and good for Katyayani for not going back with her tail between her legs!!!

But I think she also needs some help from outside, I think she could use a trip to Vrndavana and the assocaition of sadhus.. just my opinion of course.

I remember FL when he was lambasting Katyayani for having disciples, say people would go to her just because she is so mellow compared to himself. I remember thinking, ‘yea that’s right why would a person want an uptight guru when they could get the same thing from a mellow one.” :lol: :lol:

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hoax108
I remember listening to a lecture in which FL was talking about when ACB was approving various disciples as acharyas. Apparently Tusta received an "official" letter from ACB saying that he could accept disciples. FL was joking about this in his inimitable way, saying something like, "...well, at least he got a [i:31cb3f077d]letter[/i:31cb3f077d]". Apparently FL never received such a letter.

So I guess FL just got a verbal okay from ACB or whatever. I'd often wondered about this and it for some reason I got some bad vibes from that lecture.

I never met Tusta but everyone really admired his unwavering devotion to FL. From what I can tell he was a great devotee. I heard he never took his own disciples because he did not want to deflect any attention away from FL, whom he saw as a great soul.

Los Angeles
15 September, 1972
72-09-15
Buffalo
My dear Sudevi Dasi,
Please accept my blessings. I am in receipt of your letter dated September 8, 1972, and have noted the contents therein. Marriage between husband and wife means that the husband must forever be responsible for the wife's well-being and protection in all cases. That does not mean that now there is agreement between us, therefore I am responsible, but as soon as there is some disagreement then I immediately flee the scene and become so-called renounced. Whether your husband likes to take responsibility as your spiritual guide or not, that does not matter. He must do it. It is his duty because he has taken you as his wife. Therefore he must take full responsibility for you the rest of his life. And you also must agree to serve him under all circumstances and assist him in every way so that he may make advancement in Krsna Consciousness. By his making advancement in Krsna Consciousness, automatically the wife will make advancement in the husband's footsteps. But if you do not assist him and be very obedient to his welfare, then he may become disgusted and go away. So there must be mutual responsibility by both parties, and now that you are married couple there is no question of your separation, but you must both strive very hard to serve Krsna together in harmony. What are these nonsense emotions that cause you to go this way and that way, the real thing is your duty. Now you are married couple, you know what your duty is, so best thing is to perform your duty and always think of Krsna. Never mind some temporary inconveniences, we must remain steady in our duty to Krsna.

[b:31cb3f077d]Regarding Siddhasvarupananda, these things which you have heard are simply rumor and there is no substance. Siddhasvarupa does not want to take disciples, neither he should have disciples while I am alive. That is the process. I have never said that Siddhasvarupa is a pure devotee.* That is simply concoction. Now I am going to India in few weeks and I shall stop at Hawaii and take Siddhasvarupananda to India for training him up properly.[/b:31cb3f077d]


Hoping this meets you in good health,
Your ever well-wisher,
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami


But FL did not agree to go to India with his guru... FL claims that ACB was happy about it. In fact ACB said, "what kind of a disciple does not want to go to India with thier guru?". He was very unhappy about it.

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hoax108
Apparently Tusta received an "official" letter from ACB saying that he could accept disciples.

I am sorry but that is not true.Neither Tusta or FL were approved as gurus by ACB.

He did tell one person they could follow FL as long as FL maintained the proper conduct i.e. the sannyasa ashram. But FL never did, even while ACB was living. He could not even carry his danda. It was too much of a problem for him.

I'm not sure why we are calling Chris Butler AKA "Jagad Guru Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa," "FL" or "Fearless Leader."

Isn't he afraid of lots of things? Germs, gays, the GBC, to start with.

We know he is keeping a low profile and makes no public appearances. He has no new books out. A few years ago he was actually removing his stuff from the internet.

He is probably afraid of calling attention to himself. There's probably a lot of abuse of power, monkey business, shenanigans, hanky panky, scams and cons going on within the Science of Identity Foundation and all of his other enterprises.

He is probably afraid of being exposed. "Spiritual Representative of God?" I think not.

With his possible political activity, he might lose his IRS tax-exemption (501 (c) (3)) like the Christian Coalition did a few years ago.

Rather than being fearless, I think he has a lot to be afraid of.

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atheist
I'm not sure why we are calling Chris Butler AKA "Jagad Guru Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa," "FL" or "Fearless Leader."

Isn't he afraid of lots of things? Germs, gays, the GBC, to start with.

We know he is keeping a low profile and makes no public appearances. He has no new books out. A few years ago he was actually removing his stuff from the internet.

He is probably afraid of calling attention to himself. There's probably a lot of abuse of power, monkey business, shenanigans, hanky panky, scams and cons going on within the Science of Identity Foundation and all of his other enterprises.

He is probably afraid of being exposed. "Spiritual Representative of God?" I think not.

With his possible political activity, he might lose his IRS tax-exemption (501 (c) (3)) like the Christian Coalition did a few years ago.

Rather than being fearless, I think he has a lot to be afraid of.

Yes I was using the term sarcastically. In fact Fearless Leader is full of fear. He is afraid of germs, bugs, unclean things, doorknobs, demons, etc. etc. You name it, he is afraid of it. He was even afraid of a little fire breathing woman. I wonder what she got in return for giving up her fight.

Fascinating posts regarding FLs relationship. or lack thereof, with ACB.

I remember hearing that he did not take any disciples until after ACB left his body because that was the proper thing to do and, after all, he was so proper. This example was used to try to enhance his divinity.

I also recall hearing lectures in which he criticized devotees for wanting to go to India on a pilgrimage. The line was something like," you've got your guru, just focus on serving me, what do you need to go to India for?" Maybe he was afraid that they would discover true Vaishnavas.

Also remember lectures in which he said that the relationship between the spiritual master is transcendental and eternal. Therefore, you do not ever really need to be physically in the presence of your guru. Then I hear that you should surrender to him because he is here on the planet now and someone like Christ is not so how can you be a disciple of Christ? Isn't this contradictory. I always thought so.

In a sense I feel relieved and pleased to learn that there are bona fide Vaishnavas on the planet. I always had a feeling that there were and I would one day love to travel to India to visit various holy places.

That's one of many positive things I take from my experience with SIF: an appreciation for and attraction to Indian culture and religion. Also note that I choose to take positive things out of my experience with this cult. This attitude has been very helpful in helping me get on with my life.

Hey quotester!
So you are a breast man, eh :wink: Just kidding...
Very interesting stuff on the history of the Sari.

In the directors commentary on her movie "Water", she stated that the widows in the ashram did not wear cholis and one lady who played a very elderly widow was very uncomfortable with her costume (a white sari with no choli or bra).

I find your defense of the Vaishnava religion and liberal take on things compelling and different. I'd like to know how widows are treated in your group. Are young women forced to marry or if a young woman is widowed, is she allowed to remarry or is she forced to join an ashram if the family can't afford to take her back? I know these practices are not widespread in India, but they do still happen. What is your mission's take on women and women's rights?

I love Deepa Mehta's movies - especially "Water" and "Earth".

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Dassi
Hey quotester!
So you are a breast man, eh :wink: Just kidding...
Very interesting stuff on the history of the Sari.

In the directors commentary on her movie "Water", she stated that the widows in the ashram did not wear cholis and one lady who played a very elderly widow was very uncomfortable with her costume (a white sari with no choli or bra).

I find your defense of the Vaishnava religion and liberal take on things compelling and different. I'd like to know how widows are treated in your group. Are young women forced to marry or if a young woman is widowed, is she allowed to remarry or is she forced to join an ashram if the family can't afford to take her back? I know these practices are not widespread in India, but they do still happen. What is your mission's take on women and women's rights?

Women do take a more traditional role in our group. The abuses in Hinduism that are taking place are not traditional Vedic ways. They are gross perversions.

Of course there are different social behaviors that differentiate western and eastern Vaishnavas. No western Vaishnava women that I know of are forced to marry anyone against their will. They are free to remarry as they like. No young women are forced to marry against their will. In fact I know plenty of Vaishnavas whose kids are NOT vaishnavas but are not rejected by their Vaishnava parents. I even knew one Vaishnava guru whose oldest son was into total material life. The guru always did whatever he could to help him. On occasion that meant him coming and living in the ashram to get on his feet again.

In India arranged marriages are still the go. You would have to go to India to see how that works. From my limited experience with it, it works pretty good for Indians. But of course we do not try to imitate that coming from the west.

We encourage family members to take care of widows, orphans etc and deplore the neglect of family members. In more traditional Hindu families the relations are very close and the family unit is very strong. In fact much stronger than most families in the west.

One famous Indian guru said, 'It is the gurus duty to help keep the family together, not tear it apart."

I personally took care of my mother before she died, even though she is a staunch Christian. I also cared for my father his last year, he was agnostic.

In a healthy Vaishnava family (this applies to most Hindus) it is the duty of the eldest son to take care of the mother, should the father die. If there is no son then the husbands brother is responsible. There is a system of how women are to be cared for including widows. Turning them onto the street is not part of it. The people who do that are not following Dharmic or Vedic laws. They are actually considered adharmic (against Vedic ways).

I do not deny there is abuse of the system. But that really has little to do with real Vaishnavism or Hinduism. This is what happens in Kali Yuga.