Freeatlast! :

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I guess one day she just packed up and left and then some police showed up at the center I don't know for what reason, some people were saying that she had a nervous breakdown or something and that she went back to her hometown, anyway after this happened uddhava was chastised by jagad guru and he made her take down all of his pictures in the temple room and everywhere.

Cultreporter :

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Yes I had a nervous breakdown and went back to my home town too :wink: I think this has happened to a few of the posters here. The police wouldn't have turned up unless someone called them and JGs reaction is very suspicious and a bit creepy.

Suzi :

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How could JG have found that out? Are all the disciples watched by someone or would the center have had to reported this? Why would one devotee so important that this uddavva would have been chastised by the big cheese himself?[/color:e38a687f74]

Hi Suzi, It is not that one devotee is important to JG - that would absolutely never happen in his world.

I read in what Freeatlast wrote that the police had come on the girl's behalf.

Without someone who was directly involved putting their side of the story an understanding of why this reaction is available through an understanding of how SoI works.

Disciples have made a definite committment to JG and in making that commitment they have accepted all his claims such as that he can tell their true soul, that he takes on their bad karma (which makes him siiiick) etc. In their head he is essentially God.

JG makes sure they are subservient and grovelling at his feet (what they call 'serious enough') before he initiates them with initiation in SOI being like a much sought after and highly competitive prize.

Add to that that following the example of JG, particularly over the years and to the extent to become a disciple is an insular situation, cut off from the outside world and detatched from it's many realities. Following on from JG's example they are extremely paranoid about any outside authorities or influences.

In their "reasoning" any questioning or contradicting is taken as a threat. They take it as a personal threat because they no longer have the will or ability to idenitfy as individuals.

So something like the police coming around and asking questions is taken as a personal threat, and at least one disciple would have had fear struck into them by this, and most likely all of them. When they are scared there is only one person to run to - it is JG that protects them from the big bad outside world.

JG does have people reporting to him on disciples, particularly long term students that are desperate to be in his graces so that they too can achieve the coveted disciple status. He has his spies, and disciples that dwell in his shadow have theirs to try and gain favour with him as well.

SOI is a world of fear and lies. As a personal example I know that Brendon deliberately engaged in MSN conversation with me that were completely unneccessary and text messages and even asked me to write him letters about how I felt about certain things - when I was living with him mind you and we could have just spoken - and I know that he passed these MSN conversations and other communications that we had around to certain disciples and followers. He was effectively spying on me. He would also run and check whethr this or that is ok and his position on certain things could completely and radically alter according to what the disciples said. This is the sort of behaviour that they engage in.

Chasitsement is certainly not special from JG. The pictures would have been taken down to protect JG as "the whole world (except for his loyal devotees cannot undertand and is envious of him)" :roll:

It sounds like the SOI devotees/disciples find the down-trodden to join the group. Do devotees get rewarded somehow if they bring someone into the group?

How does their indoctrination work? Is it through sleep deprivation, fear? Is it the Gita that they follow? Do they have to memorize readings of the Gita or CB's writings? Are they deprived of food or programmed to believe that food isn't necessary because it is just taking care of the material body?

Were devotees followed around? Are they programmed to believe their biological family is bad or off limits, or how to relate to them?

Once they decide to be a follower, is it decided what work they will do and do they have to give some of their income to CB? If so, is it directly to him or to the local disciples, like uddava at the Lotus Garden site?

Does the boss lady have privileged status in the center?

I was only involved for 2 years and when I finally accepted this it was emotionally shattering, I can’t even describe the pain I felt, praying 8 hours a day with all of my heart and being, crying in my room because I knew it wasn’t true, because my spiritual master was just a salesman on TV.
I haven’t picked up my beads once since I left, I haven’t looked at my pictures of krsna but can’t bring myself to throw them away, I’ve been so fucked up in the head and I don’t know what to do, I love these people but I hate there guru.

What was the propaganda that you could not accept? Why did you opt out? Were there any barriers put in your way of getting out? Did anyone at the center put up barriers to you leaving? Were you made to feel guilty? Why do you think you can't shake it completely but has to struggle to do so?
Has anyone out there gone through deprogramming?

Yes to all. In more specific terms

Do devotees get rewarded somehow if they bring someone into the group?

Bringing in new people is a good way to be recognised for nomination to be a disciple. How this works (I am sure it was different in the past but this is what SOI has evolved to, and has been since the mid 90s at least) because Siddha is in his mansion counting his money and plotting politics his disciples are the ones that decide who should become disciples. He will most likely never meet these people. The only way to be a disciple is to be rich or have something he wants ie- be willing to show that you will work your butt of for him at a centre helping an existing disciple. You make friends with a disciple and you will get a good word to the man.

Ash and I joke about Krishna dollars. They are all desperate to accumulate as much spiritual wealth as possible. Just like ISKCON there are many spiritual hustlers that are always chasing the big score, bring in lots of people or one really rich or hopefully famous or influential person or do something really great for the spiritual master, like make Vege Chips or a business to give to him. That is the reward they are chasing after. Being a disciple should not be about prestige and power over others, but it is.

How does their indoctrination work?

Simple answer - bring people in under the pretence of meditation and yoga classes or the work programs in the US, slow introduction, constantly testing to see if they are suitable (in SOI - are they homophobic, can they keep secrets, do they have connections to non devotees, are they willing to give these up, are they willing to 'serve' ie- become a slave for Krishna) Some people will never be targetted to fully become students. Examples why because they are married to a non interested person, not interested to 'serve' not starry eyed enough about Chris.

Is it through sleep deprivation, fear?

Low protein diet, sugguestive meditation methods, inducing loss of personal idenity (the who are you philosophy of Chris), repetition and chanting (japa) fear of not being saved before it is too late (re Chris' armageddon predicitons) They are fond of saying look at this murder/rape/famine etc you can see everywhere what is happening in this age, this is why the world is like it is because people dont have Krishna. They have an extremely negative world view, obsessed with focussing on all the faults in the world and feeling relieved that they are "free from all that".

Is it the Gita that they follow?

Debateable whether they follow it but they follow Chris Butlers interpretation of it. They only accept up to 1977 translations by ACB before he died and as long as the ISKCON contact details in the front are blacked out.

Do they have to memorize readings of the Gita or CB's writings?

You are expected to listen to as many lectures as possible these are hand chosen by disiciples as to what you are allowed to hear. The main focus is on service. Scripture is not highly regarded. Chanting and japa is considered service.

Are they deprived of food or programmed to believe that food isn't necessary because it is just taking care of the material body?

Programmed yes. Devotee diet does not leave many food options and most people do not get (or give to their children) healthy nutriton. Devotees eat all the time but the food is not substantial, especially if working.

Were devotees followed around?

They are here yes. Tabs are kept on those targetted to be students. I am followed now and have been threatened and approached. Before they knew where I was there was a very keen interest in finding my location. You may want to find out more here in the database about love bombing. This is a key practice in SOI and most cults.

Are they programmed to believe their biological family is bad or off limits, or how to relate to them?

Totally. Love does not exist, is just a material desire. You family is not really your family, just random souls that you have encountered in this life and you have no real connection to. You should never talk to anyone that is offensive (asks questions or sugguest SOI is a dangerous cult)

Once they decide to be a follower, is it decided what work they will do and do they have to give some of their income to CB?

If you are a student you can be given a job in a cult business. If not working in that capacity you will be given some sort of service to do. Chris says give 25% and that he is so kind because the Vedasa say 50%

If so, is it directly to him or to the local disciples, like uddava at the Lotus Garden site?

I cant answer for those places but here it is taken directly out of the wages before they even get them and the disciples that own the businesses would pass it on. There is no way to send Siddha money that students are aware of. Most everything runs through disciples and that is what leaves so many people open to being scammed contributing to bogus projects and how disciples get a bit of comfort for themselves.

Does the boss lady have privileged status in the center?

Again can't answer for there but disciples are considered above everyone else and many of them use this to their every advantage.

Have you seen the new website? www.chriskcon.com

quote/I read in what freeatlast wrote that the police had come on the girls behalf/quote

cultreporter I don't believe I ever insinuated that the police had come on the girls behalf, I think what I said was that (I had heard from a student)that the day after she left the police showed up for what reason I don't know. Just thought I should make that clear.

I was in the cult for a few years and I did come and go as I pleased and kept aloof from the group as much as possible but at 16 I was told that there was a devotee who was assigned specifically to look out for me and all the other younger students without parents. There was a disciple assigned to accept money on Siddha's behalf that every body knew about.

Devotees are not rewarded per se and from my experience there is not a recruitment drive and a lot of newer people do not stay long. Some of the disciples run advertisements for meditation classes. There were younger people that I knew of who went to Hawaii and engaged in door to door preaching but there was none of that going on where I was even when Siddha was in Australia for a whole year. A lot like you say are down-trodden and often very lonely.
The indoctrination is that one needs a guru. Without a guru you cannot know the highest happiness and get off the wheel of birth, death and suffering.

If you are involved in the group and wish to engage in some work like preaching from your home or anything else you may find will be helpful to others you will be told by disciples that any activities should be approved by siddha first. So you write Siddha a letter and you shouldn't expect to get a response. The only choice you then have is to travel to Hawaii and try to obtain a service job from him.

Otherwise you may work and it is suggested by Siddha that 50% (he must have lowered his standards since according to Cara) of your money be offered to Krishna as it is not really your money, it belongs to God and God gave you that money. Alternatively Siddha suggests that devotees only take what they need to survive and give the rest to Krishna. Of course since Krishna is not present offering it to Siddha is the next best thing. If you do work it doesn't matter on the job as your service to guru becomes giving him money although you will be highly criticised and looked down upon if you work anywhere that contributes selling of any kind of meat. Same if you live with another person that eats meat. If you wash your clothes at a meat eating person's (or demons as they are endearingly titled) house you will be highly criticised. Same with a homosexual. Talking to ISKCON people, eating their food or listening to their singing is contaminating you. Avoiding society altogether is a good idea.

Food is difficult and yes it is taught that too much sleep or food is not conducive to spiritual life. SoI are highly fanatical about food and I was even given a list of food additives that "may" contain animal products and they are highly against any processed foods anyway. So you find that it is very hard to eat so you begin to eat the most simple foods as you can. Also enjoyment of food is taught to be a way of enslaving you to the material world. There was a story of a devotee in India who only ate raw rice out of a human skull so that he would always be aware of his oncoming death and that he would never become attached to the taste of well cooked food. It is regularly stated that Bhaktivedanta slept for 4 hours a day so you get the sense that sleeping as little as possible is the best way to go.

It is taught that your mind is imperfect therefore engaging in mental speculation (or thinking) is a futile practice. It is also said that idle chatter is worse than death and when you speak it should only be either purposeful or about Krishna and guru.

Siddha can turn a discussion about a lovely, duck-filled pond into a rant about death, sexual perversion and homosexuality. His three favourite subjects and fear of leaving is probably the strongest tactic used. And guilt as you say as the opportunity to meet a pure devotee only comes along once in thousands of lifetimes. So you are taught that you are in a highly privilleged position that is an extremely unitelligent to throw away. Siddha's teaching of how undesirable the lives of regular people in society are means that you also begin to feel guilt and distaste for a normal existence. This is then affirmed as proof that a life outside world is tasteless. But really it is mostly tasteless because that is what you are repeated told.

It is taught that without guru you are merely a walking corpse about to die at any moment. He constantly talks about the urgency to quit suffering in this material world and he goes to great lengths to explain the most extremely unpleasant things about this world.

This is the ideal of siddha's mission if you are able to give up your whole life for Siddha having a job where you give him all your money have children that you will bring up to be Krishna conscious and you spend 2-3 hours chanting on beads with an hour or so of morning and nightly offerings to Krishna, listening to a forty minute lecture of Siddha's and some include a reading from the Bhagavad gita and if you can give up all attraction any enjoyment in this material world of food, sex and not paying attention to the media or television then you have achieved perfection in this life. Otherwise you should be striving for the above and you will be eternally happy...

or so the story goes...

By the end you are so starved of friendship and enjoyment in life yet you are so extremely scared to leave that you will be condemning yourself to death. You come to believe you really need this guru or life is completely meaningless. As you can see from this thread the guy is just an arrogant, well-off, paranoid, neurotic and not worth the chair he sits on.

I think control in keeping you involved in the cult occurs more for those as Cara described who are caught completely and those who are of certain material value. Others they not overly concerned about.

The reason I left was that it was great in the beginning and you do feel like you have found a real home but after a while as you become more and more isolated from society the lonliness and misery begins to set in. Also many of the so called truths like that the moon is further from the sun made me question as this is clearly not the case. The behavior of the guru makes you begin to wonder as you do expect a person in this position to not act so childishly and uncompassionately. Finally I was too lazy to sit there bored for two hours everyday doing my rounds. You just sit there saying to God "Isn't there something more productive I could be doing than this?"

Oh and he told a story how he grew up not knowing he was a white guy. i figured he is either lying, exaggerating or completely nuts.

Oh and here's a few quotes from the person they call the guru of the entire universe:

On Abortion being murder:

"Everybody also knows that there's prejudice against the blacks. The blacks aren't happy in that sense. Black people are unwanted." ..."Should they have killed the Chinese people? Yes, if they accept the theory that unwanted persons should be killed."


"People will start suggesting that we should become homosexuals to solve the population problem. I am just waiting for the Planned Parenthood Association to back up homosexuality as the practical solution to overpopulation. They might even teach it in schools."


"And maybe, if [a bisexual] becomes more free, he will come to the point of having sex even with pigs and dogs." ..."This is actually going on in the United States and Europe."


"IF YOU ARE A CELIBATE IN SAN FRANCISCO, THEY THINK YOU ARE STRANGE, BUT IF YOU HAVE SEX WITH A FIRE HYDRANT, THEY THINK YOU ARE ALL RIGHT."

[www.iskcon.net]

Here's one for Private eye on giving presents on christmas:

"Now Christmas is supposed to be the celebration of Jesus' appearance day. So these people who use this day of all days to teach love for mammon, must be seen as the anti-Christs."

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freeatlast!
cultreporter I don't believe I ever insinuated that the police had come on the girls behalf, I think what I said was that (I had heard from a student)that the day after she left the police showed up for what reason I don't know. Just thought I should make that clear.

I wasn't there and no one has told me about this so I have no idea what happened. I did say that this is what I read by what you had written so did not assert that you had said this. If I have bothered you in anyway I apologise.

Co-incidence maybe, who knows? It is still the sign of a cult to run around taking all the pictures down. The point still is that police do not just come for no reason. Someone had called them and by the reaction it is obvious that it was not to SoI's advantage. I've seen how they react to police interest in them as individuals and as an organisation. As in everything they are ill-equipped due to being out of touch with the wider world, harbour irrational fear and a serious persecution complex and run to hide.

The followers may not realise that they are hiding everything not because how other people will react or think it is weird, but because it is weird and most people would realise pretty quickly they are dealing with a cult. Chris Butler sure as hell knows this though so he instills these ideas as a method of self-preservation.

:o I just checked out Mike Gabbard's "STAND UP FOR AMERICA" website. What a bunch of red-neck patriotic claptrap. I almost expected to see an ad for MacDonald's somewhere on the site. Stand Up For America - the biggest cow-killing country in the world.

:?

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emntk
... It is regularly stated that Bhaktivedanta slept for 4 hours a day so you get the sense that sleeping as little as possible is the best way to go.

:( THIS IS TRUE. One is made to feel extremely guilty for sleeping 8 hours a night, and even worse if your body needs more sleep. Getting up at 4 a.m. is encouraged. Of course, some people stretched this to the max, and tried to engage in a life of hard work (labeled: [i:ebcacf0554]devotional service[/i:ebcacf0554]) and with little sleep... One guy fell asleep at the wheel of his vehicle and drove over a cliff...

There is a picture depicting the person who likes to sleep too much taking birth as a grizzly bear!

Apparently some other cults use this sleep deprivation technique also.

:o

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Otherwise you may work and it is suggested by Siddha that 50% (he must have lowered his standards since according to Cara)

I heard a lecture when he said "some people dont want to follow the Vedic injunction of giving half their income to Krishna. I only expect that my followers give half of that."

I know what employees of cult businesses get paid and what the working conditions are like and the net rate of pay is extremely poor - I worked out that if you add 25% to it it comes up way closer to the typical paycheck.

Imagine working 40 hours per week as a store manager for $585 after tax. That is just over $14 an hour, Minus about a quarter of that to put it into American dollars. Minimum wage here is now $13.47 up from $12 something. Add a dollar an hour to account for tax and that means that the manager is getting paid $3 more an hour than the shop girl (actually I was the shop girl and I didnt get a cent)

I was told that if I got a job at VegeChips I would be working for Siddha, doing nice service helping to distribute prashadam and contributing money to service. In this conversation I asked about the half described in the Vedas and was told you only have to give a quarter. I asked who did you give the money to and was told that it was already taken out straight out of your pay. Least they pay you something now - that whole company was built on devotional service.

They only employee devotees in these businesses. Disciples hand over plenty - I am sure trying to outdo each other.

Think about this. If you had 1000 followers and they each gave $10 a week for a year that is $520 000 in your pocket untraceable to authorities so why would you pay tax. Between the businesses he owns and the money he still rakes in off everyone else's back Chris must be pretty rich by now.

Still don't stop him from getting upset over I who has nothing tho :wink: