanatic might try to do something like that. But I never heard of that happening in Vaishnavism.

However in the history of Christianity it was done in many cases during inquisitions. Cutting out of tongues has been employed in countless cases through the history of Christianity. It is still popular in Islamic countries as well and is done regularly under Islamic law.

I understand your concern but only a real fanatic would take the injunction literally.

THANKS DEVADASI FOR CLARIFYING THAT!

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: barabara ()
Date: May 23, 2006 03:37AM

initiate wrote:

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Just by me saying all of this is considered blasphemy and devotees are instructed from the Krishna scriptures to do one of three things if they hear blasphemy of a pure devotee; kill the blasphemer; and if you can’t do this, then kill yourself. If you can’t do that; then run away.

And maybe now there are followers of Siddha crazy enough to go after me, but I really don’t pose a threat to his businesses or income.

devadasi wrote:

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Although as pointed out by initiate, a real fanatic might try to do something like that.

Yes. Thank you for clarifying this. Only a fanatic would consider doing something like that.

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Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: just-googling ()
Date: May 23, 2006 04:19AM

More reflections on the post-Siddha experience:

WAI LANI: Yes, this is none other than Vaisnava dasi. It seems as though the nasty bump on the head did not slow her down after seeing her dancing around on the "Horses" video!

THE COOK: Yes, she was a devout and religious girl. She was very, very skinny - no doubt was feeling guilty about eating when she should be cooking for the master(?). I remember seeing piles and piles of dishes in her sink - all dishes for her master. (I sometimes think the lack of food made some of us go a little mental - any more thoughts on this topic???)

CUTTING OUT TONGUES: Like a lot of stuff printed in their literature (Vedic scriptures translated by A.C.), you had to take it with a grain of salt. For instance, there was a lot of stuff that depicted women as inferior to men, but in Siddha's group, the women were treated as equals, as witnessed by the position of Katyayani, Vaisnava dasi, etc.

HOWARD HUGHES PARALLEL: From what I can gather, the eccentric billionaire Howard Hughes also had a germ phobia and required people to wear surgical masks around him. Was this the fellow who made the biggest wooden airplane in the world, "The Spruce Goose" that was a big flop and never made it off the ground? I suppose Siddha's political attempts could be his own personal "Spruce Goose" - as none of his candidates got elected into any real important political posts. I really don't know what the goal of getting one of his men into big positions like senator was.... Was it to change the laws about cow killing? against homosexual marriages?? against pollution??? Maybe to make Oahu a pollution free zone so he could breathe cleaner air???

MORE ON POLITICS: I just saw on the Mike Gabbard website that his daughter, Tulsi, was in Iraq as a soldier!!!!!!! I wonder if this was Siddha's idea to make the Gabbard family look like the All-American rednecks that might pull in more votes???

A.C. TALKING ON SIDDHA: I was surprised to read the letter by A.C. to Tusta about Siddha being the only pure devotee... Indeed, I was always given the impression that A.C. thought Siddha was the greatest. (I wonder if A.C. was offended when Siddha was making fun of the impersonalist gurus and how they can generate power - and in one of his cartoons he had a yogi with sparks coming out of him, who was called A.C.-D.C. !!!)

THE BIG THREE - Yes, Tusta, Sudama and Katyayani were certainly the big three that you had to pay your obeisances to... Tusta has now passed away, Sudama may have joined the "Social League of Blooped Sanyasis" (SLOBS), but Katyayani is still a cool cat...

PAYING OBEISANCES: Bowing down before Siddha was REQUIRED etiquette, and if you didn't do this he would tell you to do it. I have personally seen this happen several times (myself included)... The situation was in his apartment and he would go into the other room for a few seconds and then reappear in the room we were in.... (The etiquette says that every time he enters the room you have to bow down)... After he did this several times, I thought this is ridiculous, so I didn't bow down when he came back into the room again. This certainly seems to contradict the "Siksastaka" verses where Chaitanya says something like "... offers all respect to others and does not expect to receive any respect." (or something to that effect)... however, we were all thinking that Siddha was god's rep so he was above all these rules!

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