Something that strikes me about that (above) transcript is that at no point did any disciple ask Prabhupada what the sastric support for such a prediction was; in other words, "Where, Prabhupada, does it say that in the scriptures, or when was it spoken of by the previous acaryas?", I would have asked him. That seems like a reasonable and intelligent question to me. But nobody seems to have thought of it at the time. They all just basically say, "Wow!" like they are hearing it from God Himself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2008 03:27AM by zeuszor.

Guru, sastra, and sadhu, right? I don't see it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2008 04:17AM by zeuszor.

Zeuszor~
You have stated here that you practice the HK religion and you believe in it, but I don’t. Let’s just agree to disagree on that count and continue to appreciate each other's contributions to this forum. You've brought a lot of great stuff. I’m not against you personally and don’t want to step on your toes, but I will criticize some of the ideas from that group that apply.

This forum thread is about a specific cult, which IMO is an offshoot of another cult (ISKCON), which is an offshoot of an ancient religion and tradition with thousands of branches, some cult-like, some not. I think ACB’s failures as a religious leader are just as grievous and harmful as CB’s behaviors (but that is a topic that needs it’s own thread).

This paragraph followed the one you posted from Swami Iconoclast’s blog *:

Quote

“Rascals who actually use their brains to analyze this prophesy may ask: It has been thirty three years since Srila Prabhupada made this prophesy. The Soviet Union has collapsed and Russia is no longer Communist. The United States is fighting a "War on Terror" instead. Does this mean that Prabhupada was wrong? No. Because a perfect guru like Prabhupada can never be wrong. His prophesy must take place! There are still some hard-core Communists in Russia and very soon they will take over Russian government and fight the United States. Then the demonic civilization will be destroyed. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! ”

Events unfolded profoundly different from ACB’s prophesy. ACB was just another fraud with an interest in politics who watched the 6:00 o’clock news. He was no prophet. But the above paragraph illustrates how followers will twist reality to fit their programming.

"Wooo hoooo! Let the USA and Russia bomb the demons! Great for preaching!" No, just more crazy religious people trying to dominate the world. "Jaya Shri Plankton!"

CB did talk about the WWIII thing. There was a tape procured directly from the BBT (not for general consumption). It was heard by CB followers with CB present and to comment afterwards. The effect was all the OOOOOHS, AAHHHHHS, and HEAVY MAN it got from followers. Better “get serious”. Guru must be right because he is infallible. CB must be right because he is a pure deeeevoooooteeee.

Seems to be a traditional M.O. for cult leaders to bring in the Dooms Day scenario once in awhile. Even when proven wrong, people still rationalize that they were right! One apology was that when ACB’s prediction did not come true it was because of worldwide chanting. “Yeah, yeah, that’s the ticket!” CB has his own doomsday predictions (well documented on this forum); like the bird flu epidemic wiping out all the demons too. "Great for preaching! Heh heh…"

*Guru iconoclast also wrote a blog about women that is hilarious, if not totally twisted…(e.g., breasts and nipples are agents of maya! LOL! ) see ACB On women

Quote

ACB: And the law is you cannot marry more than one wife. The rascal lawgiver. So many women, there must be... One husband, at the present moment, must marry at least one dozen wives, otherwise they're going to hell. At least, she will know that "I have got a husband." Maybe the husband of twelve wives, but they are anxious to have a husband. That facility should be given to them. They are anxious.”

CB differs here a bit. He did not like the men who experimented with more than one wife. He feels women should marry more than one man as Katyayani, Paramatma, and his own wife VD did!

~ Proud to be a Rascal



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2008 04:50AM by Vera City.

You have stated here that you practice the HK religion and you believe in it, but I don’t.

Thanks for your respectful attitude and maturity.

I never said that I "believe in it," whatever that means.

What I said is that I like kirtana and prasadam, doing some service, associating with the devotees, going to the temple for darsana, and reading Prabhupada's books.

They probably would have called me a "fringie" years ago.

I have a lot of questions, and doubts, and criticisms about HK and ISKCON, too, and am hardly here as an apologist. I am here as a researcher and have tried to remain objective.

Heck, personally, I identify as a Christian and go to a little Episcopal church also and have a good relationship with the priest there. I like to read the Bible too and in HK terms would call Jesus my highest siksa-guru.

I will again state that I was an atheist until I read Prabhupada's Gita and started chanting and that was a real milestone in my life, a real turning point in the development of my consciousness.

Yes, like I said, I have heard a lot of strange, apocryphal things about the "old days."

This conversation has made me think, I can tell you that much.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2008 05:04AM by zeuszor.

Quote
zeuszor
Thanks for your respectful attitude and maturity.
...

I have a lot of questions, and doubts, and criticisms about HK and ISKCON, too, and am hardly here as an apologist. I am here as a researcher and have tried to remain objective.

Heck, personally, I identify as a Christian and go to a little Episcopal church ... in HK terms would call Jesus my highest siksa-guru.

I will again state that I was an atheist until I read Prabhupada's Gita and started chanting and that was a real milestone in my life, a real turning point in the development of my consciousness.

Yes, like I said, I have heard a lot of apocryphal things about the "old days."

This conversation has made me think, I can tell you that much.

Okay, we're cool. It's important to know history and understand how it unfolds. It's a good predictor of the future.

"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
~George Santayana

Irie-I.

Now I am getting word that that devotee that looks like CB is neither CB nor Daruka, but is a devotee named Gopinath das. Oh well, little matter. He's certainly not CB and I think that that's the point.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2008 05:32AM by zeuszor.

CHRIS BUTLER - POLYTHEISTIC TEACHINGS BEHIND THE VENEER OF CHRISTIAN MONOTHEISM.


PARODYING THE FORMER SPIRITUAL MASTER.

With a self-given title of 'Jagud Guru', soi-disant "Teacher of the whole world", one would expect Chris Butler to be at least au fait with the world, and comfortable in it, rather than wrangling with Christians, particularly with his pièce de résistance "so-called" prefix, on "Christians", "society" and 'this', 'that' and the 'other'. And given to aggressive proselytism, particularly through repetitive superimposing of the Hindu ( 'Sanâtana Dharma' ( q.v. )) doctrine of 'reincarnation' on to Christian doctrines. Butler evidently inherited this doctrine et alii., from his former spiritual master, the late A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada ( 1896 - 1977 ), and continues parodying it with irritating and monotonous regularity.

THE DOCTRINAL PARADOX.

Reincarnation is a Hindu doctrine, and is incontrovertibly incongruous with Judaeo-Christian beliefs and doctrines. Butler claims: "Many so-called Christian teachers ... don't appreciate transmigration of the soul or the science of reincarnation ...". ( sic ). ( Jagad Guru, 'Understanding Karma', Science of Identity Foundation, 1995, p.4 ).

Why Butler believes that Christians should want to "appreciate transmigration" or the pseudo-"science of reincarnation"; I'm yet to discover. Butler himself, notwithstanding all his preposterous rhetoric, and his insistence that "the answer is quite simple" ( sic ) ( op. cit., p. 4; ) hasn't provided a rationale. Where indeed, is the 'simple answer' of which he boasts? Can Butler succeed where centuries of Hindu scholarship have failed? Vis à vis, the Hindu doctrine of 'transmigration' is unambiguously incongruous with Judaeo-Christian beliefs and dogmas. They are as different as chalk from cheese. Consequently, one can only deduce from this, that Butler is advocating neither, but rather 'Butlerism'.

Reincarnation, and its associated doctrine of karma, has remained an unrationalized belief since its first inclusion ( in default of theological scrutiny ) in the Chândogya Upanishad between 900 - 800 BC ( q.v. ), followed by the Bhagavad-Gîtâ between 400 - 300 BC ( q.v. ). It is nowhere to be found in the oldest, and most venerated, document in Hinduism, i.e., the Vedas circa 1500 - 800 BC.

DOWNGRADING THE NEW TESTAMENT.

Butler audaciously attempts to diminish the sacred character of the New Testament by describing it merely as a "small little book", and invalidate its contents by adding "who can believe that!" Furthermore, he had the impertinence to undervalue its contents as "...extremely limited, partial," and make an analogy of it with one of his "two hour lectures." ( See 'Jagud Guru Speaks: Is God Really Lovable?' Oleo Public Access TV, 2004 ).

Would Butler have the same contemptuous irreverence to reduce the status of the Vedas to a mere "small little book", challenge its credibility by asking "who can believe that!" And diminish its contents as "...extremely limited, partial". And presumptuously compares it to one of his "two hour lectures." Would he disparage the Vedas as he did to the New Testament [ particularly in respect to the designated 18 'silent years' ( q.v. ) of Jesus' life between the year 1 or 2 ( q.v. ) ( Luke 2:41-52 ), and year 19 or 21 ( q.v. ) ( Luke 3:21,22 )]; by querying the 600 'silent years' of reincarnation's absence from the Vedas?

INTERPOSING HINDUISM INTO CHRISTIANITY.

In the same television programme ( vs., ) Butler accentuates the unknown factors, or rather the commonly designated 'silent years', of Jesus' "activities", "instructions", and 'teachings'; in the New Testament material. And assumes a presumptuous prerogative to embellish ( or saffronize! ) Jesus' teachings with "bhakti-yoga", "astanga-yoga", "kundalini-yoga", "mystic-yoga"; and "reincarnation" to boot. From where in the New Testament, can Butler quote from, to support these extravagant assumptions of Jesus having taught these schools of 'yoga', and reincarnation? He is, quite clearly, attempting to exploit the New Testament quietude, of the purported 'silent years', in which to interpolate his version of Hindu beliefs and doctrines into Christianity.

MASQUERADING POLYTHEISM AS MONOTHEISM.

Butler masquerades pantheism on the platform of Judaeo-Christian monotheism. His teachings are superficially based upon Hinduism which has a multitude of gods ( e.g., Vishnu, Shiva, Brahmâ et alii ( q.v. )), whom he has not publicly denied. Notwithstanding his feigned Christian rhetoric, embellishments of Christian ethos and piety, he is advocating all that Jesus Christ, His followers, His Holy Church; and Sacred Scripture oppose; viz., "You shall have no other gods before Me." ( Exodus, 20:3 ). Butler is not a Christian, nor was he born into the Hindu caste systems ( varna or jâti ( q.v. )). His writings and lectures are indicative of one not at all au courant of either Hindu or Christian doctrines, but rather of one who oscillates between the two, confused by even the most fundamental theological, and doctrinal differences; particularly regarding 'pantheism' and 'monotheism'.

TRANSGRESSOR OF LITERARY CONVENTIONS.

Butler asserts that 'so-called Christians do not actually have answers', ( op. cit., p. 4 ). This, like many of his other assertions, is conspicuously unaccompanied with: names, places, dates; and reference sources; to validate the veracity of his assertions. This assertion ( et alii. ) are suppositional, and until Butler refrains from ignoring literary conventions ( and unfeigned open dialogue or debate ), and publish names, places etc., in support of his assertions; his writings and lectures will continue to remain unadulterated conjecture.

TIMOROUSLY RUNNING FROM REASONED ARGUMENTS.

I have been responding, with reasoned arguments and evidential supports, to this assertion ( i.e., 'so-called Christians do not actually have answers' ), et alii., of Butler's numerous fallacies and disinformations. But when called into question, with truths and facts, [ e.g., 7 November, 2000, misrepresenting Jesus as saying: "As you sow, so shall you reap" ( op. cit., p.6 ) in support of his superinducing polytheistic Hindu beliefs of 'metempsychosis' and 'karma' into Christian text. ], Butler, the soi-disant "Jagud Guru" - "Teacher of the whole world" - timorously runs to ground; abandoning his inept followers to take up the cudgels. Regrettably, postings on my own website, by his followers, reflect very little ( if anything at all! ) cerebral benefits from being under the tutorship of their "Teacher of the whole world".

MEAGRE PARROTINGS.

Butler is a pathetic caricature of Prabhupada, and a sardonic blasphemer ( See 'Jagud Guru Speaks: Is God Really Lovable?' Oleo Public Access TV, 2004 ), as well as a manipulator, with a panache for misquoting, and misemployment, of the New Testament text, and Christian doctrines; for the sole purpose of proselytizing the unwary to his cult. His comprehension of 'reality' is confined within the consensus of what he has taught his followers, not how to think; but rather what to think; most of which are meagre parrotings inherited from Prabhupada. Consequently, constructing a quasi, or rather, pseudo-reality, with very little, or no resemblance to the measurable physical world.

A CONFIRMED BLASPHEMER TEACHING CHRISTIANS TO BE CHRISTIANS.

Additional to Butler's assumed status of "Teacher of the whole world," he is evidently a self-appointed authority, critic, and judge on what Christians, in his opinion, are supposed to be taught. Will he censor the Pope ( Rome ), the Patriarchs ( Constantinople and Moscow ), and all the Protestant church leaders for: "teaching religiosity rather than real religion. Instead of teaching love for God," ( sic. ) ( Jagad Guru, 'Is God Your Servant?' November 2007 ), and advise them that "the only way to self-realization is to chant the Holy Name, chant the Holy Name, chant the Holy Name. Haribol Haribol" ( sic ) ( ibid ). What next!

Will his authority extend to teaching God how to ' chant Haribol! Haribol!' And teach God how to be God? Or even to teach God how to be a "...faceless big dude!", "...cold as ice OK!", "...hard as concrete", and a "... sadist"; as he so bumptiously and brazenly did on the Oleo Public Access TV, 2004. Those blasphemous descriptions of God would have earned Butler a standing ovation from Satan himself!

HARE KRISHNA RENEGADE.

Butler's spiritual master ( Prabhupada ) severely reprimanded him for "so many" "discrepancies" that he informed him: "I cannot allow you to do all these things which are completely detrimental to our line of disciplic succession." ( A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, letter, 15 June, 1972. Los Angeles. ) Butler is a renegade from the Hare Krishna Movement, and his claim to be "a bona fides spiritual master coming in a long line of spiritual teachers that" ( According to Prabhupada ) "began with God Himself" ( sic ) op. cit., p. 30, is disputable. I believe that it is safe to assume that his disciplic succession ( paramparâ ) has, on the strength of Prabhupada's letter, been damaged and invalidated.


Rev. Father Maximiadis

[www.fathershomepage.com]

Rev. Fr. A. Maximiadis

You know, honestly, I've never really read this thread at all until just recently, and have been reading about CB all evening out of a new interest.

This is something, really scary stuff. Heavy-duty. CB was obviously a narcissist from early early on, huh?

[www.cultofbutler.com]

In his considerably revised personal history Butler would come to represent to his followers that he had attained to the highest level of enlightenment in the 'impersonal' philosophies (those which do not recognise God as an
individual but within each human soul) only to encounter God himself and so become certain of his genuine existence.

At the time Butler was regularly using LSD, a fact he admits to in Sai Speaks and his publication "Drugs" and it was during a 'trip' that he experienced his divine awakening. He would later claim that the name Sai, which means 'master'
was bestowed on him by Krishna. The name was actually bestowed on him by his initiating spiritual master of Sivananda Ashram as part of his full initiated name Sai Stokala Adhikari, which appears in Sai Speaks.

Hawaiian followers of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami were affronted by Sai's imitiation of their practices, including leading sankirtan (public chanting parties), collecting money and claims to be following their guru. Bhaktivedanta renounced any connection to Sai and directed his disciples to print and distribute a leaflet of his own design to inform the general public that Sai was not representing Krishna Consciousness.

So even Prabhupada himself denounced CB back then.

It seems a bit like what would have happened if David McKay had joined ISKCON and not the COG. Self-interest, disrespect and disruption, those are the common denominators I see.

This, to me, is amazing. I can't believe that I have not read more about this guy CB before now; I'll keep following the thread and, if I may, will try and help in any way I can.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2008 01:01PM by zeuszor.

Dear Zeusor,

Doesn't the similarity here with another particular cult leader, strike you?

Butler is a renegade from the Hare Krishna Movement, and his claim to be "a bona fides spiritual master coming in a long line of spiritual teachers that" ( According to Prabhupada ) "began with God Himself" ( sic ) op. cit., p. 30, is disputable. (Thank you Father Maximiadis)

McKay is a renegade from the Children of God, and his claim to be "a bona fide Apostle coming with a long line of scriptural teachings that" (According to Thebullthatgetslouder) "began with God himself" (Sick old git! Age >60) is disputable.

Two individuals, purportedly worlds apart, yet nevertheless bearing some decidedly common tendencies towards narcissism, malevolence and pathological dishonesty.

Are we not just returning to Jung's archetypes here....the preconscious psychic dispositions, that inevitably lead the criminally sick to prey (in whatever form) on who ever they are able to temporarily dupe into trusting them......I realise it's become unfashionable to measure the skulls of those so inevitably inclined (Craniometry) however perhaps we could limit our anthopological criminlogy to identifying the crucial genetic DNA, fundamental to humanity, that they are both missing....

.....or could it all perhaps be more like the Island of Doctor Moreau, where McKay and Butler are actually being true to type (the "goat" and "viper" of scriptures?) and the only appearance of humanity they are capable of, is merely that which they are able to briefly extract from their human victims, the hunt for more of which forever perpetuates....

Quote
Father Maximiadis
CHRIS BUTLER - POLYTHEISTIC TEACHINGS BEHIND THE VENEER OF CHRISTIAN MONOTHEISM.

Rev. Father Maximiadis

[www.fathershomepage.com]

Good critique Father. Did you have an opportunity to read the "Jesus and Krishna: The Relationship" tract posted earlier on this forum? I've always wanted to see a good critique from a real Christian theologian on that piece. That was the primary recruitment pamphlet aimed at people with a Christian background. What are your thoughts?