self-flagellation
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: July 10, 2008 11:32PM
I’m almost finished with the article! It's loaded with great info.
See [www.culteducation.com]
This is no light-weight psychological punishment. Believers actually felt their very souls were in jeopardy of eternally being cut off from God (or to be reborn as a worm and wait thousands of reincarnations until they took human form again to meet up and repent to guru). That was the teaching. Having been taught that God was all merciful, it does not make sense that his representative on earth was so merciless with some people.
Followers in Chris Butler’s group were told to fast if they had been “offensive”; for some, absurd amounts of time. One woman went on a self- imposed, 3-day fast because she accidentally broke some minor rule. She did it privately without anyone knowing. CB had publicly made the statement that a person should fast for 3 days for this offense. A decade later, this woman does not remember what the ill deed was except that it “was something really stupid and ridiculous” … Mainstream religions also employ fasting, but never in the absurd way that Jagad Guru Chris Butler did.
Just Googling, didn’t you hear him say people should go on a 6 month fast? What was the reason?
Followers were always told that when you get punished or “chastised” by guru it is for you own benefit. It was the greatest mercy and love from g0d. You were told that if you were chastised that meant you were loved and favored, but in reality it was just another way to keep you subservient and to suck the most energy out of you. The rest of the group would treat you like shit until you returned to a favorable status again or left the group.
Followers were also fined money for offenses or not pleasing the guru. I guess the self infliction part would be giving more money than usual to guru.
Just Googling can you tell us what kind of “offences” warranted these fines?
It also might be argued that self-inflicted celibacy within marriage was a sort of punishment for many! Attitudes about sex and women in CB’s cult are not far off from ACB’s! see ACB On women
Many marriages broke up trying to be celibate and for lack of affection. Couples who were not independently wealthy or on welfare (which was really poverty line subsistence) feared to have children because they could not afford them nor had time for them while they labored for free for guru. Katyayani was an exception due to her "most favored status" (labeled a pure devotee), so she received a stipend, house cleaners, baby sitters, cook, and a nice home until she remarried. She could afford to be nice to everyone since she received help as well as adulation from the cult.
I'll post more of the ranting letters and liner notes from the "Gentle Force" album, including a CB interview later.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2008 11:43PM by Vera City.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Regarding disobedience, punishment did not entail self-flagellation or physical violence in the 1980’s. (Beyond that time, others will need to report their experiences). A lot of the pain was psychological. Rejection from guru, of being “fired”, publicly humiliated from the mouth of the person who you were programmed to believe was g0d’s representative was extremely painful. Sitting there and taking it without question, and believing it to be for your benefit was devastating.Quote
”Thought-reform subjects have been punished for disobedience by being ordered to self-inflict severe pain, justified by the claim that the result will be therapeutic…”
This is no light-weight psychological punishment. Believers actually felt their very souls were in jeopardy of eternally being cut off from God (or to be reborn as a worm and wait thousands of reincarnations until they took human form again to meet up and repent to guru). That was the teaching. Having been taught that God was all merciful, it does not make sense that his representative on earth was so merciless with some people.
Followers in Chris Butler’s group were told to fast if they had been “offensive”; for some, absurd amounts of time. One woman went on a self- imposed, 3-day fast because she accidentally broke some minor rule. She did it privately without anyone knowing. CB had publicly made the statement that a person should fast for 3 days for this offense. A decade later, this woman does not remember what the ill deed was except that it “was something really stupid and ridiculous” … Mainstream religions also employ fasting, but never in the absurd way that Jagad Guru Chris Butler did.
Just Googling, didn’t you hear him say people should go on a 6 month fast? What was the reason?
Followers were always told that when you get punished or “chastised” by guru it is for you own benefit. It was the greatest mercy and love from g0d. You were told that if you were chastised that meant you were loved and favored, but in reality it was just another way to keep you subservient and to suck the most energy out of you. The rest of the group would treat you like shit until you returned to a favorable status again or left the group.
Followers were also fined money for offenses or not pleasing the guru. I guess the self infliction part would be giving more money than usual to guru.
Just Googling can you tell us what kind of “offences” warranted these fines?
It also might be argued that self-inflicted celibacy within marriage was a sort of punishment for many! Attitudes about sex and women in CB’s cult are not far off from ACB’s! see ACB On women
Many marriages broke up trying to be celibate and for lack of affection. Couples who were not independently wealthy or on welfare (which was really poverty line subsistence) feared to have children because they could not afford them nor had time for them while they labored for free for guru. Katyayani was an exception due to her "most favored status" (labeled a pure devotee), so she received a stipend, house cleaners, baby sitters, cook, and a nice home until she remarried. She could afford to be nice to everyone since she received help as well as adulation from the cult.
I'll post more of the ranting letters and liner notes from the "Gentle Force" album, including a CB interview later.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2008 11:43PM by Vera City.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
just-googling
()
Date: July 11, 2008 12:21AM
Quote
VC
Just Googling, didn’t you hear him say people should go on a 6 month fast? What was the reason?
Yes. We were told to go on a six month fast. The reason was that the servants were late in delivering the master's breakfast. (I cannot remember exactly, but I think it was 5 minutes late or maybe 15 minutes late???) However, the next day people were told that they did not have to go on the fast... that the fearless leader did not want people dying from starvation (would have diminished his coffers, eh?)
Quote
VC
Just Googling can you tell us what kind of “offences” warranted these fines?
Yes. When I was a member of the cult, the fines were just starting to be administered, mostly for very small infractions, like not cleaning up your mess in the communal kitchen, etc etc. The fines at this time were relatively small (10 or 20 dollars if I remember correctly?)... From what I can gather, the more serious and ridiculous fines started to happen during the 1990s after I had left the cult. Unfortunately it is quite difficult and time-consuming to sort through the pages of this thread, but I do remember some reports from Australia (Cultreporter?) that people were being fined for totally ridiculous things... like the young 20-year-old boy with too much testoserone and who liked to flirt with young girls. I think the amounts of the fines were getting very large by this time (into the thousands of dollars?)
Quote
VC
Rejection from guru, of being “fired”, publicly humiliated from the mouth of the person who you were programmed to believe was g0d’s representative was extremely painful.
You have made a very important statement here, especially with the phrase PROGRAMMED TO BELIEVE WAS GOD'S REPRESENTATIVE. It is a fact that all human beings are very easily programmed, whether from the televison programs, internet sites, or listening to Jagged guru lectures... (Of course, we can choose what we listen to, though!).
:)
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 12, 2008 03:35AM
Just-googling:
You said, "It is a fact that all human beings are very easily programmed, whether from the television programs, internet sites, or listening to Jagged guru lectures... (Of course, we can choose what we listen to, though!)."
No, not really.
There are distinct differences between television programs, Internet sites and thought reform through "guru lectures."
Take the time to study this in-depth before making such remarks.
See [www.culteducation.com]
The gradations of persuasion and their differences are illustrated on a chart seen through the above link.
Education, advertising, propaganda, indoctrination and though reform have distinct differences, which is noted.
Ignoring such facts serves no useful purpose and denigrates the damage done through thought reform to cult victims.
"Of course, we can choose"?
No, this remark directly contradicts the research done in this area.
Also read [www.culteducation.com]
I don't understand why this issue has to revisited again and again ont this thread.
You said, "It is a fact that all human beings are very easily programmed, whether from the television programs, internet sites, or listening to Jagged guru lectures... (Of course, we can choose what we listen to, though!)."
No, not really.
There are distinct differences between television programs, Internet sites and thought reform through "guru lectures."
Take the time to study this in-depth before making such remarks.
See [www.culteducation.com]
The gradations of persuasion and their differences are illustrated on a chart seen through the above link.
Education, advertising, propaganda, indoctrination and though reform have distinct differences, which is noted.
Ignoring such facts serves no useful purpose and denigrates the damage done through thought reform to cult victims.
"Of course, we can choose"?
No, this remark directly contradicts the research done in this area.
Also read [www.culteducation.com]
I don't understand why this issue has to revisited again and again ont this thread.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: July 19, 2008 04:53AM
This post was mistakenly put on it's own thread.
Sorry....
Just Googling,
I understand where you are coming from and trying to say. From a general, overall perspective you could say that the media and cults are no different in that they try to persuade us to their point of view. But upon closer examination, you will see an enormous difference between the two, which is so elegantly shown on the Singer chart. See [www.culteducation.com]
It's really worth the time to study and compare the chart with your experiences in a cult and with some of your other interests.
While we can be influenced by the media, our thoughts are not actually RE-FORMATTED by it. You still have the ability to change your opinion when new information comes along.
There is a clearly defined spectrum on the chart. Each type of persuasion from Education--> Advertising--> Propaganda --> Indoctrination, all the way to --> Thought Reform employs zero to increasingly devious, exploitive processes. The intention of each category from education to thought reform is also profoundly different. Education is for our benefit. The users of thought reform have no interest in our benefit. The difference also is that we increasingly lose our ability to choose as we succumb to each category after education.
Have you ever been to a live hypnosis show or gone to a hypnotist to stop a bad habit? It is always surprising to see who goes under easily and who obviously is resistant. My father, a brilliant and inventive man used to say it was all nonsense, yet he would be the first guy to go under at entertainment hypnosis shows, according to my mom. I had dinner with some friends recently where hypnosis was the topic of conversation. One suggested that a person with greater intelligence is more susceptible to hypnosis because they make more connections in their thinking and have greater access to information in their brains, (but he couldn’t cite any research to prove this. ) Another suggested that it has nothing to do with intelligence, rather it is the more creative people with high imaginative capabilities who are most susceptible to hypnosis because they have greater access to the subconscious mind (one could argue that creativity and imagination is a form of higher level thinking/ intelligence). He also suggested that the ability to be hypnotized is an innate talent like the ability to draw and that it is also a skill that can be developed.
Googling, think about how you got involved in CB’s cult. Just like with hypnosis, you are put into a relaxed state of mind and had positive, high expectations about what would happen in your life as a result of the experience. You are inducted into a relaxed state of mind to receive new messages beyond your conscious mind. This was reinforced by a convincing and supportive peer group that seemed to be really nice (cool, reliable, educated, credible…) people. What you didn’t realize is that those new friends had already been deeply reformed. You didn’t “feel” manipulated or hypnotized, but there you and others were for years.
CB has followers chant mantras, make kirtans (group chanting with musical instruments), eat nice vegetarian food, listen to lectures. These are all very pleasant and relaxing experiences. Followers live a very healthy and clean lifestyle and manage ordinary businesses. What could be wrong with that? But while practicing the meditations and associating with people whose lives are completely invested in the cult, in this state, research has proven that you are very susceptible to hypnotic suggestions. Hypnosis can give you helpful suggestions to stop smoking or eat properly; or for entertainment purposes, make you act silly, but a cult uses the same techniques to make nefarious suggestions, like believing that an ordinary man is God’s representative on earth and you should give your life and money away to him. Where was your choice then? You really had none. You were set up (and luckily one of the few to escape.) You did not know then what you know now, so there was no choice. A reserved person does not go to a hypnotist's show to act like a chicken and get laughed at by the audience, but marvels later at how quickly and easily he was made to act that way.
A person who has been hypnotized will tell you they did not feel a thing. My father would argue pridefully with my mom that he never really went under. And with more meditation and practice, a follower becomes more adept at deepening the inductive process and reinforcing the cult dogma. I think that the people in Chris Butler’s cult honestly do not think they have been programmed. When you watch an ad or news on television, you can argue back, hold a different opinion, chose not to buy a product, turn it off, write a letter to the editor, email a congressman. You can’t do that in a cult.
Look at the difference between education on one end of the spectrum and thought reform. (Education defined as pure education, not tainted by politics or religion.)
See [www.culteducation.com]
- Education is based on “many bodies of knowledge, based on scientific findings in various fields.”
- With thought reform, the “Body of knowledge centers on changing people without their knowledge.”
Weren’t you taught that just by hearing the holy names of God and the pure devotee’s words that people would transform? That it would soften hearts, etc. You believed that by giving people prasadam (food offered to g0d and guru) and chanting out loud that this would also change the world. Why else put on Sunday feasts or put up with the crap you did?
Science was mocked as materialistic. Investigating things outside of the cult was discouraged. The base of knowledge was narrowed and focused solely on converting the world, right? Didn’t the group stop chanting the maha mantra (hare krishna) publicly and replace it with “Madonna Mohana Murari” to deceive the public? Didn’t devotees pass out free prasadam (food offered to Hindu g0ds) samples at Down to Earth or in beach parks?
- With education, a “two way pupil-teacher exchange encouraged.”
- With thought reform: “exchange occurs, communication is one-
sided.”
Every single interview (with the possible exception of the interview on CB’s Gentle Force Album), was FAKE and SCRIPTED by Jagad Guru Chris Butler himself. No one EVER dared to question him publicly. The pressure was/ is too great to ask him anything when you have doubts. Do you know of ANYONE who challenged him about anything while in the group? What happened if they did?
- In education, “Change occurs as science advances; as students & other scholars offer criticism; as students & citizens evaluate programs.”
- With thought reform, “Change occurs rarely; organization remains fairly rigid; change occurs primarily to improve thought reform effectiveness.”
Apparently, the changes that have occurred with Butler’s group since you were there is that they are employing more meditation, relaxation and hatha yoga exercise; going back to the hypno-suggestive techniques in “Psychic sleep” from Chris Butler’s Sai days. Without the direct experience of the very charismatic Chris Butler, in order to keep his cult going, he has taught his followers how to implant suggestions more effectively.
- Education is not deceptive.
- Thought reform is deceptive.
The group has been deceptive for a very long time. They have just become more adept at it. It became the whole societal infrastructure to be secretive. I think children growing up in this cult must not know anything about living in an open way, with honesty and having transparent dealings with the outside world.
At least in Hawaii, where the cult started, it used to be a very open subculture until Chris Butler decided to meddle in politics. Gradually, Jagad Guru’s paranoia appeared and he became more and more unavailable and secretive. Followers were told never to reveal Siddha’s whereabouts or talk about his projects. They were told not to chant the maha mantra publicly and to dress like ordinary people. People no longer carried their beads around and used crowd-counter clickers to chant the mantra all day (or was it just a way to keep the thought reform running?) The Science of Identity Foundation was created to run operations and apparently put up smoke screens. Communications were limited to top followers and initiated members. Businesses and politicians deny connections with the cult.
It is common and public knowledge that a very devoted follower of Chris Butler was a drug dealer and very likely funneled money into the organization without implicating his messiah. What would make him do that while sitting in jail, if not thought reform? Did he really make a conscious choice? What made it so that Charlie Manson followers would not implicate him in the murders he inspired but did not actually commit?
Now compare advertising to thought reform:
-Advertising “Uses an instructional mode to persuade consumer/buyer.”
- Thought reform, “Takes authoritarian & hierarchical stance; no full awareness on part of learner.”
- With advertising, “Consumer/buyer can accept or ignore communication.”
- In thought reform, “Group attempts to retain people forever.”
- In advertising, “Has a narrow goal of swaying opinion to promote and sell an idea, object, or program; another goal is to enhance seller & possibly buyer.”
- Thought reform, “Individualized target; hidden agenda (you will be changed one step at a time to become deployable to serve leaders).”
- Education respects differences and diversity.
- Advertisers put down the competition.
- But in thought reform, there is “No respect for differences.”
Remember? New guys never got the full load of philosophy at first. The ideas by which people might be turned off were avoided. For example, “if you join our cult you will have to be celibate, not eat meat or drink a glass of wine, change your attitudes about women, accept that other religions don’t have the full truth, and bow down to a man who claims to be the messiah of the whole world. Oh, and by the way, give over your whole life, family, labor, and most of your money!”
I’m sure you get the idea. A television news show or advertisement is profoundly different than a guru lecture. With the media and internet, your spiritual life is not at stake and you do not have the social structure to continually support the indoctrination and thought reform. There are too many sources and points of view, which is why Jagad Guru has forbidden most of his followers from reading the internet. (All they seem to be allowed to do is flood the internet with old Siddha quotes on every free blog available. If you notice, there are no discussions, forums, exchange of ideas, or even any new teachings from Chris Butler.) If it was an authentic religion, you would see questions answered and controversies examined. All Chris Butler’s followers can do is parrot old thoughts and answers.
The media can be used as a tool to reinforce thought reform, but it cannot enslave a person or make them behave the way a cult does. A person under the influence of thought reform only has the freedom to choose media that reinforces the programming. And that is not real choice.
Sorry....
Just Googling,
I understand where you are coming from and trying to say. From a general, overall perspective you could say that the media and cults are no different in that they try to persuade us to their point of view. But upon closer examination, you will see an enormous difference between the two, which is so elegantly shown on the Singer chart. See [www.culteducation.com]
It's really worth the time to study and compare the chart with your experiences in a cult and with some of your other interests.
While we can be influenced by the media, our thoughts are not actually RE-FORMATTED by it. You still have the ability to change your opinion when new information comes along.
There is a clearly defined spectrum on the chart. Each type of persuasion from Education--> Advertising--> Propaganda --> Indoctrination, all the way to --> Thought Reform employs zero to increasingly devious, exploitive processes. The intention of each category from education to thought reform is also profoundly different. Education is for our benefit. The users of thought reform have no interest in our benefit. The difference also is that we increasingly lose our ability to choose as we succumb to each category after education.
Have you ever been to a live hypnosis show or gone to a hypnotist to stop a bad habit? It is always surprising to see who goes under easily and who obviously is resistant. My father, a brilliant and inventive man used to say it was all nonsense, yet he would be the first guy to go under at entertainment hypnosis shows, according to my mom. I had dinner with some friends recently where hypnosis was the topic of conversation. One suggested that a person with greater intelligence is more susceptible to hypnosis because they make more connections in their thinking and have greater access to information in their brains, (but he couldn’t cite any research to prove this. ) Another suggested that it has nothing to do with intelligence, rather it is the more creative people with high imaginative capabilities who are most susceptible to hypnosis because they have greater access to the subconscious mind (one could argue that creativity and imagination is a form of higher level thinking/ intelligence). He also suggested that the ability to be hypnotized is an innate talent like the ability to draw and that it is also a skill that can be developed.
Googling, think about how you got involved in CB’s cult. Just like with hypnosis, you are put into a relaxed state of mind and had positive, high expectations about what would happen in your life as a result of the experience. You are inducted into a relaxed state of mind to receive new messages beyond your conscious mind. This was reinforced by a convincing and supportive peer group that seemed to be really nice (cool, reliable, educated, credible…) people. What you didn’t realize is that those new friends had already been deeply reformed. You didn’t “feel” manipulated or hypnotized, but there you and others were for years.
CB has followers chant mantras, make kirtans (group chanting with musical instruments), eat nice vegetarian food, listen to lectures. These are all very pleasant and relaxing experiences. Followers live a very healthy and clean lifestyle and manage ordinary businesses. What could be wrong with that? But while practicing the meditations and associating with people whose lives are completely invested in the cult, in this state, research has proven that you are very susceptible to hypnotic suggestions. Hypnosis can give you helpful suggestions to stop smoking or eat properly; or for entertainment purposes, make you act silly, but a cult uses the same techniques to make nefarious suggestions, like believing that an ordinary man is God’s representative on earth and you should give your life and money away to him. Where was your choice then? You really had none. You were set up (and luckily one of the few to escape.) You did not know then what you know now, so there was no choice. A reserved person does not go to a hypnotist's show to act like a chicken and get laughed at by the audience, but marvels later at how quickly and easily he was made to act that way.
A person who has been hypnotized will tell you they did not feel a thing. My father would argue pridefully with my mom that he never really went under. And with more meditation and practice, a follower becomes more adept at deepening the inductive process and reinforcing the cult dogma. I think that the people in Chris Butler’s cult honestly do not think they have been programmed. When you watch an ad or news on television, you can argue back, hold a different opinion, chose not to buy a product, turn it off, write a letter to the editor, email a congressman. You can’t do that in a cult.
Look at the difference between education on one end of the spectrum and thought reform. (Education defined as pure education, not tainted by politics or religion.)
See [www.culteducation.com]
- Education is based on “many bodies of knowledge, based on scientific findings in various fields.”
- With thought reform, the “Body of knowledge centers on changing people without their knowledge.”
Weren’t you taught that just by hearing the holy names of God and the pure devotee’s words that people would transform? That it would soften hearts, etc. You believed that by giving people prasadam (food offered to g0d and guru) and chanting out loud that this would also change the world. Why else put on Sunday feasts or put up with the crap you did?
Science was mocked as materialistic. Investigating things outside of the cult was discouraged. The base of knowledge was narrowed and focused solely on converting the world, right? Didn’t the group stop chanting the maha mantra (hare krishna) publicly and replace it with “Madonna Mohana Murari” to deceive the public? Didn’t devotees pass out free prasadam (food offered to Hindu g0ds) samples at Down to Earth or in beach parks?
- With education, a “two way pupil-teacher exchange encouraged.”
- With thought reform: “exchange occurs, communication is one-
sided.”
Every single interview (with the possible exception of the interview on CB’s Gentle Force Album), was FAKE and SCRIPTED by Jagad Guru Chris Butler himself. No one EVER dared to question him publicly. The pressure was/ is too great to ask him anything when you have doubts. Do you know of ANYONE who challenged him about anything while in the group? What happened if they did?
- In education, “Change occurs as science advances; as students & other scholars offer criticism; as students & citizens evaluate programs.”
- With thought reform, “Change occurs rarely; organization remains fairly rigid; change occurs primarily to improve thought reform effectiveness.”
Apparently, the changes that have occurred with Butler’s group since you were there is that they are employing more meditation, relaxation and hatha yoga exercise; going back to the hypno-suggestive techniques in “Psychic sleep” from Chris Butler’s Sai days. Without the direct experience of the very charismatic Chris Butler, in order to keep his cult going, he has taught his followers how to implant suggestions more effectively.
- Education is not deceptive.
- Thought reform is deceptive.
The group has been deceptive for a very long time. They have just become more adept at it. It became the whole societal infrastructure to be secretive. I think children growing up in this cult must not know anything about living in an open way, with honesty and having transparent dealings with the outside world.
At least in Hawaii, where the cult started, it used to be a very open subculture until Chris Butler decided to meddle in politics. Gradually, Jagad Guru’s paranoia appeared and he became more and more unavailable and secretive. Followers were told never to reveal Siddha’s whereabouts or talk about his projects. They were told not to chant the maha mantra publicly and to dress like ordinary people. People no longer carried their beads around and used crowd-counter clickers to chant the mantra all day (or was it just a way to keep the thought reform running?) The Science of Identity Foundation was created to run operations and apparently put up smoke screens. Communications were limited to top followers and initiated members. Businesses and politicians deny connections with the cult.
It is common and public knowledge that a very devoted follower of Chris Butler was a drug dealer and very likely funneled money into the organization without implicating his messiah. What would make him do that while sitting in jail, if not thought reform? Did he really make a conscious choice? What made it so that Charlie Manson followers would not implicate him in the murders he inspired but did not actually commit?
Now compare advertising to thought reform:
-Advertising “Uses an instructional mode to persuade consumer/buyer.”
- Thought reform, “Takes authoritarian & hierarchical stance; no full awareness on part of learner.”
- With advertising, “Consumer/buyer can accept or ignore communication.”
- In thought reform, “Group attempts to retain people forever.”
- In advertising, “Has a narrow goal of swaying opinion to promote and sell an idea, object, or program; another goal is to enhance seller & possibly buyer.”
- Thought reform, “Individualized target; hidden agenda (you will be changed one step at a time to become deployable to serve leaders).”
- Education respects differences and diversity.
- Advertisers put down the competition.
- But in thought reform, there is “No respect for differences.”
Remember? New guys never got the full load of philosophy at first. The ideas by which people might be turned off were avoided. For example, “if you join our cult you will have to be celibate, not eat meat or drink a glass of wine, change your attitudes about women, accept that other religions don’t have the full truth, and bow down to a man who claims to be the messiah of the whole world. Oh, and by the way, give over your whole life, family, labor, and most of your money!”
I’m sure you get the idea. A television news show or advertisement is profoundly different than a guru lecture. With the media and internet, your spiritual life is not at stake and you do not have the social structure to continually support the indoctrination and thought reform. There are too many sources and points of view, which is why Jagad Guru has forbidden most of his followers from reading the internet. (All they seem to be allowed to do is flood the internet with old Siddha quotes on every free blog available. If you notice, there are no discussions, forums, exchange of ideas, or even any new teachings from Chris Butler.) If it was an authentic religion, you would see questions answered and controversies examined. All Chris Butler’s followers can do is parrot old thoughts and answers.
The media can be used as a tool to reinforce thought reform, but it cannot enslave a person or make them behave the way a cult does. A person under the influence of thought reform only has the freedom to choose media that reinforces the programming. And that is not real choice.
Continuing cult rantings
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: July 19, 2008 05:04AM
OKAY, HERE WE GO AGAIN...
...more Jagad Guru Chris Butler, founder of the Science of Identity Foundation, guru of the world,
ranting on about his move to the mainland followed by another page from his "Gentle Force" (ack, ack) album...
and then some more "problems".
...more Jagad Guru Chris Butler, founder of the Science of Identity Foundation, guru of the world,
ranting on about his move to the mainland followed by another page from his "Gentle Force" (ack, ack) album...
and then some more "problems".
more from album
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: July 19, 2008 05:16AM
The album "Siddha: A Very Gentle Force" was divided into two sections, "This World" and "A Different World". What follows are the first two pages of the insert for "A Different World". Contrast this public offering with the private rantings of Chris Butler.
Shockingly "different"!
Shockingly "different"!
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
just-googling
()
Date: July 21, 2008 03:55PM
Quote
Vera City
Just Googling, didn’t you hear him say people should go on a 6 month fast? What was the reason?
I should also mention the case of the woman who was told to fast from food, water AND ALSO TO FAST FROM SLEEP as well. Why the harsh punishment?
The milk in HIS refrigerator was past the expiry date!
Seems like guru has enough time to surf "transcendental waves" all day long, but not enough time to do something as "mundane" as reading the expiry date on his milk and ordering new milk.
Things seemed to get more and more absurd. So what's next? Maybe CB's insect control crew will be told to kill themselves because a fly came into his house?
Quote
Vera City
Have you ever been to a live hypnosis show or gone to a hypnotist to stop a bad habit? It is always surprising to see who goes under easily and who obviously is resistant.
No, I have never been to one, but a friend of mine once went to one of these shows and he was quite surprised to see what percentage of the people were able to be hypnotized. In this particular case these people were made to play imaginary musical instruments on the stage. One can only wonder if some cult leaders like CB have the power to hypnotize people? Is it the same mechanism that drives an intelligent woman to fast from food and sleep for a ridiculous reason, as what drives people to play imaginary musical instruments on stage???
The question as to whether watching television has a hypnotic effect is debatable, and is obviously not a subject to be discussed on this forum... However, it may be relevant in that Chris Butler's shows do air on some local networks in some cities. One wonders whether the powers of the hypnotist can be transferred via TV, or if it is essential that one has to be in the physical presence of the hypnotist?
It was reported that when Uri Geller first appeared on TV in Britian, at the same time that he was bending spoons with his mind, some astounded folk who were eating their dinners at home had phoned into the TV station, stating that their forks and spoons had started bending at the same time as when Geller was doing his trick live on TV! But I digress!....
My impression is that many cult members became attracted to the eastern religion via the TV video lectures. They believed that they would get something from following this guy. Namely ~ freedom from the "wheel of birth and death" ~ And as it is stated in their holy scripture (Bhagavad Gita) that one has to surrender to a "guru" this is exactly what they have done. Of course, they seemed to miss the part about the guru not being a mind-controlling ego-freak and narcissist....!
Quote
Vera City
The media can be used as a tool to reinforce thought reform, but it cannot enslave a person or make them behave the way a cult does. A person under the influence of thought reform only has the freedom to choose media that reinforces the programming. And that is not real choice.
This is very true, and you have raised some interesting points here, Vera.
I do remember that once CB got heavily involved in politics, the disciples also took an interest in this as well. Many of them started watching the TV news on a daily basis. I did this as well. But, over time, just as I got sick of listening to the negativity and hypocrisy and anti-homosexual rants of the Chris Butler lectures, I also got sick of the bad news and doom and gloom of the TV news. And of course the similarity ends there.
:)
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: July 23, 2008 01:40AM
Quote
just-googling
Things seemed to get more and more absurd. So what's next? Maybe CB's insect control crew will be told to kill themselves because a fly came into his house?
LOL! Or hang themselves with fly paper!
Quote
just-googling
My impression is that many cult members became attracted to the eastern religion via the TV video lectures. They believed that they would get something from following this guy. Namely ~ freedom from the "wheel of birth and death" ~ And as it is stated in their holy scripture (Bhagavad Gita) that one has to surrender to a "guru" this is exactly what they have done. Of course, they seemed to miss the part about the guru not being a mind-controlling ego-freak and narcissist....!
Yes, but the television show alone didn't do the indoctrination. There was follow-up. A phone number and mailing address was posted on the show and the devotees made the follow up contacts to get you in their milieu control. I guess they would feel you out, invite you to a local meditation class, lecture, or Sunday gathering. By the time the shows came on the air, CB was already impossible to meet without going through his disciples first. They would have to have determined who was "serious enough". But it's not like they would wake up in the morning and think, "hmm, if anyone calls from the show today, I will systematically brainwash and reform their thoughts..." They really believe they are "saving" people from the wheel of birth and death, etc. and that there is nothing wrong with what they are doing. They don't even realize they are doing something wrong! (All except the ones who are laughing all the way to the bank!)
The documents I've posted prove CB's and VD's (the phony yogini Wai Lana of TV fame) paranoia is quite strong --- references to assassination plots and VD blaming the followers for getting CB sick and claims they want to kill him! That was a typical tactic to get people in line - along with the "I'll just leave the planet" number. The one document that I am missing is the one where essentially CB asks for lots of money to atone for offenses. The one document that made a lot of people leave the group where he blames ALL his followers for VD's head injury.
The thing that really gets me angry is that there were all these young people sincerely doing their best to set things up for him. One guy gave up a full scholarship to a prestigious art college to work for him for free. He ends up doing grunt work for "gurudev" and getting yelled at for it! These kids were not professional real estate agents and contractors! Why didn't CB just pay pros!? Because Chris Butler and Wai Lana VD are charlatans, fake gurus, and thieves with no conscience.
A different world continues
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: July 23, 2008 10:39PM
More album lyrics from "A Different World"
Siddha sang these ballads like a troubador. They show the sweet, sensuous, and very romantic side of this religion that many found so appealing. His indoctrinated (initiated and wannabe initiates) were not allowed to listen and "enjoy" this album. They were only allowed to listen to chanting and lecture tapes.
Chances are current followers only have bootleg versions. Like "Sai Speaks", these images from the album are rare artifacts from the cult. They also come from a time period where Siddha was very creative. That energy later went into promoting his wife Wai Lana, likened to Yoko Ono for changing the cult and isolating Chris Butler even further from his followers and friends. She made sure the money kept rolling in and that she and her children were well taken care of and had every special privilege. Butler ordained her a pure devotee, consort of the "guru of the whole world", himself.
Juxtapose these romantic lyrics of a spiritual love from an ancient religion with the shrill anger in the memo....
On a dark humor note, it is funny who is calling who a thief!
The document also reveals the type of self-flagellation a follower has to endure as described in the Ofshe article, a key factor that distinguishes coercive persuasion from education or authentic religious practices. This reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack (public humiliation) is used to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance. In the following memo a follower has to publicly confess his "sins" to all other disciples. See [www.culteducation.com]
Garland problems and self-flagellation:
Siddha sang these ballads like a troubador. They show the sweet, sensuous, and very romantic side of this religion that many found so appealing. His indoctrinated (initiated and wannabe initiates) were not allowed to listen and "enjoy" this album. They were only allowed to listen to chanting and lecture tapes.
Chances are current followers only have bootleg versions. Like "Sai Speaks", these images from the album are rare artifacts from the cult. They also come from a time period where Siddha was very creative. That energy later went into promoting his wife Wai Lana, likened to Yoko Ono for changing the cult and isolating Chris Butler even further from his followers and friends. She made sure the money kept rolling in and that she and her children were well taken care of and had every special privilege. Butler ordained her a pure devotee, consort of the "guru of the whole world", himself.
Juxtapose these romantic lyrics of a spiritual love from an ancient religion with the shrill anger in the memo....
On a dark humor note, it is funny who is calling who a thief!
The document also reveals the type of self-flagellation a follower has to endure as described in the Ofshe article, a key factor that distinguishes coercive persuasion from education or authentic religious practices. This reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack (public humiliation) is used to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance. In the following memo a follower has to publicly confess his "sins" to all other disciples. See [www.culteducation.com]
Garland problems and self-flagellation:
Behavior of Female Disciples and Oprah
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: July 30, 2008 08:04PM
"A Different World" continues with Siddha's comments on his songs. He is describing the various stages of spiritual love in Bhakti Yoga.
The mantra above the first page is an offering of "obeisances" and submission to ISKCON founder Bhaktivedanta. Clearly this was written prior to his declaring himself "acharya" (guru) of the whole world.
Contrast this with the memo that shows his extreme aversion to women touching him, even in a professional capacity such as clipping a microphone on his shirt. This order was given after he was married to Wai Lana aka Vaishnava dasi.
This letter also discourages any independent thinking. Of course CB would not want the exposure on Oprah because her team would quickly bust him as a cult! Can you imagine CB's people telling Oprah that no female staff members should touch him! At any rate, some of the more negative and weird ideas and practices in the cult would be readily questioned and challenged --- something no cult leader can endure. There is no way that Chris Butler could stand up to any public scrutiny, which is why he has such an elaborate infrastructure that keeps him hidden from the public eye, as well as from many of his current followers.
This album, "Siddha: A Very Gentle Force" is extraordinarily sweet and romantic. Who could ever imagine that the man behind the gas mask was a petulant, self-deluded paranoid.
Behavior of Female Disciples towards CB and discouraging any independent thoughts or actions.
Coming up next:
The other half of Gentle Force ---" This World"
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2008 08:08PM by Vera City.
The mantra above the first page is an offering of "obeisances" and submission to ISKCON founder Bhaktivedanta. Clearly this was written prior to his declaring himself "acharya" (guru) of the whole world.
Contrast this with the memo that shows his extreme aversion to women touching him, even in a professional capacity such as clipping a microphone on his shirt. This order was given after he was married to Wai Lana aka Vaishnava dasi.
This letter also discourages any independent thinking. Of course CB would not want the exposure on Oprah because her team would quickly bust him as a cult! Can you imagine CB's people telling Oprah that no female staff members should touch him! At any rate, some of the more negative and weird ideas and practices in the cult would be readily questioned and challenged --- something no cult leader can endure. There is no way that Chris Butler could stand up to any public scrutiny, which is why he has such an elaborate infrastructure that keeps him hidden from the public eye, as well as from many of his current followers.
This album, "Siddha: A Very Gentle Force" is extraordinarily sweet and romantic. Who could ever imagine that the man behind the gas mask was a petulant, self-deluded paranoid.
Behavior of Female Disciples towards CB and discouraging any independent thoughts or actions.
Coming up next:
The other half of Gentle Force ---" This World"
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2008 08:08PM by Vera City.
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