well Jay, it would seem that you may be successful in getting people to read the Bhagavad gita or the Srimad Bhagavatam. All world religions, major and minor, have their texts, and anyone can pick out the good and the bad, to hold up to the world, to prove the point-of-the-moment. This itself, is not proof of the cult-ness of people ascribing to that particular faith.

"Cult" has a unique form and meaning. Do you feel that Chris Butler is perpetrating a cult apart from the particulars of the scriptures of that faith? If so, how?

Terrenaut:

Do you see Bhaktivedanta, the director and approver of these paintings, as a cult leader? These propaganda paintings are particular to two cults (Butler's and his guru's) and not a world religious system. I think these paintings are important evidence relevant to this thread.

I am aware that you have previously mentioned being involved with SIF on this thread, and regardless of whether you still are, you also have expressed some personal connection to vaishnavaism. If you have concerns that aspects of the vaishnava religion will be shown in a negative light I can't really help that. Cults taint religion. Not I.

Part of showing how messed up SIF is does involve their grandfather guru who brought these scriptures to the west and whom SIF see as a pure conduit for the "absolute truth".

For example, if I want to show that Bhaktivedanta's mindset was that of a complete pig:

"Yes, that is law always. Rape means without consent, sex. Otherwise there is no rape. There was a rape case in Calcutta, and the lawyer was very intelligent. He some way or other made the woman admit, "Yes, I felt happiness." So he was released. "Here is consent." And that's a fact. Because after all, sex, rape or no rape, they will feel some pleasure. So the lawyer by hook and crook made the woman agree, "Yes, I felt some pleasure." "Now, there is consent." So he was released. After all, it is an itching sensation. So either by force or by willingly, if there is itching, everyone feels relieved itching it. That's a psychology. It is not that the woman do not like rape. They like sometimes. They willingly. That is the psychology. Outwardly they show some displeasure, but inwardly they do not. This is the psychology."

Can you imagine if Tom Cruise had said that? I seriously doubt he'd get a call back from Oprah.

Then add the detail that his bride was 14 years old.

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Check Mate SIF:

"It is not that the woman do not like rape... Outwardly they show some displeasure, but inwardly they do not." A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, Morning Walk May 11, 1975

"So if the wife is not submissive, then, of course, this always increases the chance that she is going to get physically banged." Chris Butler Siddhaswarupananda, Letter to Chaitanya Mission

thanks, Jay, for posting the links to Srimad-Bhagavatam Chapter 5, wherein I found this piece:

There is the person who, but having taken the money, the wife or another man's children away, is sure, by the most terrible men of death, to be bound with the ropes of time and by force to be thrown into the hell of Tâmisra ['the darkness'] where he has to starve, crave for water, is beaten up with sticks and is scolded at; the living entity by the severe punishments received there loses at times his consciousness having landed in that most dark condition. (9) Sure so too is there Andhatâmisra where he, who but cheats another man to enjoy his wife and children, by his life forcibly is thrown into; by suffering always the utmost misery has he, being lost in losing his sense and sight, become much like a tree cut down by the roots, the reason for which one speaks of Andhatâmisra [the 'blind of darkness'].

Seems a bit severe, doesn't it? After all, Mr. Butler himself could be accused of doing these exact same things! These descriptions of hell and how people are thrown there could be compared to how the Catholic religion states that someone who does not go to Mass on Sunday will end up in eternal hell, no? Way too severe, in my opinion ... but then again these people are convinced that my opinion does not count, and that the all-loving creator God made these rules and has to carry them out like some kind of robotic being... ???

Seems like some cult leaders use these threats of hell to get people under their hypotic control?

Maybe?

Another propaganda painting from "Bhagavad gita: As It Is":

At the end of this life a devotee goes to the Kingdom of God
Those who give charity to brahmanas (priestly class) go to heaven.
Others in the demoniac mentality (as described on the last page) become animals like pigs and dogs.



asitis.com/gallery/plate37.html

Jay Cruise: Getting people to read scripture by any means possible is an old Science of Identity trick. At the time of your original postings your purpose in doing so seemed unclear. Fair enough, they are pigs.

Quote
Jay Cruise
Terrenaut:


I am aware that you have previously mentioned being involved with SIF on this thread, and regardless of whether you still are, you also have expressed some personal connection to vaishnavaism. If you have concerns that aspects of the vaishnava religion will be shown in a negative light I can't really help that. Cults taint religion. Not I

..an assumption based on what? I am sure the vaishnava religion will endure long after the charlatans have been run out of town, what Chris Butler et al are doing is NOT vaishnavaism.

Personally I am pleased that others are here to expose this cult.

cheers
terrenaut

Terrenaut:

So can I assume you've now quit the cult?

Do you happen to have recordings of Chris Bulter that you are willing to share with the forum to help others to expose this cult?

I also apologize because I have received the wrong impression from one of your earlier posts Terrenaut:

"It is no exaggeration to say that the Vaishnava system itself is under attack, due to the methods of JG."

"Either JG is wrong, in which case Vaishnavism is also wrong, or JG is right and Vaishnavism is a terrible thing. JG HAS to address this. It is a mess."

"So, in addition to the documented material abuses within the organization, you also have the much worse spiritual abuse..not only of the individuals giving their hearts and lives, but the abuse of Vaishnavism itself."

Jay: what is your point?

Terrenaut: You have stated on this forum that you are a member of SIF and that you have lectures.

Can you answer the question are you no longer involved with the cult?

And can you make your Chris Butler lectures available?

Don't answer if you don't want to.

Jay, regarding the last photo from Bhagavad-Gita, yes, I remember being influenced by this picture when I was a cult member... spending those many lost hours in studying that long book... Okay, I could see the logic of the very fat man who eats like a pig, but the man who is hugging the woman turning into a dog??? No wonder the divorce rate is more than 90 percent in that cult, eh? (I also remember one beautiful painting of a man chatting up a woman on the beach and then the kind of hellish condition he would have to endure for enjoying this...!)

Not only were we influenced by the pictures in those books, we also got enamoured with the doublespeak language and philosophy of the book, such as... "God really loves being the Supreme Enjoyer" and "God made us in his image and likeness." Yeh, that makes sense!

Regarding my time spent in the cult, it is almost as if I was spending my whole life as an "extra" in Chris Butler's very long and never-ending movie... (Eventually, it seems like I got bored with that and started my own movie ;-)

:0)