Quotesman said:

"Hey Googling, are you still around?"


Yeh, I'm still around! I've been quite busy, though, errrr, just googling and just surfin', so to speak... !)

thanks, Quotesman, for the Mahabarat story about Arjuna and the attitude towards the "third gender" that the true Vaisnavas hold... and which is quite contrary to what Sid is propagating. I think you have hit the nail on the head...

I wonder if Sid and "the Babbards" are still spouting their neo-con war-mongering politics? ...

:)

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Dassi

Chris’s teachings are supposed to be a panacea for all the ills in the world; divorce, drug use, promiscuity, crime, misery. If divorces are still going on in the group at the same rate as the general population, it just shows you that the teachings are not valid or the chanting and serving is not working.

EXACTLY, EXACTLY EXACTLY!

This has been my line of thought for many decades now, and it is definitely worth stating again in this thread, as it is a very important point.

I think I did mention in an old posting that one cult researcher had estimated the divorce rate among the ISKON organization at over 90%... and of course it is debatable on what the true divorce rate is among Butler's followers, but from what I have seen, it seems that it might be well over 50 per cent...

:)

That is the problem with politics.. a real politician will go with the tide. Now that the war is becoming so unpopular Krishna Katha das might change his attitude externally and do a different dance in order to keep his popularity. It has nothing to do with the truth.

Krishna Katha das was never really homophobic or a war monger until FL taught him to be and at heart I think he probably hates the role he is playing just as much as Katyayani hated the politics. But somehow he lets FL control him. That is really a waste in my opinion. He could be so much more. Now when I see his face it reminds me of someone wearing a mask. The whole political personification FL created for him is just so gooey and phony and against the person I once knew. How could he live with it? I think Krishna das just got sick of all of it and that is why he stepped out of the politics.

I have been very busy also and my time here will most likely be brief and with big intervals. Nice touching base with you though.

Thanks Dassi for explaining about cognitive dissonance. I used to be a member of this group. What I may add when dealing with cult members in general is the difficulty to bring the discourse to the rational level. Firstly, people of faith have technically rejected rational thinking when they embraced a dogma, and any attempt to merge the two together is simply a big waste of time. I think when discoursing with people of faith it helps to clarify this ground first because beyond rationality is a free-for-all. People of faith when confronted with facts will for convenience always seek and hide beneath the guru's dhoti whom they embraced to be infallible, and where no amount of critical and rational thinking can penetrate. Thus, healthy discourse is almost impossible. But I applaud Krsnacon for coming forward. It takes courage to take on a stand that is unpopular to most posters here. I just wish that he or she is aware that a healthy discourse is only possible when based on open-mindedness, reason and rationality.

Secondly, the fear factor that gurus injected into the beings of followers beheld them to the dogma that any disagreeing thought gets automatically rejected, the brain or any amount of critical thinking left just systematically shut down. That's how guilt-complex works and all dogmas have this as their main tool to put psychological hold on believers.

Third and lastly, I second Dassi's description that SoI is a very sensual cult. Right or wrong people who are impressionable or a little immature will tend to choose to belong there. The idealism, the culture and even the people add up to its attraction. It's very hard to outgrow this sense of belonging which is human nature. We feel stronger and more secured when we belong. Strength in number is natural even among animals. There really is nothing wrong with that, but when dogma is added in, it becomes divisive and more intolerant of others. It also paves way to elitism, exploitation and corruption of the minds. When social classes or positions are deemed divine, no matter how much ideals they carry, in practice human tendencies most of the times win over ethical duties. The external aspect of the dogma tends to make it look attractive but it is as corrupt and as false internally as other belief systems.

I do believe that that some members are fully aware that their following another dangerous cult and simply choose to be on constant denial. But when you are a subject or worse become a tool in spreading lies and cause much pain and harm to families or those who otherwise disagree; when families are broken apart, when children are divested of their education and future in society where they are supposed to belong, you are equally accountable of your own actions and as guilty as the guru and the elite members of the group who conspire to propagate a sham and harmful tactics for their own selfish ends.

The facts, opinions and rationales based on experiences and first-hand accounts have been discussed here over and over again and could not get anymore clearer than what were already discussed. Not one, not a single elite member of the group has emerged and successfully deliberated or offered any helpful insights at all to justify the claims of their dogma. They failed to defend their guru they have sworn to love until the end, again and again. The dogma is simply all lies and the guru as you describe it has feet of clay, from any possible angle one can look at it; yet the show goes on. Just what sustains these people if the dogma is already laid bared to be not what it is being presented and just wouldn't stand a chance against public scrutiny and logical opinions?

I strongly suggest just as the members stubbornly ignore the facts and opinions here to just continue discussing the subject for the record and for the impressionable public to have something to refer to. Once in a while, members like kriskcon would emerge to stir up some discourse but disregarding the ground where a healthy exchange is possible. Personally it is a big waste of time to wake up people who are pretending to sleep. The amount of facts and opinions in this forum are enough to put the onus on the members, beyond that no one, not even God could do anything to change their minds. As we are guaranteed free will, so is our choices are ultimately our own responsibility alone. If one rejects rational thinking, what the hell we are given our minds for? We decide and make up what truth is; gurus will be around as long as we are around and they will offer all sorts of lies and dogmas for people to believe in. It's their business. In the end it is up to the individuals to accept these and embrace as truths. Unfortunately majority abandon their god-given faculties in exchange for the gurus' dogmas. If God exists he can't possibly belonged to any of these many truths all gurus claim to have come from. They don't agree with one another; use your common sense.

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dharmabum
The amount of facts and opinions in this forum are enough to put the onus on the members, beyond that no one, not even God could do anything to change their minds. As we are guaranteed free will, so is our choices are ultimately our own responsibility alone. If one rejects rational thinking, what the hell we are given our minds for? We decide and make up what truth is; gurus will be around as long as we are around and they will offer all sorts of lies and dogmas for people to believe in. It's their business. In the end it is up to the individuals to accept these and embrace as truths. Unfortunately majority abandon their god-given faculties in exchange for the gurus' dogmas.

Hi Dharmabum!

I agree with your statement above.

I was one of those people who chucked my own critical thinking skills
all the while thinking I was thinking things through!
It's not like I said one day, "Oh, today I will abandon my mind."
Something got me in and something got me out.
That something that woke us up is what is important on this forum.
You can never tell who will take the bait to get in a cult
or who will just "get it" and leave the cult.
The other thing that is important to relate
is that our lives did not degenerate into yama duta land when we left.

Would you ever go back?!
Do you regret leaving?
What woke you up?

In my case I hit my head accidentally on one of those hanging beams in the chanting hall in Maui. Just kidding. No way I'll ever go back bowing down before that fraud again. It's one of the biggest regrets in my life. Muhammad Ali said, "he who in his fifties, still sees the world the same as when he was in his twenties, wasted thirty years of his life." I was paraphrasing.

We grow up and we outgrow things of our youths, we move forward, and it's natural and everything is supposedly for the good. Although I must admit, there was a stark charm about the movement during the 70s, it's almost magical to be there. I didn't care much about the teaching; the chanting was good enough for me. It's when the movement started to get too organized and became more ambitious about its goals, meddling in politics and was becoming more middle class like in their lifestyles, pursuing businesses, social status and started behaving like the upscale society we originally shunned away from, it got cornier and cornier. Sri Guru Cerana Padma sang in group ala We are the World? Come on. It seemed like we were making things up as we went along. The board of directors didn't seem to know what they were doing up inside the penthouse. "Have you finished your Science of Identity course?" What is that? There were so many new things happening and going on - inbreeding, infighting, gossips, backstabbing, pushing and shoving, germ phobia, homophobia, hypocrisy galore. The guru itself was reckless in his display of his own excesses - private jets, parading his new wife, waterfront villa. And the bizarre - left-over treats, foot wash tonic drinks and toe nails delights, Yuck! When people failed to see the obvious, I started feeling good I got out. That meant the movement has indeed become cult-like. It's like the guru was saying "I can kick my dog over and over again and it won't bite." I would.

Hey, I'm a functioning member of my society, I'm free, and things are more consistent and crystal clear. I don't need to struggle with my doubts and kept on insulting my intelligence for some airy-fairy, fleeting moments of happiness and illusion of being pure and nearer to God. The outside world is not that complicated and scary at all, in fact it's far more beautiful, moral and more awesome in its magnitude than what the dogma could offer.

George Bush quotes, "when in Rome, do as the Romanians do". We deserve our leaders. Sad.

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dharmabum
In my case I hit my head accidentally on one of those hanging beams in the chanting hall in Maui.

This made me laugh out loud!

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dharmabum
It's one of the biggest regrets in my life. Muhammad Ali said, "he who in his fifties, still sees the world the same as when he was in his twenties, wasted thirty years of his life." I was paraphrasing.

Great paraphrase.
A lot of people feel like this.... that we wasted a lot of our years.
But I'm not dead yet and the sky is still up and blue so I'm happy.
I've had more years away now and happy to have had them!

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dharmabum
Although I must admit, there was a stark charm about the movement ..... It's when the movement started to get too organized and became more ambitious about its goals, meddling in politics and was becoming more middle class like in their lifestyles, pursuing businesses, social status and started behaving like the upscale society we originally shunned away from, it got cornier and cornier.

More like it all got phonier and phonier!

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dharmabum
Sri Guru Cerana Padma sang in group ala We are the World? Come on. It seemed like we were making things up as we went along. The board of directors didn't seem to know what they were doing up inside the penthouse. "Have you finished your Science of Identity course?" What is that? There were so many new things happening and going on - inbreeding, infighting, gossips, backstabbing, pushing and shoving, germ phobia, homophobia, hypocrisy galore. The guru itself was reckless in his display of his own excesses - private jets, parading his new wife, waterfront villa. And the bizarre - left-over treats, foot wash tonic drinks and toe nails delights, Yuck! When people failed to see the obvious, I started feeling good I got out. That meant the movement has indeed become cult-like. It's like the guru was saying "I can kick my dog over and over again and it won't bite." I would.

I am sure I got out before you did. Who is SG Cerana Padma? I was around when people were trying SO hard to act like adults and pros but fell very short. They could never survive in the real world. But old Chris picked up some talent and he had a head for business.
I left before the jets and foot drinks. Did you witness this?

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dharmabum
Hey, I'm a functioning member of my society, I'm free, and things are more consistent and crystal clear. I don't need to struggle with my doubts and kept on insulting my intelligence for some airy-fairy, fleeting moments of happiness and illusion of being pure and nearer to God. The outside world is not that complicated and scary at all, in fact it's far more beautiful, moral and more awesome in its magnitude than what the dogma could offer.[/[/b]quote]

Glad you got out.
This statement is well put. Thanks for posting here.

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dharmabum
George Bush quotes, "when in Rome, do as the Romanians do". We deserve our leaders. Sad.

Another laugh out loud moment....

Dassi, I left in early 80s. I also misspelt the word sang. It should be sung. Sri Guru is one of my favourite sanskrit chant songs. I heard of Prahlad and company recording same chant song in a sing-along fashion ala We Are the World with respective solos. It wasn't that bad really, it just shows how we have become phonier and phonier (you're right); or maybe I'm just too sentimental for the less structured good old days - the no-frills chanting days. I witnessed the maha foot wash. Some drank; some just wet their hair with it. It was passed to me, I did not inhale. The left-over’s; yes, that's true. I never witnessed the toe nails though, but heard a lot about it. It was common knowledge.

I intended to post here, months ago but it was nasty then, it turned me off. I just hope that's over. I also don't agree assassinating the characters of key people there. That's a bit over the line. Before I get fired upon, let me say, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Peace.

I was a fringe member, an observant fringe member. I helped in a limited way. I can't be an authority on this group. You can't get as much insights from me as much as you can get from Z, Googly, or even Dassi. I also enjoy reading other accounts too. I guess overall you're all doing the public great service in giving more and more info about this cult. If you can keep the rhetoric to the minimum and stick to the essentials, that would be more helpful and may encourage others like me to come out in the open. Make it more insightful, intelligent and even light-hearted, cults can't stand up to factual and profound arguments.

I'm anti-hate first before I'm an anti-cult; and I'm anti-cult first before I'm anti-Butlers. These leaders are misguided themselves, in my opinion. If leaders like Chris could move forward with their people into becoming active participants in the fight against materialism, environmental destruction and intolerance, it's not too late. This dogma about absolute truth and infallibility doesn't really mean anything; it sounds mind-blowing among immature and impressionable people but just doesn't make sense to people who think right. Encourage dialogue, creativity and openness. It's not too late. The world has changed since the 70s; people are a lot cleverer now compared. We have the inernet. There are hardly anymore mysteries left that cannot be unravelled. Even the flowery words of vedas are no match to the knowledge we now have regarding the Universe, archeolgy and physics. It's a vast, vast space out there. To claim you are the teacher of this vast, vast universe is only reserved for lunatics and those who are uninformed.

Just look at how cute the Dalai Lama has become, I mean lovable. Although he still sustains the tradition of his people, he insists that he's just a mortal just like you and me. He promotes religious tolerance, upholds science without compromising his religious tradition. He separates myths from the facts. It is still possible; you can still become legitimate in this very, very progressive world, at the same time promoting a tradition. Just don't take it so literally. And for crying out loud, do not impede your children's education; you're just like sentencing them to death. There's no way religious dogma can collide with science. It's like a bunch of kindergartens criticizing the PhDs of physics. Not only it is laughable, it promotes ignorance, intolerance, deceit and harm among the followers.

More jokes:

When asked if Obama is too green to be president, George Bush replies: "He looks more brown to me."

When asked if disciples are allowed to surf (online); Siddha replies: "It depends on the waves; we don't want to lose members to those nasty waves. If they don't go too far from the shore, I guess to surf is just fine with me.

I guess this site is definitely too far from the shore. Did CB actually say that? When? Last I heard, the interwebs was strictly verboten. Better to stick a fork in your eye than roast in the hell of the net.

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When asked if disciples are allowed to surf (online); Siddha replies: "It depends on the waves; we don't want to lose members to those nasty waves. If they don't go too far from the shore, I guess to surf is just fine with me.

It just begs more bad analogies.

Yup, the most likely scenario is that surfing is strictly forbidden -

surfing on the internet because one might hear a different opinion...

surfing in the ocean because it puts one in the mood of enjoyment ... and as we all know, enjoyment is the biggest evil around... (of course guru is allowed to surf all day long because he is God's most intimate friend ... makes sense, huh?)

Glad to see some homor in this thread again, Dharmabum... the joke about the Romanians cracked me up!

Unfortunately, my sense of humor seems to be in the doldrums these days... I'm still trying to re-write the words to Bob Dylan's "Ain't gonna work on Maggie's Farm no more" ... something like "I ain't gonna work on Siddha's farm no more" ... "He stubs his cigar out in your face just for kicks... his bedroom window is made out of bricks... he fines you every time you slam the door... " Sounds just about right, doesn't it... except the cigar is metaphorical, of course!

:)