Does any one have any evidence of members having more than 1 wife and having children with both wifes ?

Excellent points Hoax. One I had not thought of in relation to Lord Jesus Christ. That is the perfect example. Thank you. And we can also see the same type of submission from every other acharya in the line. ACBS did not begin his role as guru until well into old age. Same with Narayana Maharaja and all the senior disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta. We were taught by FL all the Godbrothers of ACBS were envious. The truth is before ACBS came to the west it was his Godbrothers who bestowed the title Bhaktivedanta on ACBS. Prior to that he had another name. His Godbrothers knowing his capacity for writing wanted to honor him. And ACBS DID cooperate with the mission of his guru. He DID accept others as his shiksa gurus. The fact is Bhaktisiddhanta had many sincere followers who preached far and wide, all considered first class devotees, whose missions still exist with bona-fide acharyas as heads. There was some quarrels between ACBS and his Godbrothers, that history is there, but that is natural, brothers will quarrel. But before ACBS left the planet HE APOLOGIZED to his Godbrothers first. This is the humility of a real Vaishnava, they will be the first to come forward and apologize, sometimes even they are not wrong, just for harmony they will apologize. By the time ACBS apologized most of his godbrothers realized what ACBS had done, and that they had not recognized his contribution to the mission of Mahaprabhu, and they all agreed it was THEM who should apologize to ACBS. There was a very happy ending between ACBS and most of his Godbrothers with many tears shed.

There are so many things FL got wrong it is mind boggling.

We were all told the story of Gaura Kisora das Babaji and Bhaktisiddhanta and how the Babaji kept rejecting Bhaktisiddhanta. But FL got that story completely backwards. The Babaji rejected Bhaktisiddhanta because he felt Bhaktisiddhanta was such an intelligent pundit he himself WAS NOT qualified to be his guru. Even after finally accepting Bhaktisiddhanta Gaura Kisora das Babaji Maharaja always referred to his only disciple as MY PRABHU, my master.

And I have seen from many different gurus the same mentality. Always praising their disciples for bringing the truth out of them. Always saying it is by their humble submission and sincere inquiry that they are able to say something about Krishna. It is only by their sincerity to know something about Krishna that Krishna has empowered them to speak. Therefore they are always thanking their disciples. Most people were afraid to ask the FL a question for fear of being humiliated. That is just so backwards it screams out loud.

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veggiechipssuck
Does any one have any evidence of members having more than 1 wife and having children with both wifes ?

Yes but I will not name the persons. In every case of having more than one wife it never worked out. I have known just two who had more than one wife, in both cases it did not work and eventually one of the wives went away.

When asked the question is it ok for devotees to have more than on wife ACBS replied, 'Yes as long as you can supply a castle for each wife." This obviously was his way of saying, unless you are Krishna it is not a good idea.

Having more than one wife in this age is not forbidden in the Vaishnava sastra (scripture). BUT IT IS DISCOURAGED. In this age most men will not be able to live with more than one wife. Many have a hard time with just one. In prior times sex life was just for procreation and the wives lived together in harmony like sisters. It may be noted also that Draupadi had 5 husbands. I threw that in for those who think Vaishnavism is a sexist religion.

And before i get an onslaught of protest I will concede now that YES vaishnavism is for the most part a male dominated path. BUT there have been women gurus in our line. THere have been times when the men appointed a women as head based on the ladies qualifications, not sex.

Wow! I had heard the opposite story of Gaura Kisora das Babaji as well and believed it. After all, I had no reason to disbelieve it. Oh what a tangled web.......

We are again brought back to the lack of humility exhibited by FL. How can anyone be a Spiritual Master and lack this quality???

Can anyone reading this forum kindly provide us with an example of the humility of the one who calls himself Jagad Guru?

Here is the classic FL teaching regarding accepting a person as guru:

1. What he teaches is non-different from scripture.

- this thread has numerous examples of where FL has got it wrong

2. He comes in disciplic succession

- this thread has observed that this point is up for debate since the evidence shows that FL never served his guru

3. Check it with the Lord in the Heart

- FL has failed this test with many but I can only speak for myself and no, I don't feel that he is God's representative

I'm NOT defending or apologizing for ACB here, just making an observation. ACB was elderly, in poor health, and in poverty when he came to America in order to carry out the instructions of his guru to bring Krishna to the West. Where do we see FL emulating his guru by humbling himself and making sacrifices and doing everything he can to be pleasing to his guru. After all, FL seems to know (because I heard him preach about it) that the guru/disciple relationship is an eternal one.

We don't see this because FL never followed the instructions of his guru. He just went off on his own and established his own form of Krishna Consciousness which he justified in his mind was following ACB because, after all, he was giving the people Krishna and he was an exalted pure devotee anyway so why would he have to....and so on....and so on...and what a tangled web we weave.....

By the way, we know that this forum is being read by devotees of FL.

I keep asking for feedback from them. Challenge what we are saying here. Defend your guru. Enlighten us.

The majority of the posting here of late, thanks mainly to Quotesman, has been very factual and supported by evidence contained in revealing letters.

There is not a lot of flaming or spreading of lies and gossip. Nor is there any conspiracy in the works. For the most part it is an intelligent and insightful analysis of Siddha and his mission.

So why not join the discussion and defend your guru? Show us where we have been misinformed. Would not this be considered service to guru and Krishna?

Either you cannot because:

- you have been instructed not to by guru and are afraid of repercussions

- you lack the ability or have no information to challenge what is being said here

- you just write us off as demons (program-speak)

- you're too busy slaving away in the guru machine to make money for FL to help him in his mission (which is supposed to be to lead souls to Krishna, is that what he is doing???)

It's easy to be anonymous here. We're waiting to hear from you.

Does anyone think that we will get some response?

It is possible a stray devotee might appear. But it would have to be one not following FL very closely. There have been some on the internet, those who really know little about what goes on in the cult who sometimes try to defend FL. But lately since so much information about the cult has appeared on the internet those people seem to be mostly silent now. One tactic would be an onslaught headed by FL. Like one of his political campaigns or like his assault on Xena and Madonna, with the FL in the back pulling all the strings. But that is not likely because they would say things that would force a censor by the moderator. I doubt they could give a clear argument without including fanaticism. Also they would not be able to refute things said by the follower of Narayana Maharaja and others. They have no real argument. All they could give would be dogma created by FL. They may be able to twist some of the Vedic scripture to stress their points. Perhaps a few half truths. But I am pretty sure others including myself would be able to refute their word jugglery easily.

The only ones who are reading this stuff would be perhaps one or two devotees assigned to keep on top of what is being said and those who already have doubts and are therefore not really following the FL's royal decrees and dictatorship.

Hoax, it is nice you are getting so many things. One thing that disturbs me greatly is the many people who went in FL cult and then left thinking they know all about Gaudiya Vaishnavism due to their time in the cult. In fact for one who continues on the path will see a new world open up and will see what FL has only very very vaguely resembles the original thing. It really saddens me that many really believe that whatever FL was the best the path has to offer. In fact it is just the opposite.

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hoax108
Quotesman - My sentiments exactly. My guess is that NM dismissed these letters as simply as one brushes a fly off one's sleeve. An advanced devotee would not be bothered by such mundane behaviour.

He probably had his disciple respond due to the volume of emails received and in an attempt to offer them instruction.

Again, we beg anyone to please enlighten us as to what training FL has had in the Vaishnava religion? Further, FL compares himself to Christ.

We could speculate on what happened. Do you hear that FL or his followers???… it is OK to speculate on such things!!! Yes I am using my mind and intelligence, making a logical assumption here. If it is wrong you are free to come on and counter it. … It is possible the letters never even made it to Narayana Maharaja. They were all quite sufficiently countered by his follower. It could be they did not want to bother him with such pettiness.

On the other hand there is no doubt what so ever, (as far as I am concerned) all the letters from FL’s side were no doubt written under the coaching of the FL. But that is just a speculation and I really do not know all the details of what took place. At any rate it is obvious to me who came out smelling like a rose or paramahamsa and who came out smelling like a (fill in the blank) or (fill in the blank).

Hello everyone!
I've been reading this thread for about a week now and honestly I'm shocked about the revelations and whats coming out directly from former disciples of "FL".
I myself thought that he is the representative of God .I even heard that his life is an "open book" but there's so many things that are kept secret which contradicts the sastras and past saints and sages. The toenail prasadam blew my mind away!I never heard anything about it from the scriptures nor from the previous acaryas.Even his humble abode in Malibu and Hawaii,I thought he's just staying in a rented house or something.
So now for saying these things I guess my spiritual life is doomed forever but I'm not criticizing him,he himself told us that we should see if the person is a pure devotee or not and now he's contradicting himself.

I'm kinda speechless. There are so many things to be drawn from those letters, where even to start? One thing I need to know, however. Those letters...how did they end up in the public domain? They were obviously intended to be private communications.

It seems to me that this thing has gone so far that FL will need to do one of two things. Either go public with his devotees and denounce this whole thing entirely. He can blame it on Maya, the Kali Yuga, whatever, breathe fire and scare everyone with the 'spiritual suicide' thing.. or he sincerely address the issues that have been brought up. I do hope that he can see how damaging these behaviours have been to the Vaishnavas worldwide, and I hope he can see how he has been pushing people away from God, rather than bringing them closer. He has accused ISKCON of forever damaging the name of Krishna in the Western World, but he has done far worse. Even with my small amount of spiritual vision, I can see that there are too many inconsistencies, contradictions and downright bad stuff, for FL to be who he says he is.

So, either he had better come up with a damn good explanation to try to heal this, or I do believe they are finished. Something with no spiritual foundation cannot survive. For me...I just dont know. :?

Stoke108 - Thanks for your post. Thank you for having the courage to come forward and admit that by reading this forum you now have doubts.

Let me be the first to tell you this - your spiritual life is NOT doomed. That is another of FLs fabrications to keep his devotees in line and submissive and working for him.

Also, there is nothing wrong with having thought, or perhaps still thinking, that FL is God's representative. You have free will, a gift from God. People have the right to ask questions and seek the truth. As such, this forum has evolved into a fairly rational and honest discussion and revelation regarding who FL is in an attempt to distinguish between what is bona fide and what is a cult.

Of late the majority of posts have presented a clear picture of how a bona fide guru conducts himself, with special attention being paid to Vaishnava acharyas. The information has been validated by both letters and facts and scriptural references.

Unfortunately, FL does NOT appear to be a bona fide acharya. This theory is not being put forward via mental speculation or word jugglery, but by an intelligent analysis of FL's behaviour and actions and comparing those to relevant examples in scripture and by the examples set by other Spiritual Masters.

So perhaps this is the actual beginning of your spiritual life. You can do what I did and take what you learned, take the positive from it and move on, if you wish. Reading and posting in this forum has helped me tremendously in this regard. It allows me to think about issues regarding the spirit and then write about them. I now have real HOPE that I can become more loving, giving, peaceful and joyful. Thank you God.

Remember, your spiritual life is between you and God, who loves you and forgives you no matter what. FL simply cannot doom your spiritual life because he cannot intercede in this relationship. The role of the guru is to lead one to God, through nurturing the disciples' spirit and offering instruction based on the perfect example that he sets. The guru does not interfere in this relationship and damn one to hell because they choose to follow another path. The bona fide acharya is the well-wisher of all.

I am sure that Quotesman can provide a more eloquent explanation of this than I so stay tuned. I also feel that Quotesman's spiritual life certainly did NOT end when he decided to leave the service of FL.

Here is some food for thought from "The Imitation of Christ" which, by the way, is the second most read book by Christians, next to the bible:

[i:0a0f68e5d5]"The man who dwells in perfect peace suspects evil of noone. The man who is discontented and disgruntled has a heart filled with suspicion; he himself has no rest nor does he allow others to possess it."[/i:0a0f68e5d5]

Does this not describe FL?? A bona fide guru is the epitome of peace. Christ said (and I paraphrase because I don't have a bible with me at the moment), "Come rest with me for my yoke is easy and my burden light."

Stoke108 - we are NOT here to judge you. Feel free to ask questions. Posting here could be the best thing you've ever done.