Alright. CB or not CB, I don't think that's not very important, anymore. But thanks for the little GBC history, that's very accurate. For the record, at least the public is enlightened with what sort environment the Iskcon had during the 70s. They are like goons and mafiosis clad in saintly fashion. We need more accounts like this. Thanks Zeuszor.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2008 11:07AM by dharmabum.

You are welcome. I guess that I am what they used to call a "fringie" and have heard a lot of apocryphal stuff like that from older devotees.

And as an aside: Arjuna, the other devotee in the photo? With the hoodie? He and I took prasadam together after kirtana at the temple just tonight and that is definitely him, he confirmed it for me. He lives in Dallas now too, same as PJ. What a trip, huh? And I was not even born yet when that photo was taken, wow.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2008 10:55AM by zeuszor.

Yeh, I thought that the guy in the photo with the turtleneck was not CB ~ there is quite a resemblance, though...

Thanks, Z, for the history of the GBC from PJ ... Many of us were uncertain as to whether the assassination threat was real or not. I, for one, thought that it could have been just an empty threat made in the heat of the argument ...

Nonetheless, it's still difficult to believe that these characters were serious about the assassination, seeing as how their religion forbids the killing of even an animal...

And it's even more incredible that ACB himself did not immediately fire them from their positions for even considering such a thing as an assassination???

Oh yes, it's true. PJ was the Boston temple president for a period of time during the mid-seventies and heard about the GBC's machinations directly, as here was there, in Mayapur, with Prabhupada at the time in '75. I totally, 100% believe him. PJ does not have the internet at his house, otherwise he'd probably tell you all about it himself.

"You have to understand that in my mind, it wasn't murder. It was dispatching an undesirable element from the community"

--Thomas Drescher (Tirtha)

[www.culteducation.com]

And it's even more incredible that ACB himself did not immediately fire them from their positions for even considering such a thing as an assassination???

I asked PJ about that very point. His response was that Prabhupada by that point ('75/'76) had more or less completely turned ISKCON over to the GBC and had a much more "hands off" leadership role, in terms of directly handling day-to-day affairs, internal politics, and such then he had had previously. So Prabhupada did not necessarily know what the GBC were up to in all respects at the time. The GBC, in fact, kept Prabhupada in the dark about a lot of things and directly disregarded many things that Prabhupada told them to do (and, of course, things he told them not to do). Somebody else (who was equally panicked about what was going on) came and told him about what the GBC were up to in terms of how they planned to "handle" Chris Butler and at that point Prabhupada "stepped in".

But why didn't he fire the conspirators? PJ didn't answer that directly and I do not know. I guess that that is a matter of conjecture and we'll talk about it the next time I see him.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2008 12:41PM by zeuszor.

It is a somewhat apocryphal story in the first place, a persistent rumor with no supporting documentation to confirm anything about it, and I do not know for a fact that all the details are true in every respect. You got me on that one. Just like the question of Visnujana: nobody really knows.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2008 12:50PM by zeuszor.

Thanks, Z, for your knowledge on this important issue ... This certainly proves that it was more like a cult than a genuine religion, huh?

_____________________

On another line of thought... Does anyone out there know what became of Chris Butler's book entitlted 'DRUGS, SUICIDE, AND DIVORCE' ? I know that it was a very thick book and a lot of research and man-hours went into it. Was this just another project that wasted so much time, money and resources of people who should have been looking after their children, families, etc?

Maybe we should re-write the book with the following teaser on the back cover:


DRUGS ~ Read how Tusta and other bigwigs in the cult laundered millions of dollars from the sale of illicit drugs, in order to propel Chris Butler's luxurious lifestyle...

SUICIDE ~ Read how so many devotees felt suicidal after being condemned for such sinful acts as not plugging in the master's lamp ... delivering the master's breakfast five minutes late ... not purchasing the correct light bulb for the master's home ... etc. etc. etc. Read how so many devotees within the cult became suicidal after not being able to live up to the high ideals of a "pure devotee" e.g. experiencing (horror of horrors) sexual pleasure after taking a vow not to engage in "illicit sex" ...

DIVORCE ~ Read how the divorce rate within this cult is probably the highest rate among any group of people in the world. No doubt, they are following in the footsteps of their magnanimous leaders such as Vd, Kd, TK swami, etc.

___________________

There was a girl from Australia
Whose motto was: 'I'm gonna nail ya'
Her hobby was haggling.
She became obsessed with Just Babbling.
Crikey... don't call us... we'll e-mail ya.

There is another girl from Australia
Who is suffering from schizophrenia
She believes her name's Justin,
Her hobby is ball bustin'...
But overall her life's a complete failure.

:)

Quote
zeuszor
PJ recollects that the GBC (who were convened in India) elected to have CB assassinated for openly opposing the book-distribution, big-time fund raising model edict. When Prabhupada learned of what the GBC had decided with regards to CB, he was horrified, and ordered them not to have CB killed.

Thanks z - That is the rumor that all of the Jagad Guru Chris Butler followers were told and believed. The effect was to bond a person more to guru and the group. Those that travelled with CB to ISKCON enclaves witnessed hostility first hand, so the threats were believable, however even if it was true, it does not exonerate CB from any of his behaviors as a cult leader in his own right. And not all ISKCON dudes considered CB an enemy.

Zeuszor – Can you ask the old timers if they remember ACB’s WWIII lecture? Or any other doomsday predictions? That also became the fabric of CB’s cult.

Quote
just-googling
'DRUGS, SUICIDE, AND DIVORCE'
Maybe we should re-write the book with the following teaser on the back cover:

DRUGS ~ Read how Tusta and other bigwigs in the cult laundered millions of dollars from the sale of illicit drugs, in order to propel Chris Butler's luxurious lifestyle...

SUICIDE ~ Read how so many devotees felt suicidal after being condemned for such sinful acts as not plugging in the master's lamp ... delivering the master's breakfast five minutes late ... not purchasing the correct light bulb for the master's home ... etc. etc. etc. Read how so many devotees within the cult became suicidal after not being able to live up to the high ideals of a "pure devotee" e.g. experiencing (horror of horrors) sexual pleasure after taking a vow not to engage in "illicit sex" ...

DIVORCE ~ Read how the divorce rate within this cult is probably the highest rate among any group of people in the world. No doubt, they are following in the footsteps of their magnanimous leaders such as Vd, Kd, TK swami, etc.

Just Googling – LOL! That is the whole thing! Such a contrast between what was preached and what actually happened. They probably figured as long as they didn’t take the drugs or have anything to do with directly dealing, then they weren’t breaking the regulative principles! Didn't matter that it was illegal or destroyed lives of "karmis". Or as long as their wives were deemed pure devotees, then it wasn’t sex either!

More guru care rantings:









Seems like g0d's best friend couldn't control the state of Arizona's Forest Service from controlled burnings for the safety of the general public and health of the forest! This man is such a control freak! You'd think if he was such a pure mouthpiece of g0d that the g0dhead would at least give him a nice set of lungs!?

These people are too much! They can't take responsibility for their own lives in any way except for raking in the fruits of other's labors!

more to come.....
I want to contrast this to the "Gentle Force" album...

Here is a photo of hypothermic "Siddha" in an Oxygen mask in a Los Angeles recording studio. This picture was the beginning of the "This World" section of his two part album. The other section, "A Different World" was all about the pink and white and gold and blue people....
Again note the ubiquitous turtleneck! LOL!




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2008 11:12PM by Vera City.

just-googling:

Please stay focused on the topic of this thead, which is Chris Butler, not his critics in Australia.

Personal attacks is the reason "SoI Kills" was banned from this message board and they also apply to everyone still posting here.

Thanks, Z, for your knowledge on this important issue ... This certainly proves that it was more like a cult than a genuine religion, huh?

Yes, I must admit that it does.

Thanks z - That is the rumor that all of the Jagad Guru Chris Butler followers were told and believed. The effect was to bond a person more to guru and the group. Those that travelled with CB to ISKCON enclaves witnessed hostility first hand, so the threats were believable, however even if it was true, it does not exonerate CB from any of his behaviors as a cult leader in his own right. And not all ISKCON dudes considered CB an enemy.

Zeuszor – Can you ask the old timers if they remember ACB’s WWIII lecture? Or any other doomsday predictions? That also became the fabric of CB’s cult.

I just asked PJ about that and here's what he said. PJ told me that he was once on a morning walk with Prabhupada, along a beach in Los Angeles in '73/'74, and somebody asked Prabhupada about the prospect of a WW3. Prabhupada said something like that it will begin with India and Pakistan, and that many people will die but that it will be very good for preaching, etc. etc. PJ tells me that that particular morning walk was not recorded, and also that he also recalls Prabhupada saying on that same morning walk that Churchill was just as big a demon as Hitler because of England's exploitation of India. PJ tells me that the tape ministry people in the BBT also regularly edited and even sometimes censored the tapes of the morning walk conversations if the material recorded therein was deemed to sensitive or confidential for public presentation. If something that might have been said on a morning walk were too "far out" to release publicly, then the BBT might not have even transcribed it in the first place. Also I find this, recorded in '75.

[guruoftheworld.blogspot.com]

This guy sums it up better than I could, so I'll simply cut and paste his synopsis:

From the conversation, we can see that Prabhupada predicted an imminent world war between the United States and the Soviet Union and that this war, emerging from a conflict between India and Pakistan, would destroy the "demonic civilization" (which basically means people who are not following the infallible teachings of Prabhupada). Prabhupada welcomed such a war as being good for the Krishna Consciousness Movement ("Preaching will be very nice after the war when both of them, especially Russia, will be finished."). Even though it is the demonic civilization that needs help, the demons are so sinful that we can begin helping them only after a world war has destroyed them. Yes, even though such a war would surely see millions of deaths, it is still very nice for preaching.

No, I've never seen this material before, myself. My goodness.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2008 02:49AM by zeuszor.