Those who doubt feel betrayed and angry
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: July 25, 2010 05:17AM
terre, dharma, and googling -
I thought you might like the following quotes from the book
The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad
"When abuses are publicly exposed, the leader either denies
or justifies the behaviors by saying that ‘enemies of the
truth’ or ‘the forces of evil’ are trying to subvert his true message.
Core members of the group have a huge
vested interest in believing him, as their identity is wrapped
up in believing in his righteousness. Those who begin to doubt
him at first become confused and depressed, and later feel betrayed
and angry.
The ways people deny and justify are similar: Since
supposedly no one who is not enlightened can truly understand
the motives of one who is, any criticism can be discounted as
a limited perspective. Also, any behavior on the part of the guru,
no matter how base, can be imputed to be some secret teaching
or message that needs deciphering."
[[b]WARNING! CULT THOUGHT STOPPING PHRASES FOLLOW![/b]
In the case of the Butler cult, people deny and justify by saying that the guru does these things out of self-sacrifice, who leaves the blissful spiritual sky to save the demons wallowing in maya out of his great mercy. The following APOLOGIES, buzz phrases, typical of Butler followers, illustrate the above statements:
"It really pains Jagad Guru to live the way he does, but he is not attached to this world and uses everything to serve G0d."
"He suffers and gets ill due to taking on all the sins of his disciples."
"Thank you for the[Butler] quotes ... I don't know whether Butler's ego is doing a lot of that talking or whether in his mind it hurts him to do it but he does it as but one of the many great sacrifices he has to make."
“...harsh words and stances is that it is essentially a form of "attack therapy" / "surgery" / "depolarization" that is meant to reduce your attachment to False Ego.”
"We are grasping with every bit of strength to hold onto our material addictions. They can help you. They will cut/rip off the tumors in your Heart... However, it is not pleasant. And, very few are willing to undergo the procedure... "
"And, because God is infinitely merciful... you must be willing. If not, no worries. Go, Maya-devi is waiting for You, Dear Ones"
“So... hypothetically speaking, when Angels mercifully choose to go to Hell to offer the very few Demons who are willing to listen and ready for a serious change salvation... well... I guess the Demons are going to find the Angels not very tolerant of their activities... the Angels already know that only those Demons who can withstand the harsh truth are going to have a chance at getting out. The others need more time to stew in their "independence" away from their Creator.”]
More from The Guru Papers:
"The power of conversion experiences lies in the psychological
shift from confusion to certainty." (p.65)
"People whose power is based on the surrender of others
develop a repertoire of techniques for deflecting and undermining
anything that questions or challenges their status, behavior,
or beliefs. They ridicule or try to confuse people who ask challenging
questions." (p.66)
In your experience, what exaples can you come up with that illustrate the above quote?
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2010 05:34AM by Vera City.
I thought you might like the following quotes from the book
The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad
"When abuses are publicly exposed, the leader either denies
or justifies the behaviors by saying that ‘enemies of the
truth’ or ‘the forces of evil’ are trying to subvert his true message.
Core members of the group have a huge
vested interest in believing him, as their identity is wrapped
up in believing in his righteousness. Those who begin to doubt
him at first become confused and depressed, and later feel betrayed
and angry.
The ways people deny and justify are similar: Since
supposedly no one who is not enlightened can truly understand
the motives of one who is, any criticism can be discounted as
a limited perspective. Also, any behavior on the part of the guru,
no matter how base, can be imputed to be some secret teaching
or message that needs deciphering."
[[b]WARNING! CULT THOUGHT STOPPING PHRASES FOLLOW![/b]
In the case of the Butler cult, people deny and justify by saying that the guru does these things out of self-sacrifice, who leaves the blissful spiritual sky to save the demons wallowing in maya out of his great mercy. The following APOLOGIES, buzz phrases, typical of Butler followers, illustrate the above statements:
"It really pains Jagad Guru to live the way he does, but he is not attached to this world and uses everything to serve G0d."
"He suffers and gets ill due to taking on all the sins of his disciples."
"Thank you for the[Butler] quotes ... I don't know whether Butler's ego is doing a lot of that talking or whether in his mind it hurts him to do it but he does it as but one of the many great sacrifices he has to make."
“...harsh words and stances is that it is essentially a form of "attack therapy" / "surgery" / "depolarization" that is meant to reduce your attachment to False Ego.”
"We are grasping with every bit of strength to hold onto our material addictions. They can help you. They will cut/rip off the tumors in your Heart... However, it is not pleasant. And, very few are willing to undergo the procedure... "
"And, because God is infinitely merciful... you must be willing. If not, no worries. Go, Maya-devi is waiting for You, Dear Ones"
“So... hypothetically speaking, when Angels mercifully choose to go to Hell to offer the very few Demons who are willing to listen and ready for a serious change salvation... well... I guess the Demons are going to find the Angels not very tolerant of their activities... the Angels already know that only those Demons who can withstand the harsh truth are going to have a chance at getting out. The others need more time to stew in their "independence" away from their Creator.”]
More from The Guru Papers:
"The power of conversion experiences lies in the psychological
shift from confusion to certainty." (p.65)
"People whose power is based on the surrender of others
develop a repertoire of techniques for deflecting and undermining
anything that questions or challenges their status, behavior,
or beliefs. They ridicule or try to confuse people who ask challenging
questions." (p.66)
In your experience, what exaples can you come up with that illustrate the above quote?
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2010 05:34AM by Vera City.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
dharmabum
()
Date: July 25, 2010 06:49AM
Thanks Terre for the very kind words. I didn't realize Indie PMed me too. Grrrrr! It seems like he wanted to be deprogrammed by this forum. I guess that's another reason why people are attracted to cults — they love the attention given to them when they are being recruited. He obviously wanted to be recruited, even by the people here; unfortunately, this forum is not another cult to give people the same attention they can get from cults. That's pure naivete and superficiality. People here don't even agree with one another, let alone give that false modesty to anybody who just popped out of nowhere and be so insensitive to hurt feelings most people here have been trying to endure. In every cult, as soon as you've shown interest in joining, they will pamper your ego until it bursts. You'll be walked through the external beauty of the culture and theology, only to find out the ugliness later, and is too late.
But two years is way too long for ego-pampering for this potential recruit. I'm surprise they have not shown him their true colors? I guess the contact is limited to these two mentors, so he was not really exposed to the normal situation yet, as when you get to know the community that long. Well, I agree, that guy may be a lost cause, and no amount of evidence is enough to convince him otherwise. Listen Indigo, I have nothing to sell you or shove into your throat; I can be mean to anybody who I feel deserves it; I don't need people like you in my life. He sounded so impressed and even hypnotized; more than willing to be the whipping boy, the insiders nowadays avoid like rats in sewers are to light. Cults like to play with one's emotion; once in, they will snap your head up like in a mouse trap. Addiction is an understatement.
For the record, I'm holding Chris Butler responsible for damaging the lives of people so dear to me and I will personally bring that to my grave. If he claimed to bear the karma of his followers, forget that; he will have to bear the anger and bitterness of loving parents like me, who beg to differ. Even lions and hyenas love their young.
But at least it was a nice chapter for this forum, to get to know that there are still people like Indigo that are attracted to the superficiality of religious cults. All the while I thought the second and third generation of followers are enough to carry on and sustain the longevity of the franchise. I was wrong. There are still morons out there that can be lured. P.T. Barnum is still relevant. Like I said, they are like moths that are tantalized by the flickers of a kerosene lamp; little did they know, all they had to do is just wait for the break of dawn and find out that the light they are attracted to is only bright in the night. Thanks again, Terrenaut.
But two years is way too long for ego-pampering for this potential recruit. I'm surprise they have not shown him their true colors? I guess the contact is limited to these two mentors, so he was not really exposed to the normal situation yet, as when you get to know the community that long. Well, I agree, that guy may be a lost cause, and no amount of evidence is enough to convince him otherwise. Listen Indigo, I have nothing to sell you or shove into your throat; I can be mean to anybody who I feel deserves it; I don't need people like you in my life. He sounded so impressed and even hypnotized; more than willing to be the whipping boy, the insiders nowadays avoid like rats in sewers are to light. Cults like to play with one's emotion; once in, they will snap your head up like in a mouse trap. Addiction is an understatement.
For the record, I'm holding Chris Butler responsible for damaging the lives of people so dear to me and I will personally bring that to my grave. If he claimed to bear the karma of his followers, forget that; he will have to bear the anger and bitterness of loving parents like me, who beg to differ. Even lions and hyenas love their young.
But at least it was a nice chapter for this forum, to get to know that there are still people like Indigo that are attracted to the superficiality of religious cults. All the while I thought the second and third generation of followers are enough to carry on and sustain the longevity of the franchise. I was wrong. There are still morons out there that can be lured. P.T. Barnum is still relevant. Like I said, they are like moths that are tantalized by the flickers of a kerosene lamp; little did they know, all they had to do is just wait for the break of dawn and find out that the light they are attracted to is only bright in the night. Thanks again, Terrenaut.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
indigoarthur
()
Date: July 26, 2010 06:23AM
Thanks Vera City, Terrenaut, Dharmabum, Just-Googling, Malcom, RRModerator, etc. for your time and words. I came here looking to exchange ideas and possibly receive wisdom and this has occurred, and you all contributed to it. For this I am grateful.
Having read your new postings and reconsidered previous words I do agree I came to this forum in an inappropriate manner. I was obviously insufficiently considerate of your experiences, and being the guest should have known better. This is what I have to deal with. With an ego like mine, it just might be bad enough to call for strong medicine like these Vaishnavas. This is actually part of my truth. I came to see some of the wisdom that these "far right-wing" spiritualists espouse before I met these folks. They haven't so much brainwashed me as I happen to agree they have some good points. As I have agreed from the beginning, they are extremists. I have spent most of my life on the far left. The far right seems like a good place to learn to be.
And, you ain't serving no weak sauce at this barbque neither! <3
Peace.
Having read your new postings and reconsidered previous words I do agree I came to this forum in an inappropriate manner. I was obviously insufficiently considerate of your experiences, and being the guest should have known better. This is what I have to deal with. With an ego like mine, it just might be bad enough to call for strong medicine like these Vaishnavas. This is actually part of my truth. I came to see some of the wisdom that these "far right-wing" spiritualists espouse before I met these folks. They haven't so much brainwashed me as I happen to agree they have some good points. As I have agreed from the beginning, they are extremists. I have spent most of my life on the far left. The far right seems like a good place to learn to be.
And, you ain't serving no weak sauce at this barbque neither! <3
Peace.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
terrenaut
()
Date: July 26, 2010 11:57PM
Quote
indigoarthur
Thanks Vera City, Terrenaut, Dharmabum, Just-Googling, Malcom, RRModerator, etc. for your time and words. I came here looking to exchange ideas and possibly receive wisdom and this has occurred, and you all contributed to it. For this I am grateful.
...... With an ego like mine, it just might be bad enough to call for strong medicine like these Vaishnavas. This is actually part of my truth. I came to see some of the wisdom that these "far right-wing" spiritualists espouse before I met these folks. They haven't so much brainwashed me as I happen to agree they have some good points. As I have agreed from the beginning, they are extremists. I have spent most of my life on the far left. The far right seems like a good place to learn to be.
And, you ain't serving no weak sauce at this barbque neither! <3
Peace.
Well, if it is right-wing you wish to experience, then look no further than the cult-of-butler.
He is the ultimate capitalist - money money money, no conscience allowed, and of course that includes the right to exploit anyone in the pursuit of his dreams of wealth and privilege.
He emulates white-supremacy perfectly, and will teach you all about hating anyone different from you.
He is a perfect knock-off of Christian fundamentalism, dividing the world into "us...angels" and "them...demons". Of course, having God in your back pocket means you can do anything you damn well please to the "demons".
Or maybe you can learn the political "Tea Party" brand of right wing-ism, wrapping intolerance, stupidity and blind patriotism to a dubious cause in a cloak of domestic correctness.
Some people need to stick their nose in crap to know it stinks. Others are content to experience crap from a safe distance. Whatever works, I guess.
You are entitled to your own choice. You are also responsible for your actions. Once you get sucked into this cult you will keep spreading its toxic lifestyle and that is wrong. I do not wish you well, I hope it all goes very badly for you, and that the medicine these Vaishnavas are handing out, sticks in your throat and shuts you down. Too many people have been hurt, and continue to be hurt by these people. It has to stop.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
indigoarthur
()
Date: July 27, 2010 03:12AM
Quote
terrenaut
Well, if it is right-wing you wish to experience, then look no further than the cult-of-butler.
He is the ultimate capitalist - money money money, no conscience allowed, and of course that includes the right to exploit anyone in the pursuit of his dreams of wealth and privilege.
He emulates white-supremacy perfectly, and will teach you all about hating anyone different from you.
He is a perfect knock-off of Christian fundamentalism, dividing the world into "us...angels" and "them...demons". Of course, having God in your back pocket means you can do anything you damn well please to the "demons".
Or maybe you can learn the political "Tea Party" brand of right wing-ism, wrapping intolerance, stupidity and blind patriotism to a dubious cause in a cloak of domestic correctness.
Some people need to stick their nose in crap to know it stinks. Others are content to experience crap from a safe distance. Whatever works, I guess.
You are entitled to your own choice. You are also responsible for your actions. Once you get sucked into this cult you will keep spreading its toxic lifestyle and that is wrong. I do not wish you well, I hope it all goes very badly for you, and that the medicine these Vaishnavas are handing out, sticks in your throat and shuts you down. Too many people have been hurt, and continue to be hurt by these people. It has to stop.
Holy smokes, Terrenaut, you are no less dualistically polarized than that which you deplore.
Much ruckus has been made about my jovial affirmation of the demons-angels metaphor. Considerable offense has been expressed at even an oblique implication of unbecoming behavior. I only wished to express that instead of pointing with trembling fingers at everything that offends one's relative sensibilities as definitive proof of toxicity, one considered that there might actually be something positive ocurring within the cult as well.
For a conman to lead a religious organization / cult of thousands of relatively-intelligent, hard-working folk who are not suiciding, raping, or intoxicating each other is a considerable accomplishment.
For the record, Chris Butler and the Vaishnavas associated with him do teach traditional Vaishnava spiritual knowledge and practices in addition to the criticisms which are the subject of this forum. Some benefit from the traditional aspects of their work. This is what I resonate with. I do not disagree with you. I only cannot agree when you say there is nothing positive at all. That is not even logical in the face of what is.
Does anyone know of a more traditional Vaishnava community in the West?
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
terrenaut
()
Date: July 27, 2010 03:58AM
ad-hominem attacks notwithstanding, your reply lacks the backing of sound research. You, who cannot even bring him/herself to read this entire thread, purport to know the depth of the teaching of CB and co.
there are only positives happening in the cult on a beginner level. Sure, it feels good, and might get someone to live a little more cleanly, think a bit more spiritually, whatever, but go any deeper and all that pales in the mindfuck to follow.
oh, the cult is good for those initiated disciples who are running their centers, getting free labour from the students, or it is likewise good for all the offshoot businesses who also exploit that free labour. It is NOT medicine, it only hurts. Never heals.
You do NOT know that he teaches traditional vaishnava knowledge, because you do not know what that is. Do some research, please.
You are certainly skilled in his argument/debate style. Congratulations. You can back-pedal all you want on the "jovial affirmation of the demons-angels metaphor", but you see...that is the wedge. Us and them. It isn't jovial in the least. You can guffaw all you like when you say that, but that mind-set is what gives them permission to screw all the "demons" over. It is toxic to the max.
okay. I know you get it. I even know you are probably just doing this for sport now, get people riled up and toss in a few insults, etc. problem is, you are not very good at it. Been there, heard it all.
terrenaut (dualistically polarized and all...) wtf.
there are only positives happening in the cult on a beginner level. Sure, it feels good, and might get someone to live a little more cleanly, think a bit more spiritually, whatever, but go any deeper and all that pales in the mindfuck to follow.
oh, the cult is good for those initiated disciples who are running their centers, getting free labour from the students, or it is likewise good for all the offshoot businesses who also exploit that free labour. It is NOT medicine, it only hurts. Never heals.
You do NOT know that he teaches traditional vaishnava knowledge, because you do not know what that is. Do some research, please.
You are certainly skilled in his argument/debate style. Congratulations. You can back-pedal all you want on the "jovial affirmation of the demons-angels metaphor", but you see...that is the wedge. Us and them. It isn't jovial in the least. You can guffaw all you like when you say that, but that mind-set is what gives them permission to screw all the "demons" over. It is toxic to the max.
okay. I know you get it. I even know you are probably just doing this for sport now, get people riled up and toss in a few insults, etc. problem is, you are not very good at it. Been there, heard it all.
terrenaut (dualistically polarized and all...) wtf.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 27, 2010 04:21AM
indigoarthur:
Do you have something to offer here other than repeating the same cult apologies over and over again?
It seems that your only purpose here is to defend Butler and his group.
Do you have something to offer here other than repeating the same cult apologies over and over again?
It seems that your only purpose here is to defend Butler and his group.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: July 27, 2010 07:18AM
Quote
"People whose power is based on the surrender of others
develop a repertoire of techniques for deflecting and undermining
anything that questions or challenges their status, behavior,
or beliefs. They ridicule or try to confuse people who ask challenging
questions." (p.66)
Well alrighty then~ indigoarthur, thanks for the great stuff to illustrate this point!
Classic.
Tuco says, "There are two kinds of spurs, my friend. Those that escape a cult by the door, and those that escape by the window."
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: July 27, 2010 11:42AM
Quote
indigoarthur
For a conman to lead a religious organization / cult of thousands of relatively-intelligent, hard-working folk who are not suiciding, raping, or intoxicating each other is a considerable accomplishment.
I'm sorry, this comment made me laugh. It reminded me of Arlo Guthrie in the move "Alice's Restuarant" when he is trying to get out of the army. He was once arrested for "littering" so he's put on the 'Group W' bench. This is apparently where we on this forum belong according to the indigo blue man.
Quote
Arlo Guthrie: "Group W is where they putcha if you may not be moral enough to join the army after committin' your special crime. There was all kinds of mean, nasty ugly-lookin' people on the bench there. There was mother rapers... father stabbers... father rapers... Father rapers! Sittin' right there on the bench next to me!"
Yes, we are all walking around with veins in our teeth chanting "kill, kill, kill!"
But seriously, many con-men (religious and secular) have mis-led thousands of intelligent, hard working folks. As far as the statistics of depression, suicide, divorce, drug abuse, or rape in the Butler cult is probably more or equal to the rest of the population of infidels. It would be difficult to get statistics as the cult is so secretive and closed, so scandals are covered up. Anyone who deviates from making the guru looking good is driven out or considered crazy and defective (must not have followed, believed, practiced sincerely enough...). Complaints against the group have shown a higher rate of depression, suicide, and broken families than the general population. Not to mention the millions of dollars Butler has scammed out of people!
I know Dharma...don't feed the troll, but this was too funny to resist.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: July 27, 2010 11:58AM
Now for a humor break ---
For the youngster's who may have missed "Alices Restuarant Massacree" - sorta a true story.
[www.squidoo.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 12:02PM by Vera City.
For the youngster's who may have missed "Alices Restuarant Massacree" - sorta a true story.
[www.squidoo.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 12:02PM by Vera City.
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