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just-googling
thanks, Jay, for posting the links to Srimad-Bhagavatam Chapter 5, wherein I found this piece:

There is the person who, but having taken the money, the wife or another man's children away, is sure, by the most terrible men of death, to be bound with the ropes of time and by force to be thrown into the hell of Tâmisra ['the darkness'] where he has to starve, crave for water, is beaten up with sticks and is scolded at; the living entity by the severe punishments received there loses at times his consciousness having landed in that most dark condition. (9) Sure so too is there Andhatâmisra where he, who but cheats another man to enjoy his wife and children, by his life forcibly is thrown into; by suffering always the utmost misery has he, being lost in losing his sense and sight, become much like a tree cut down by the roots, the reason for which one speaks of Andhatâmisra [the 'blind of darkness'].

Seems a bit severe, doesn't it? After all, Mr. Butler himself could be accused of doing these exact same things! These descriptions of hell and how people are thrown there could be compared to how the Catholic religion states that someone who does not go to Mass on Sunday will end up in eternal hell, no? Way too severe, in my opinion ... but then again these people are convinced that my opinion does not count, and that the all-loving creator God made these rules and has to carry them out like some kind of robotic being... ???

Seems like some cult leaders use these threats of hell to get people under their hypotic control?

Maybe?

Anyone here ever read Dante's "Inferno" describing the circles of hell? Same stuff really -- with the protagonist going on to follow the right path in life, to live righteous, universal values. Same theme in Dicken's novel "A Christmas Carol" and even "Pinnochio". Human beings seem to love fairy stories and are motivated by morality tales. So cult leaders use the same fear tactics on followers as with children.

My friend, who was in the cult, shared with me that those images did have a visceral (subliminal) effect on him. They were disturbing, not because the depictions of lust and avarice elicited a fear of Yamadutas, but because these are the very images used to control cult members into thinking that if you leave the service of Butler that you will become like this! Children are raised to believe this. They also think that all the people on this forum speaking out against Butler will have this horrible fate. They are pumped up to fear "outsiders". Posting those images and quotes could also be easily construed as warnings from SIF to members and ex-members viewing this forum. Mind control triggers. As terrenaut pointed out, it is so much in Butler's history to operate and play games like this! SIF members will also answer you, "yes it is a cult". So posts should be very clear as to meaning and intent. Hopefully, this forum will not degenerate again into nasty, paranoid, and aggressive attacks on other anti-cult members whose opinions may differ!!!

You really do not have to dig deep to reveal the cult leader's motives or discover their perverted thinking. So thanks Jay for posting those quotes on rape from ACB and Butler together. Brilliant. It was common knowledge in Butler's cult that he felt that it was okay to "wail" on your wife if she was displeasing or not submissive, even though it was not commonly practiced as reported by the "old school" exers I know. But abuse like this in closed groups goes unreported out of fear. The point is that --- who in their right mind would agree to a religion like this without some twist, some mind f#ck?

BTW - Anyone notice that Wai's (aka V.D.) website is flooded with new products? It would be interesting to find out where they are manufactured and if she uses slave cult workers in China, Poland, and the Philippines!? Okay, we already know the answer to that!

My meaning and intent would be to give examples of the distorted world view instilled in devotees. These propaganda images are only examples among many of how Butler achieves this. There is a constant fixation on the degradation of society by Butler who compares peaceful loving devotees to men who "cannot go an hour without looking at their pornographic magazines". It leads into the extreme imagery that Butler also uses such as people in the form of pigs, the factory of canine sex-slaves for women, the waste bin of fetuses, the doomsday predictions, the half-male half-female homosexual agenda to take over the world, the slaughter factories, and on ad nauseum.

I haven't even got to ACB saying ten to twelve year old girls should be married off and you're all already making defenses for them.

Your comparisons to an old fictional manuscript and the catholic church are neither helpful nor relevant. Your minimizations of Butler and his cult makes it difficult to explain this cult to others. So tone it down and get with the program. Capiche?

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"It is not that the woman do not like rape... Outwardly they show some displeasure, but inwardly they do not." A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, Morning Walk May 11, 1975

"So if the wife is not submissive, then, of course, this always increases the chance that she is going to get physically banged." Chris Butler Siddhaswarupananda, Letter to Chaitanya Mission

Another Propaganda Painting:

Being dragged by the lust for sex and material wealth (sybolized by the goddess Maya) the demon also becomes ensnared by greed and anger down the path to hell.

The clean intelligent devotees go to Krishna.

These paintings are modelled from WWII propaganda posters used to recruit young men and demonize the enemy. SIF and ISKCON both specifically target teenagers and young adults with these images to be trained up as heavily programmed soldiers for their cults. This is not at all like fairy tales as has been suggested.



asitis.com/gallery/plate38.html

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Jay Cruise

I haven't even got to ACB saying ten to twelve year old girls should be married off and you're all already making defenses for them.

Your comparisons to an old fictional manuscript and the catholic church are neither helpful nor relevant. Your minimizations of Butler and his cult makes it difficult to explain this cult to others. So tone it down and get with the program. Capiche?

The only person here who doesn't "capiche" is you. No one here has ever defended girls getting married off at age 12! You also missed the point about morality tales. The comparisons in NO WAY minimized the cult of Butler, but rather compared his cult to backwards, medieval ideas --- the dark ages! If you knew the history, you would have seen that. Maybe too subtle... So before you start waving your "irrelevant!" flag again, make sure you understand the post.

Apparently you have no familiarity with Dante's Inferno (not the video game, kids) so did not see the similarities between that and the gauche propaganda paintings of ISKCON and SIF publications. The garish ISKCON images you posted are also like modern day Hieronymus Bosch paintings --- also made to scare the masses into submission. Hieronymus Bosch's Hell It is also a common cult tactic (the use of imagery) and making this comparison in no way minimizes Butler's cult! When employed by cult leaders who raise children outside of mainstream society --- it is a form of mind control. In fact, it makes the cult look even worse, absolutely medievel, and backwards!!!! At the time of Dante's Inferno and Hieronymus Bosch, the masses of people did not have an understanding of modern science, astronomy, psychology, anatomy, physiology. For example, they believed that illness was caused by sins and that the earth was flat. People either believed in the churches' teachings or risked things like "Autos de Fe" (being burnt at the stake for heresy) Spanish Inquisition This cult also has erroneous ideas about science which has been brought up on this forum before.

Check out the Circles of Hell

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Virgil guides Dante through the nine circles of Hell. The circles are concentric, representing a gradual increase in wickedness, and culminating at the center of the earth, where Satan is held in bondage. Each circle's sinners are punished in a fashion fitting their crimes: each sinner is afflicted for all of eternity by the chief sin he committed.

See Dore's depictions of Dante's Inferno, in which the sins of avarice, greed and lust are depicted in medieval terms. Compare with ISKCON/SIF's gawdy imitations:
Check out Canto's 13,14,19,21,24

Now here is the point - These type of fear tactics and use of imagery is medieval - a euphemism for ignorant, archaic, backwards, perverted, against truth and knowledge! The Catholic Church has made some changes in their doctrines over time (although many will argue a need for more improvements). The Butler cult, on the other hand, because it is a cult, can not change. Butler discourages any education outside of what skills are needed to run his little empire and fraud. Butler, with Messianic delusions, makes up his own philosophy as it serves his narcissistic needs. He knows that with a little education, with an understanding of history and science, that his followers will develop critical thinking skills and realize that their fearless leader has clay feet.

So Jason, before you start again with your habitual flaming of everyone as being less relevant and less useful than you, make sure you understand what they are saying and respect their points of views, even if they differ from yours! This forum is for people to discuss the Butler group and how and why it is a dangerous cult. Everyone is coming from different angles and experiences. The forum is not here for you to be the relevancy police.

You have a lot to offer this forum and have made some good points, but so have others. Please refrain from attacking people on this forum and play nice.

Just to clarify more --- I wrote:

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Anyone here ever read Dante's "Inferno" describing the circles of hell? Same stuff really -- with the protagonist going on to follow the right path in life, to live righteous, universal values. Same theme in Dicken's novel "A Christmas Carol" and even "Pinnochio". Human beings seem to love fairy stories and are motivated by morality tales. So cult leaders use the same fear tactics on followers as with children.

My friend, who was in the cult, shared with me that those images did have a visceral (subliminal) effect on him. They were disturbing, not because the depictions of lust and avarice elicited a fear of Yamadutas, but because these are the very images used to control cult members into thinking that if you leave the service of Butler that you will become like this! Children are raised to believe this. They also think that all the people on this forum speaking out against Butler will have this horrible fate. They are pumped up to fear "outsiders". Posting those images and quotes could also be easily construed as warnings from SIF to members and ex-members viewing this forum. Mind control triggers. As terrenaut pointed out, it is so much in Butler's history to operate and play games like this! SIF members will also answer you, "yes it is a cult". So posts should be very clear as to meaning and intent. Hopefully, this forum will not degenerate again into nasty, paranoid, and aggressive attacks on other anti-cult members whose opinions may differ!!!

An additional point missed was that these images are used as mind control tools as much as cult sayings and trigger phrases are used to shut down critical thinking! My friend was validating the power of imagery in cults upon its adherents. Was that not your same point? That the images are used as propaganda! You, yourself compared one image to a WWII propaganda poster that demonizes the enemy. Are you minimizing the cult with this comparison? No more than I did with Dante. Using the same/ similar fear tactics that worked in the dark ages, still works today if you keep followers in fear of education --- the very education that would develop critical thinking skills and get them to question the belief system set up to keep Butler in control and his slave ship rowing! If your purpose here is to disrupt the thread, then you will fail to see the validity of these points.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2009 02:53AM by Vera City.

Chris Butler responds to the parents who are distressed about their babies cough, "Why be so concerned about things that are not worthy to be concerned about?"

Who cares if the baby dies? Robots have no heart, nor do they seek one.

Butler's is refering to the statement made by Krishna, "You are mourning for what is not worthy of grief." The corresponding propaganda painting explains that wise devotees show no concern for the poor, disabled, sick or the dying. Death and misery are constant on the wheel of birth, disease, old age, and death and a person can die at any moment. Feelings of concern for other people causes attachment which leads one's focus away from Krishna.

The next painting desensitizes the devotee to death by suggesting it is no more tragic than a person changing clothes (top left). As Butler states "You don't mourn for you husband when he takes off his shirt." Death is irrelevant.



asitis.com/gallery/plate7.html



asitis.com/gallery/plate8.html

Vera: So you are saying that your comparison of these paintings to fairy tales told to children was an intelligent one. No minimization there.

SIF's response to criticisms against them as a 'cult' is to declare they commit no worse crimes than any other level of society. Children's story books, television, advertising, highschools, the christian church are all brainwashing people. Even Googling remarked that television is programming people in the same manner as Chris Butler. This is a completely different arena to how cults operate.

It's a very narrow view too. I posted these posters and we got stuck the fear of hell saying it's the same as world religions, same as the catholic church, same as dante's christian hell, now Bosch's, and the same as fairy tales (what?). There is much more to these images than the fear of one's fate.

If I wanted to hear comparisons to christianity and children's books i'll call the cults hotline. If I want to create a reasonable comparison and piss off SIF at the same time I'll compare this to WWII propaganda.

I'm in no way trying to "attack" anyone. I'm saying tone down the christianity angle because this is a deception used by SIF. It is in no way similar or relevant and as more details are added such as the marriage of 12 year old girls it will become even more irrelevant.

J.C.~ Obviously, you are here to quarrel. I am not. You still miss the point.

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Vera City
J.C.~ Obviously, you are here to quarrel. I am not. You still miss the point.

Touche. (This is a French fencing term, pronounced "touchay" meaning "Touched" i.e. stabbed by the sword, injured. But note also that the English word "touched" has a completely different meaning, meaning touched in a pleasant way!)

Thanks, Jay, for reminders of the cult's way of thinking regarding suffering and death...

I feel deeply wounded. In canada they say "Eh Buffoon! Ne me touche pas".

Speaking of which Bhaktivedanta taught his disciples not to sit with "mother, sister or daughter" because even a very advanced devotee may be disturbed by sexual desires towards their own family. Butler gives orders about his disciples being in the company of any females unless their husband is present. Women are said to be nine times more lusty than males so they are even less trusted.

We've seen his memo on female etiquette and how Butler doesn't like women touchaying him. At their gatherings only males are permitted to place garlands around Butler's neck before he gives a lecture on various sexual perversions and homosexuality.

Perhaps if SIF and ISKCON didn't have such strange ideas about sex and harp on about it so much their disciples wouldn't be having so much of it. By promoting sexuality in their followers, and at the same time forbidding sex, this proves the point that sexual desire is so difficult to control.

This painting shows how a young male becomes attached to the female form, becoming entangled in jealousy and anger. Being consumed in the "fires of lust" the person suffers delusions, bewilderment of memory and loss of intelligence.



asitis.com/gallery/plate11.html

"A sincere devotee of the Lord shuns all material sense enjoyment due to his higher taste for spiritual enjoyment in the association of the Lord. That is the secret of success. One who is not, therefore, in Krsna consciousness, however powerful he may be in controlling the senses by artificial repression, is sure ultimately to fail, for the slightest thought of sense pleasure will agitate him to gratify his desires. "

It is interesting to see the propaganda "art" of SIF. It is a textbook example of religious kitsch, pretty lame unless you happen to have at any point believed in the message they promote. Then, as Vera has pointed out, they can be disturbing and trigger anxiety.
I wouldn't throw them in the same bin with really great art of Bosh, Dante etc. Those works are still great because they are personal exploration of human subconscious and imagination; they are not meant to convert and enslave. When a poet, an artist gets inspired by a story and explores it creatively it is a proof of freedom, not enslavement. Bosh's paintings are very unorthodox, both the visions of hell and the "Garden of Earthly delights". There is a famous vision of souls going through a dark tunnel towards the light, which brings to mind the reports of near death experiences. They are honest and genuine, fascinating to study all those centuries on.
Kitsch, on the other hand, is all falsehood and manipulation. It takes complex and difficult issues and makes them look simple and nice. Just look at the sweet baby Krishna or Jesus. Not a problem falling in love with those cuties. But Jesus at least tells you also to honor your not-so-handsome neighbor, while Krishna it's just me, me, me. All other can go to hell or become pigs.
A friend pointed out once to me how contemptuous it is towards pigs.