rrmoderator:

Please excuse my preaching. I did not mean to violate the rules. I really hope this message is not construed as preaching... I only wish to express how I am perceiving all this very relevant subject matter.

To be honest, most of me STILL doesn't like Chris Butler. I keep asking my Vaishnava mentors, "are you SURE he's a good guy?" ;) So... I do truly empathize. As I see it, some very decent and very strong (entirely un-slavelike) people all believe he is a worthy Guru. People who I wager (forgive my judgment and through this I reveal my little merit), have far more spiritual strength, discipline, and are far more free than most of us here.

I have actually chanted very little in my two years... contrary to my previously espoused appreciation of this path, I have considered myself much more in tune with Shamanic and Buddhist practices for the last several years of my intense spiritual seeking.

2 weeks ago I attended a retreat by this Vaishnava organization. All the Guru stuff really sent me over the edge. Isn't this about God? I don't mind worshipping God, but why some human form that won't even speak diplomatically? I asked the senior Vaishnava there, "Why does God want me to go through a representative, and how do I know that Chris Butler is really God's representative?"

The answer: "You don't, but if it is meant to be, Krishna will reveal it to you in your Heart."

It was a 2 week retreat and I left after 5 days, thinking to myself "I'm glad I came, now I am sure this path is not for me. Back to Buddhist-Shamanism."

Upon returning home for very personal reasons I was inspired to chant (to my surprise as I had developed a great distaste for it in the past week). So I chanted japa... and things came together. I did not merely chant blindly... I chanted with one-pointed focus. My consciousness became only listening consciousness, and the mantra was all there was. And, then, I had a full-blown transcendental experience. No mind, no material plane. It was the equivalent of awakening from a dream, with this world being that dream.

Before this experience, I was going to leave this path and essentially see it exactly as most of you do. After this experience... well, it's different. And I feel very sad... because I know no amount of material evidence would have convinced me. And, I was so fortunate to have chanted with a truly sincere heart. Truly wishing to know: is this True?

And I fear that most of my brethren will not place their Heart in a position to have that question answered.

So, if you ask your Vaishnava mentors why Chris Butler curses and swears and calls people names, what do they say?

Do you understand the idea of "krishna will reveal it in your heart" ?? Is that enough of an answer for you? Does that answer make up for the Guru calling people assholes? In many of the threads on this topic you will find stories of abuse, insult, neglect and suicides. How will your 'heart' reconcile these things?

Is it possible that the spiritual practice can be to your liking without you actually worshipping Chris Butler? Are you convinced that he is "as good as God?"

there have been many instances of the kind of meditation you were engaged in, inducing what would feel like a 'transendental experience". Stick around this site for a while and read some of the other topics, this type of experience is not limited to Chris Butler and crew.

Quote: "As I see it, some very decent and very strong (entirely un-slavelike) people all believe he is a worthy Guru"

I consider myself to be decent and strong, and entirely un-slavelike. I too, chanted japa with focus, I too enjoyed kirtan, and devoted myself to the tapes, lectures, baghavad-gita classes. I had many deep friendships with people I respected, and I too preached to others, to enjoin them to try this path. I did this for far longer than you. I know now it is wrong.

You may eventually decide the same thing, or not. I encourage you to keep asking your vaishnava mentors the tough questions, and be critical of the answers, when you sense a snow-job, ask for clarification. check out the links that VeraCity provided a few posts back, and ask your heart (and your intelligence), how your own experience matches up.

It is good that you are questioning, and I am glad you are posting.

I should state that I am very loosely affiliated with these folks and my words are likely a poor representation of their views/position.

That being said, as I understand their and my own views on Chris Butler's (and my own male Vaishana mentor's; the female is a lot nicer...) harsh words and stances is that it is essentially a form of "attack therapy" / "surgery" / "depolarization" that is meant to reduce your attachment to False Ego.

Their general stance is that the average member of the human race is extremely spiritually/psychologically sick. To be honest, I think this is more or less the stance of every spirituality/religion (at least in part, of course, in part we are all perfectly exactly the way we are supposed to be, etc). And to be honest, I more or less agree when I look at the world human civilization has created, and certainly this is the case for my own self. We are mostly so much less than we could be. We are behaving very poorly on this planet.

If you look at almost any scripture, including the much more "neutral" types... they all tend to advise a great deal of conscious regulation of one's behavior... of dietary intakes, intoxicants, sexual activities, usage of thought, emotion, language, etc. Then looking at our societies... the average member is in major violation of these directives. By definition, we are a civilization of demons working hard to upkeep this hell of ours. Honestly... the world itself is beautiful, Nature is beautiful, Life is beautiful, what our minds create... hmm... some of it is kind of stinky ;)

So... hypothetically speaking, when Angels mercifully choose to go to Hell to offer the very few Demons who are willing to listen and ready for a serious change salvation... well... I guess the Demons are going to find the Angels not very tolerant of their activities... the Angels already know that only those Demons who can withstand the harsh truth are going to have a chance at getting out. The others need more time to stew in their "independence" away from their Creator.

All that fairly tale aside... is Chris Butler's Vaishnava organization truly an Angels-in-human-form-on-Earth seeking to reconnect you with God? I don't know... I am still very doubtful and suspicious of them.

But, the husband and wife Vaishnava team I study with... well, for two years I have watched them with all my not inconsiderable faculties... aside from their harsh words (which I am starting to suspect they truly themselves believe a lot less than we think they do and are more of a "spirituo-psychological" method of getting you to release your false attachments), these people's actions are nearly impeccable. They live minimally yet decently. They are extremely environmentally conscious with a fractional waste/carbon footprint. They are extremely disciplined and strong. They have extremely clear and focused eyes. They spend so little time on their own pleasure. They are almost constantly giving, either to God, their Guru, the general public (including me).

I have spent time with, studied with, had personal relationships with, etc, a number of mystics and spiritualists... in all reality, and it took me 2 years to grasp this... wow... these Vaishanvas have been more tolerant of me spiritually, though not verbally/emotionally, (the materially addicted demon that I am) than some of these we-are-one blissbabies out there.

All that being said... I am still not sure about them. Right path wrong people? Maybe... I am still not sure. They still really rub me the wrong way. But, the fact of the matter is... this is a world of illusion and ignorance and truly, we have been conditioned to be rather demonic. It only makes sense that the saintly would rub us the wrong way.

I have not yet read all 290 pages of bliss on this forum... but I am interested in hearing from folks such as Terrenaut and others. If folks have serious and legitimate criticisms of this group I would like to know what their are. Maybe they are wrong and my "partial" faith in them is wrong. Then again, maybe our doubt is wrong and they are spreading a true and good message?

indigoarthur:

You preaching and explaining your beliefs again, which is against the rules.

The issue is the behavior of Chris Butler and how he profits from his group.

You seem to be here to rationalize, spin and apologize for his behavior.

Save the preaching for the ashram.

Last warning.

rrmoderator, I do sincerely apologize... as I did agree to follow the rules. I realized only too late after posting that there was a good chance what I had written might be interpreted as preaching... yet, I do not actually believe I was really preaching in that last case (certainly my first post, yes). However, if you find I am yet again preaching... please feel free (not that you need my permission) to remove the offending paragraphs or discard this post entirely. I'm only saying I'd prefer to leave/stop posting quietly than bloom lots of negative energy and be banned or whatnot. If I need be banned, however, ban away.

It seems I cannot address the discussion without veering into "preaching."

Yes, I am partly here to "rationalize, spin and apologize for his behavior." But is that not merely another side in this discussion's viewpoint? If you do not permit the pro-Butler-Organization (and I repeatedly state I am not necessarily pro-Butler, I have only seen/heard him through tapes) people to state their opinions, or classify any attempt at pointing out the potential positive or the philosophical justification for the behavior that is this thread's subject matter as preaching... well, so pretty much only negative viewpoints are permitted here?

I was addressing Terrenaut's question: what is up with all the strange behavior of these harsh Vaishnavas.

At any rate... I have been personally ego-bashed by my Vaishnava mentor. He has broken me down pretty badly a few times. I have been fortunate to have insights and worked consciously and positively with some of these ego-reductions, the result being that I am stronger and clearer. Now I just work to brush them off and maintain my center. It's a lot like boot camp. I don't necessarily agree with it, but it works, and I can handle it. If we looked at elite military or even athletic training sessions, we might consider it abuse and torture. But when endured by willing and conscious participants, it creates strength and purity of purpose.

It most certainly is not for everybody.

Indigoarthur. What a great boy you are. You write with an assumption that others have accepted Krishna as a God. What if you hear somebody thinks that Krishna is a cartoon character? Would you wage war and justify hurting that person with the "offensive" mantra these people love uttering all the time? You should look back how these people stupidly protested just about anything they think to be offensive. Tusta had to rally the Hindu community to protest against this television show, Xena The Warrior Princess in the 80s, and Madonna's wearing of the Tilaka, and many more, as if they are Hindus themselves, when they always claimed they are not; but anytime it benefits them, suddenly they are. So hypocritical. Why don't they protest how Krishna is all over the pop culture of India, from matches to condoms to Boliwood, etc. Just because it's Hollywood, and high-profile, suddenly they become the rightful franchise of the Krishna mythology. If that's not fanaticism, tell me what is?

You are right about the world as addicted to sex and carnal sins. Just like your guru, I'm sure you are not. As long as you have never accepted the world as it is - both good and bad, you will always be susceptible to the false morality of religions and religious cults. You're like a moth in the night that are attracted to a flickering light. Whether you like it or not, the world will remain as it is. There will always be homosexuals, whores and evildoers, you people like to condemn and call names like KARMIS, MEATMOUTHS, OFFENSIVE, but nevertheless do what they do in the privacy of your room. Go tell that to your celibate guru and give us a break. The problem with your cultic mind is that you easily forget the goodness that thrive outside your religious biases. Anything outside your dogma is an abomination, and your dogma THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH. You are right about the unslave-like demeanor of the Haribols, that's why they remain seductive up to this day (but just to people like you) because they act as if they are the coolest people on Earth, and they bring with them their anti-culture, anti-establishment, pro-green and so unique lifestyle. Their retreats are so cool, you meet all these lovely dasis and dashing dases, yoga, qigong, vegetarian, vegan, cute Vedic names, japa beads, Hawaiian shirts, healthfoods. These are typical cults, just like any cults out there. Join the Kaballahs, they are cooler. They have everything you're looking for.

I've been with these people, and they are the shallowest and the most superficial people on Earth. What you don't realize is these are just a veneer, a facade to their fanatical mindset. They are ABSOLUTISTS. They thought they own the COPYRIGHT to the TRUTH, and are unapologetic about their one-track mind — bashing up people or institutions who disagree otherwise. Even before you open your mouth you are already perceived as wrong, because no one can argue or talk AGAINST The Truth, these Haribols wholeheartedly BELIEVE they are the sole bearers of. Is this the basis of your woohooh experience? If you felt that way, then good for you. Go play your game, just don't ever think that's the ONLY game to play, and you have the right to stop others from or look down on others playing other games, other than yours. Do not shove your woohooh to other people's throats and claim that that is your obligation or duty bestowed upon you by the REPRESENTATIVE of GOD, or the TEACHER of the UNIVERSE. If I were you. I'll just keep that petty morality to myself, you'll be doing this UGLY world a great favor. Most of all, if you have children, please, please, don't drag them to your woohooh experience. As far as 99.9 per cent of the people on Earth, Jagad Guru Chris Butler is nothing but a manipulative opportunist, a charlatan and a dork. Are you gonna challenge me for saying that? Go and present your truth to 100 people, if you could convince just one single thinking individual, I will bow down before you. You people are incredible, you make me sick.

By the way, by espousing the term DEMONS as you like referring to others other than them, I think you're already trapped. Run boy run, there is still time. You should never forget about how many innocent children and families were broken up in the name of ABSOLUTE TRUTH. You'll be bearing the same guilt as religions do in bringing many ills to this world. The likes of Jim Jones, David Koresh, Rev. Moon, Ron Hubbard, Marshall Applewhite, Shoko Asahara, guru booboo, jimmy the greek, etc, are enough warnings why you should stay away from religious cults. You may think Chris Butler is unlike these guys because they are not as cute or as cool as Butler is. I agree, with his toothpaste grin and hollywood look (he's got a nice voice too), who would think he is among these ugly charlatans. What about the original guru, A.C. Bhaktivedanta? Boy, that man is so ugly, him and Sai Baba are hall of famers in the ugliest gurus ever lived. Chris Butler was a dopehead and practically own nothing before he became a guru, and now he is a rich man. Don't be fooled about how generous they are and magnanimous to the planet. Wait till you fall in, you'll be doing your share. The hypocrisy in the group is immense. There are brutalities, gossips, affairs, anything you find in the outside world, they often criticize, are also or much more in there. Believe me, bro, been there, done that. You'll be in better shape joining the Greenpeace. At least they are authentic, and they bring documented results. These guys you don't know what happens behind closed doors, they are a cult, Why do you think they are so secretive, so afraid to come out in the open? Believe me, Chris Butler will not stand a chance get scrutinized by the thinking public. Thus he hides. Typical cult leader.

When you escape, bring your two mentors with you. They may have a good heart but they don't know what they are talking about. That "Krishna in your heart will reveal to you" is a trick. Another woohooh experience trick cults employ to entrap gullible people. Many of us heard that before, and it actually worked. Look at us now? Don't be so naive, that woohooh experience you had, is not exclusive to them. Go to India, this happens everyday. Read the life of St. Bernadette, or go to any mental institutions. One word — PSYCHOSIS. That's what it is all about. Read neuroscience, it's observable now, it's just the wiring in our brain.

Stay away from cults, they all are the same. Do you really want to know what the Truth is? The Truth is nothing that we humans should be obsessed about. We are like amoebas in the ocean. Even the gods are no bigger than us. If you understand how vast this universe is, what these gurus claim or what were written about the gods become laughable. The knowledge you get from Science is more awesome in magnitude than all the so called holy books combined. At least Science never claim to have the Truth, it's just pure eagerness to know more.

Just be as like anybody else and accept the world for what it is - both good and bad. As long as your good outweigh your bad, that's all you could do, man. Be compassionate to others and be comfy in whatever situation you are in. There will always be somebody greater and lesser than you. Stop being judgmental, or feel superior or purer. In the end, we really don't and can't know anything outside that that is under our noses. There are much to do in what we already know. The unknowables religious leaders have claimed over and over to have answers for, you can look back now and know not one of them got it right. If all these representatives claim to have come from the same source, why can't they agree with one another? It's just as simple as that. No mystery, no seven virgins, no reward for all the good things that you do for somebody up there, or for those who claim to be THE REPRESENTATIVE. When you do good, expect nothing in return. Always have a sense of humor and stop taking things so seriously (most of the time, that's when trouble comes in), you'll be fine as a human being. Stop bowing to all these dorks they all shit the same way you do. Nothing more. When they say they don't get a hard on looking at those lovely dasis, jiggling their boobs in pujas, believe me, they do. That Butler guy, I think he's a maniac, just like the rest. He claims to be a celibate, oh, give me a break. He's a liar. I will bet my neck, if he is willing to submit Wai Lana to a medical test. He's an idiot. Stop wasting your time and your life, expecting nirvanas from following these pretenders. Do you really want self-realization? I have a guru for you. Guru Google, he's got all the answers these gurus are no match to. These gurus are just after your money and the services you could give, with Guru Google, you pay nothing, ZERO, FREE. There is still time, bro, don't be stupid, escape.

indigoarthur

You admit, "Yes, I am partly here to "rationalize, spin and apologize for his behavior."

You then also admit, "I have been personally ego-bashed by my Vaishnava mentor. He has broken me down pretty badly a few times."

But then rationalize that "It's a lot like boot camp. I don't necessarily agree with it, but it works, and I can handle it. If we looked at elite military or even athletic training sessions, we might consider it abuse and torture. But when endured by willing and conscious participants, it creates strength and purity of purpose."

Uh huh.

The process you describe seems more like "brainwashing" than mentoring.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Note the distinctions between the Marines and cults by psychologist Margaret Singer.

[www.culteducation.com]

Not at all like "boot camp" or "elite military."

Basically, what your group seems to be doing is breaking you down to gain influence, induce submission and ultimately manipulate and use you like a "pawn."

[...]

By the way, I agree, there is brainwashing/indoctrination and they are Absolutists. From a spiritual-psychological perspective I would classify them as a type of intensive therapy specialists.

[...]


An important thing is: does Chris Butler live by the scripture he preaches? He lives in some luxury/seclusion and I find this somewhat troubling, but I actually don't see him myself. You know? Maybe he lives in a mansion because he kind of needs to, being as he is a highly polarized figure living in a rather chaotic western society. I would REALLY like to know what he is like personally, when few are watching. What he does when he wakes up, does he have a real relationship with Krishna. Because if he lives in a mansion and wears a $300 jacket (my friends who make $10/hr wear such clothes too)

[...]

Now, if they are actually starting large-scale anti-homosexuality campaigns or the like, that is silly in my view. Saintly people teach you do not cause positive change via negative opposition. But, I don't know about that campaign stuff. I know they say that to their students. My mentor said it the first or second time he spoke to me, denouncing the homosexuals in harsh language. I was surprised and apalled, but hey, at least he's honest about his views. The Vaishnavas don't do the sex stuff, except maybe for reproduction, and even then only with deep apologies to Krishna for having to witness such brutishness. Can't expect them to like our fancy spins on it ;)

Oh, yes, they have a one-track mind. One-pointed focus, laser consciousness. Just depends how you point it. Yes, of course, they are brainwashing. So do almost all organizations and institutions in our culture, one way or another. The real question is: what are they trying to fill you with?

I do wish to hear the best evidence that Butler is a fake. Any chance a brotha might git some pagenumbers or do I have to read all 290 pages of reciprocal hatred? ;)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2010 09:20AM by rrmoderator.

I'm not sure what point there may be in this...

But having been in Marine Corps bootcamp myself I know that Dr. Singer's conceptualization of Marine Corps procedures is highly idealized... consent, freedom of information? And have fun trying to leave the military before they choose to let you. The kids watching the commercials have an accurate picture of what they are getting themselves into? Once you sign that contract, the military literally owns you. Ouch...

I appreciate the military arts. I love the warrior spirit. But, the way governments treat their warrior classes is a shame. And based on my experience, the indoctrination of Marine recruits is *far more forceful and choiceless* than Butler's Boys. Sure, the Marines only control half of your life, the other half you can still choose as you wish. But that half they control by law... Butler controls only as far as you permit him to any given moment.

So much more should be said in regards to the inaccuracies of that Singer article but this is all the response I have the heart to make for it.