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Vera City
Keeping this forum alive, as it is the only critical review of Butler's group on line at this writing, is very important. The disparity between the Butler philosophy and the reality needs to be exposed in every available media. Hopefully, in time, more documents will appear and more "exers" will be willing to blow the whistle.

Some people say that we all create our own reality ... Seems like Chris Butler has created a reality where he is the only one messiah/savior of the world ... it's strange, isn't it, how other people can allow themselves to get sucked into that reality?

quote: " how other people can allow themselves to get sucked into that reality?" I have often asked myself the same question. How is it that seemingly normal people with normal or perhaps above normal intelligence
can actually believe the whole "Butler as Guru" package, and believe it for so many years, has always escaped me.
The message itself was never bad. The reality is, in this case, that we must all question the messenger.
I was around several of the devotees who were very near to and sometimes in the inner circles, especially the ones involved in direct personal service as well as direct contact on his many, never ending, always changing, bottomless pit of uncompleted projects. I found many of them to be kind and caring, it was a pity that their boss was not. Still they did as they were told, over and over. There were others, however, who left much to be desired. I remember seeing the mats on the floor with a bit of foam on top that was the bed for a few of the single men at the old warehouse. They were worked hard and I know they had to be physiclaly hurting when they had only
cardboard and foam for a bed. But the Guru, he had the finest of matresses and while many of his followers shivered in the cold months in Cottonwood and down in Twizel, he & his consort were getting to wear $300.00 Eddie Bauer jackets. In the meantime, what were the minions
rewarded with? Being called horrendous names, in the case of the women (which makes me wonder- he must really hate women to use one of the more caustic and vile of words in the English language, ergo I must submit to you all, he must be a mysoginist) or else they had to wear bags on their heads. So why do they believe?
This is a dysfunctional relationship, not unlike the master who kicks the dog over and over, yet still the dog will come back to get any scrap of food or care from the same hand that beats it. You have to ask what personality type accepts this situation?
In the same breath, ask yourselves what kind of loving entity would do that to another?
This is not teaching humility.
This is not teaching loving service or devotion.
This is not teaching by example.

I was reading through the 1959 UN Declaration on the Rights of the Child, (http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?lang=e&id=B0275B42F3B4C25380256900006933EF), I just wonder how come more often than not, the State is helpless in protecting children from obvious abuses of religious cults? Religious Freedom oftentimes trumps up Children's rights in courts. Adults have every right to choose beliefs they want to belong to no matter how stupid they are, but the children are often times involved in cults not by choice. The Science of Identity boarding school in La Union, Philippines, disguised as a legitimate private school, where children of Haribol parents from around the world are sent to for indoctrination, operate under the noses of the Philippine Government. It's time that this archaic and manipulative system of religious cults be looked into by grassroots organizations or human rights watch dogs. Chris Butler is running his business not with new converts but highly brainwashed second and third generation followers. His theology is outdated and is so phoney in the eyes of new generation of thinking people, instead he relies on the offsprings of brain-dead followers for longevity.

The rights contained in the CRC (Convention on the Rights of the Child) fall into four broad categories:
• subsistence rights, including the rights to food, shelter and health care;
• development rights, which allow children to reach their fullest potential, including education and freedom of thought, conscience and religion;
• protection rights, such as the right to life, and to protection from abuse, neglect or exploitation;
• participation rights, which allow children to take an active role in community and political life.

The CRC deals not just with child rights, but with the responsibility of the child to respect the rights of others in their family and community. It recognises that all children should be able to grow up in a happy and loving family environment, and stipulates that the family has a duty to help children understand both their rights and their responsibilities, in order to prepare them to live "in the spirit of peace, dignity, tolerance, freedom, equality and solidarity".

While the CRC emphasizes that the family is the natural environment for nurturing the child, it places the primary obligation on the state to protect children from all forms of abuse, neglect and exploitation, even where these are not carried out directly by state agents. In this way, the CRC challenges the traditional perception that states are not responsible for abuses committed within the family or the community. Domestic violence, bonded child labour or child prostitution, for instance, are usually perpetrated by private individuals, but governments can be held accountable for failing in their responsibility to protect children from such abuses.

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VoxVeritasVita Das
Googling makes a good point. I remember before Veejay passed away Siddha criticised him for watching the news stating that if one is not planning to do anything about what they see there is no reason for them to know about world events. Then at the same thing he states that even a babies coughing is irrelevant? How is a war suddenly to take precedence over God yet a babies coughing should not.

Probably because supporting the war can bring political power ... and having "disciples" in high political office means bigger pay-checks ... 50% of bigger pay-checks equals more money to pay for the excessively extravagant lifestyle!

Or did he say 75%?

Pathetic.

:0)

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dharmabum
I was reading through the 1959 UN Declaration on the Rights of the Child

The rights contained in the CRC (Convention on the Rights of the Child) fall into four broad categories:
• subsistence rights, including the rights to food, shelter and health care;
• development rights, which allow children to reach their fullest potential, including education and freedom of thought, conscience and religion;
• protection rights, such as the right to life, and to protection from abuse, neglect or exploitation;
• participation rights, which allow children to take an active role in community and political life.

Thanks for sharing this important declaration! Too bad it is not enforced.

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dharmabum
I just wonder how come more often than not, the State is helpless in protecting children from obvious abuses of religious cults? Religious Freedom oftentimes trumps up Children's rights in courts. Adults have every right to choose beliefs they want to belong to no matter how stupid they are, but the children are often times involved in cults not by choice.

Does anyone know international law regarding children attending schools in foreign countries? Are there statutes of limitations for abuses? Are there other Butler schools in eastern Europe or do they send those children to the Philippines as well?

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dharmabum
The Science of Identity boarding school in La Union, Philippines, disguised as a legitimate private school, where children of Haribol parents from around the world are sent to for indoctrination, operate under the noses of the Philippine Government. It's time that this archaic and manipulative system of religious cults be looked into by grassroots organizations or human rights watch dogs.

A very important point. Today I was watching a Vanguard show called American Jihadi. The pattern is very typical. A young, impressionable person goes to a foreign country to learn about a new culture and religion and ends up doing evil things in the name of his cult. It does not matter if they go to Afghanistan, India, Hawaii, or Idaho. It is romantic and exotic. One becomes separated from family and community foundations. Home looks dull and boring compared. They are mesmerized by the new language, ideas, melodies and chants. All very seductive. They easily flip, seeing the new lifestyle as more pure and meaningful; never critically reviewing the attraction to the unique sensual sights and sounds. Whether it is John Walker Lindh or Chris Butler followers; from Northern California to Afghanistan; from Hawaii to India; from Alabama to Somalia; it is the same journey.

What is different from how they were raised compared to how they will raise their own children is fear. 'Rama slave name' has spoken a lot of how he was raised in the cult on this forum and well worth reading. This makes 'dharmabum's' next quote all the more important.

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dharmabum
Chris Butler is running his business not with new converts but highly brainwashed second and third generation followers. His theology is outdated and is so phoney in the eyes of new generation of thinking people, instead he relies on the offsprings of brain-dead followers for longevity.

It seems there is a time line for cults and patterns for longevity. There must be research on the sustainability of cult leadership and what criteria needs to be in place. There must be a 'formula' or statistics for the amount of new cultists needed initially and a certain birthrate coupled with indoctrinating schooling. Some will argue that a few "mainstream" churches were once cults that assimilated into society eventually.

Wonder if this will happen after Butler's death. Butler appears to have realigned himself with (made alliances with) other former ISKCON guru types and redefined his self-appointed titles of 'Jagad Guru' and 'Prabhupad' to include others. He has obliquely and obtusely "humbled" himself to keep his "credibility" and perhaps his longevity. Or maybe he will be the last Pope of Gaudiya Vaishnavas.

Interesting documentary I referred to in previous post. American Jihadi

I don't think Chris Butler has got the guts to come out in the open and face up the scrutiny of the thinking public. He can afford to stay dissimulated. He's self-suficient as it is now. Knowing Chris, he doesn't need more, compared to other cult leaders. Remember, when he started this whole thing he had nothing but a hut, a gas lamp and a few books, and that was part of his charm then. He has enough hardcore followers from the 70s, their offsprings will sustain him and Wai Lana until they die. That's why they can afford not to preach openly now and do public activities like we used to. There's no way Chris' hybrid theology will survive the digital age. The new generation are not like us. Their knowledge base is broader and the availability of checks and balances are just clicks away. Looking back, we were so gullible and stupid. That can never happen now, and he knows this. The real victims here are the children. The longevity of the group rely heavily on these innocent children, who have done nothing wrong in life except being born in cultic households. The boarding school is not exactly new but is the outcome of many failed experimentations in keeping the children from secular schools and dissenting relatives. As far as I know, Rama is an exception, the rest are pretty much sold to their parents' manipulated upbringing. The state has to bear a guilt in this happening, but the public should help create awareness of or expose insidious tactics religious cults employ among their followers, and force the issue to the state, if they care enough about the innocent. Just solely based on the proclamation of the rights of children. It is a valid social issue, it is too wrong for this to be still happening in this age and time. And why the third world Philippines? Go figure. That boarding school will hardly stand a chance to exist in a first world country, unless Chris got billions of money, and millions of followers like some semi or fully established religions. People can be truly incredible. Poor kids.

"The documentary also covers the topic of how cult leaders control their followers by controlling their sex lives. This is a big feature in Butler’s cult."

Recently a friend who is also mother to a junior disciple and grandmother to two young children relocated and purchased a home very close to her children to keep close watch especially on the young children. She has observed that at least 5 adults live in this rented old home on a former military base. She said that many of them sleep in one room.

It is easy for her to just stop by and she wants to know some of the danger signs to look for.

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anticult
"The documentary also covers the topic of how cult leaders control their followers by controlling their sex lives. This is a big feature in Butler’s cult."

Recently a friend who is also mother to a junior disciple and grandmother to two young children relocated and purchased a home very close to her children to keep close watch especially on the young children. She has observed that at least 5 adults live in this rented old home on a former military base. She said that many of them sleep in one room.

It is easy for her to just stop by and she wants to know some of the danger signs to look for.

This cult primarily preaches celibacy until married (and sex only for procreation). Butler himself claims he is celibate with his wife. But who knows? To quote Clinton, “That depends on what your definition of "is" is”.

Often same sex members will dorm together to save on rent. If the two young children are still around and have not been shipped off to the Philippines yet, she is lucky. If I were her, I would stay as close as possible and spend as much time with the kids. It may be the only link they will have to the real world. If I remember Rama's story correctly, and he will need to validate, but it seems he had a relationship with one of his grandparents who was not a cult member. That can make a big difference. Other exers have stated that strong family ties helped pull them out of the cult.

As far as other signs, revisiting the UN Children's Bill of Rights will be helpful as well as all the resources on this website.
Warning Signs

Also, learn the classic signs of child abuse. I am sure there are local agencies that can give guide lines.

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anticult
"The documentary also covers the topic of how cult leaders control their followers by controlling their sex lives. This is a big feature in Butler’s cult."

Recently a friend who is also mother to a junior disciple and grandmother to two young children relocated and purchased a home very close to her children to keep close watch especially on the young children. She has observed that at least 5 adults live in this rented old home on a former military base. She said that many of them sleep in one room.

It is easy for her to just stop by and she wants to know some of the danger signs to look for.

As VeraCity said, the sexual stuff is probably not an issue. Generalized abuse is certainly present and that depends on the ages of the children. Young children are pretty well taken care of physically, but they are expected to grow up quickly, and tend to be ignored or inappropriately disciplined by about age 4 or 5. There's a lot of emotional abuse in the discipline "God won't love you anymore", a lot of shame etc. Devotee parents are often working all hours on CB's crazy projects and don't have much time for the kids. The grandmother should check to make sure the kids' daily needs are being met. Often the love given an older child is very conditional on whether they are behaving within cult norms, so the grandmother should make sure she shows them lots of love. It may be all they get.

What is more insidious, IMHO, is the lack of socialization and schooling which leads these kids to accepting whatever their parents (CB) want them to know. I think the grandmother should be asking questions now of where her grandchildren will be going to school, and keep asking until she knows the exact plans...if it is homeschooling, is there a person qualified and will they have supervision and a curriculum to follow, and if it is residential school in the plans, I would counsel her to get children's protective services involved *before* the kids are shipped offshore.

You could also work on the grandmother so that she very clearly knows that this is not a religious thing at all, the cult has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.