What was the "spiritual" practice called the "dreaming" that Butler and others indulged in during early years?
What did this practice have to do with the Krishna precepts?

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gulag
What was the "spiritual" practice called the "dreaming" that Butler and others indulged in during early years?
What did this practice have to do with the Krishna precepts?

Come to think of it. I think I did hear about this -- it might have been where followers laid down on their backs and Sai did a kind of guided meditation (imagination, fantasy, hypnosis, living off of drug residues in the brain -- who knows?) This is info from a 3rd party and I was not there, so take it with a handfull of speculative salt!

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devadasi
Yea I remember all broken marriages and remarriages. Although I know many people who followed Siddha were really sincere, I began to see most were not really following what was written in the books and when Siddha himself married a disciple who was divorced from another one of his disciples that was a little too much and hard to accept. Especially considering he had so strongly preached that one should be married only one time and if it did not work that person should give up the idea of marriage and do everything in Krishnas service. Then when he got married and it was so blatantly obvious he had gone against what he was teaching and the teachings of the Vaishnava religion he flip-flopped and said if there is no sex in the second marriage then it is ok to have a partner just to serve Krishna together. Just looked like a smokescreen to me. I think everyone including Siddha himself is/was in denial about the reason he got married. It was just plain attachment for the opposite sex nothing more and nothing less. But no one in the group would admit it. Nothing spiritual about a Vaishnava sannyasi giving up sannyasa and marrying his spiritual daughter. Even being alone with a women by Vaishnava standards is considered breaking celibacy.

I am not saying the standard of celibacy within the Vaishnava religion is bad or good what I am saying is he did not follow the standard. So I realized he was not really a bona-fide guru in the Vaishnava religion which was what I thought I was following at the time.

Not only was he attached to the opposite sex, but also to his position. He could give up neither. So I realized he was not a real sadhu.

Devadasi,
Did you experience any guilt or fears after you left? Did people give you a hard time or shun you? Do you still follow any of the practices? 16 rounds a day on a crowd clicker (LOL) - the 4 regualtive principles? Did you have any experiences with the schools that were started? Do you feel you got ripped off? Any residual regrets, anger?

Initiate,
Yea it started off sweet and he appeared to be a real holy man, the chanting had a lot of potency and things were really down to earth and simple, but then when he started to build his empire, (on the backs of his followers who came for spiritual enlightenment), and it just started looking more and more mundane and 'unspiritual' as time went by. Even the terminology changed. In the beginning it was all called 'service to Krishna', later it was just called 'work.' If you 'worked' for Siddha and screwed up you could get 'fired'. It was all turning completely mundane. You could even be 'fired' from his personal service and association. I witnessed a few of the firings from the background.

In the beginning he was so right on about many of the degradations of society, it was hard not to believe he was a real sadhu, he had renounced material things and spoke the truth in a charismatic and attractive way. He inspired many to give up a material way of life.

I was particularly attracted by his simplicity in the beginning and his criticism of gurus who use their powers for material gain. I remember him criticizing a godbrother guru because he wore an expensive watch, but before it was over he himself was living in ocean front estates in places lik Malibu, Honolulu, Lanikai and other posh spots around the world like Sedona Arizona. Riding in Lincoln Continental cars and chartering lear jets for his travels.

In the beginning he had criticized gurus for using their powers for material gain but he just became like most of them. While I was still there on one occaision I remember him referring to his work and his 'professional life'. So even he began to think of himself as a 'professional'.

Inititate, I never knew his first puppy love was oriental, that explains why he promoted Katyayani to a 'pure devotee', so early one, when in reality she was just a beautiful oriental women with a good nature. Just a likeable person. Siddha obviously wanted to mold her. It also explains why he married an oriental. I looked at the link for Wei Lana his yogi guru wife. Really professionally done. She looks to have become as good a 'professional' as him.

His life and the life of his followers (including myself) just turned and became competely on the mundane platform. I guess for many it just became a way of life and the jading was a slow process, just like any material conditioning.

His life is so completely opposite to the stories you read about Vaishnava sadhus in the Vaishnava scripture.. Usually they start off materially opulent with wives and family, gradually giving up these attachments for spiritual realization. He started off a mendicant who had stauchly given up family life and materialism but used those who became attracted to him based on his renunciation to build an empire and ended up materially prosperous with a wife and surrogate family. It is the antithesis to the lives of modern Vaishnava sadhus. His life is the opposite of the many sahus who became regarded as acharayas (spiritual leaders) in the Gaudiya Vaishnava line since the time of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur the guru of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami.

I am not saying material things and family life are bad, I am saying his life does not represent the Vaishnava tradition and he ended up looking more like a 'new age' guru than the Krishna Conscious sadhu he started out as.

Initiate,

I am curious if you know what all the homophobia was about? Was there something hidden there? Also you were there earlier than me by at least a few years. I did go to the Kauai farm a couple of times but by the time I came it was closing down. I never heard of the LSD stuff till years after I left the group nor did anyone tell me that Siddha had actually started giving initiations before he ever took it himself. By the time I got there many things were already covered up and the followers trained not to say anything about the very early days that might arose suspicion. I know some writings were burned and tapes ordered destroyed as the new agenda started to unfold. Was there any truth in Siddha taking LSD while chanting? Some say that was the only real enlightenment he got and his renunciation was no more than sexual frustration. Much of this stuff was kept secret from the later followers and still is. Also were you there when all the germ phobias started and everyone had to wear a germ mask while in his house or close association.
I was and even some of his top devotees hated the idea and thought it rediculous, they didn't come out and say it but I could tell by their behaviour they thought it was way overboard, all the germ paranoia.

Actually I remember clearly when the new policy for wearing germ masks first came about. I was in a room with 4 or 5 initiated disciples. When we were told about the germ mask policy one of Siddhas biggest disciples said blatantly, 'I am not going to wear a mask!" He then just walked out. Later he abjectly gave in and wore one along with everyone else. Siddha had a way of getting anything he wanted from his followers.

Yes, I was there on Kauai also in those days - and I also remember these days as being the greatest time of my life - However, there is a part of me now that regrets the many, many, many years of spiritual practices while neglecting the material side of life... neglecting career, investing, etc. to the point where 30 odd years later one wishes one had worked for oneself instead of for Krishna...

On the subject of marriage, sanyasis, etc., I remember hearing a recorded conversation between Tusta Krishna and Siddha, saying that he (Tusta) was still having sexual urges (or something to this effect), despite all the chanting and serving, etc. etc.... Well, if such a great and pure devotee as this was feeling this, what to speak of lesser mortals as myself... I think the explanation was that in this day and age, Kali Yuga, that renounced order was not advisable, and so we did not question it any more...

However, I never knew that Vaisnava dasi was previously married and had 5 children!!!!!.... Amazing how information like this was kept secret from the rank and file!

I was also wondering who now took over the position of "Number 2" after Tusta departed from this world... and after Sudama Vipra and Katyayani had been "banished"....

Hi Devidasi,

Regarding your question of homophobia, my impression is that it was a great target for criticism in order to boost his political agenda, as most of the Christians were also against the laws that favored homosexuals, and thus more potential votes. Maybe you saw the info about the recent political campaign in Honolulu with Mike Gabbard running for office. I can gather that there were countless lectures on the subject to the point that all the disciples could talk about was connected to anti-homosexuality.

Just as at one time there was the anti-ISKON sentiment prevalent to the point that one would feel very guilty just for glancing at someone wearing saffron robes!

Yes, I remember the ridiculous germ phobias, and the big "giardia" scare in Honolulu. One time I offered a garland to Siddha and one to Vaisnava dasi and the feeling was one that they were so high and mightly and I was just some sort of scumbag ass - this was such a terrible feeling that I will never forget to this day.

I have recently had the experience of listening to musical recordings by Butler, and viewed music videos featuring Wai Lana, posted on her website.

Perhaps the benefits of being the leader of a "spiritual" group are similar to those given to media celebrities.

I wonder if Mr. Butler isn't a frustrated would-be rock star. The group certainly seems to put a lot of emphasis on recording music and videos. I would guess that there is a ready-made market for these among group members.

Initiate,
My only regrets are I did not move on out of the group sooner. I also regret the necessity for websites like this. I regret so many people move in and out of cultish groups and end up thinking they represent the religion said cults have deviated away from. At least you did not give up religion altogether. But it is sad you have such a bad taste towards Vaishnavism in general. I am sorry for that and I apologize to you for people like Siddha. I also regret so many pseudo gurus appeared after the departure of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami and that so many people were misled and hurt by them.

As for the celibacy question, I think it reprehensible that celibates like the Christian Mother Theresa and the many saints in all religions including the Vaishnava line who were able to control sex desire and redirect it in God's service, will be minimized by people who promote the idea celibacy is impossible in this age or who by their example like getting married after taking a vow of celibacy then remaining in positions of authority do not have the decency to just admit they could not control their sex urge and give up playing spiritual master and posing as spiritual leaders. From the Catholic priests (where it applies not all Catholic priests fall into the category) to the pseudo Vaishnava gurus, I find them all reprehensible for remaining in a position of authority posing themselves as saintly when in fact they are not fit to be religious leaders and should simply step down if they cannot follow what it is they teach or the guidelines of their own religion and position.


Concerning feeling like a scumbag, I get the drift completely. But if you read the Vaishnava scripture one finds that a real sadhu feels himself lower than all others, not above, and a real sadhu flames whatever good there is in a person and overlooks the bad to the extreme. As far as thinking others might contaminate him with germs I would have to say a real sadhu would have to laugh uproariously at such ridiculous paranoia.

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gulag
What was the "spiritual" practice called the "dreaming" that Butler and others indulged in during early years?
What did this practice have to do with the Krishna precepts?

It was called 'mystic sleep' , a type of meditation that was supposed to give you the benifit of many hours of sleep condensed into a few minutes of meditation. It had nothing to do with Krishna Con. precepts. Like so many things it was just something Siddha liked doing.