Hey hoaxster :D
It was Voltaire.
“I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." ~Voltaire

That said,
a few words about MUSIC.

I remember those awful kirtans at THE WAREHOUSE
When everyone was so uptight about FL showing up
Are the fans set up? Are the kids out of the way? Don’t want any freaking babies crying!
Are there enough garlands to bury his face?
Is his food in the fridge? (All 35 courses)…
Is the vyas asana set up right?
Are there enough face masks to go around? Get rid of all the sickies…. Backbiting…nastiness…On and on…AWFUL!
By that time (early 80’s) the music and chanting was rugged and negative – intense –
The loudness and gruffness trying to make up for a lack or real spiritual feeling.
I know a lot of people bailed and put on their own kirtans
Trying to recapture spiritual experiences.

IMO there is nothing impure or wrong about “enjoying” music or being inspired by it!
I’ve had many a non-cult spiritual experiences thru music.
Music expresses the soul.
If a soul is sick, it’s sick music.
No matter if it’s sincere and seeking or pure and “advanced”
It’s all reflected.
It can heal a broken heart
Open a closed heart
Cure depression
Sooth the savage beast
Or inspire one to get more connected
To what is real and true.
Or experience God.

I used to like the unplugged kirtans
(As a woman- 10 times more enjoyment.
It pays to be “10 times more lusty” -- HA HA!) :lol:
And some of the devotee recordings too
Devavani YOU were GREAT!
Loved the la, la, la!
Even the first ISKCON album was cool!
Even Chris’s album was sweet.

What happened to the creative times FL!?
They died.

I still listen to all kinds of world spiritual music---

Gregorian chants.
Hawaiian chants.
Tibetan Monks
Klezmer
Sufi master [www.npr.org]
Ethiopian Music
Even some American Country Music’s got soul!
No better version of the Lord’s Prayer than the African version
on the “Serafina” soundtrack album!

Classical---
Bachs Brandenburg Concertos
Handel (not just the Messiah)
Beethovens Ode to Joy
Offenbach’s Tales of Hoffman
Andre Boccelli singing anything!
On and on…….

Oldies--
Beatles
Stevie Wonder
Dylan
The Byrds
Credence
Richie Havens
“Whiter Shade of Pale” gets me every time!
Too many to name

Newbies---

Vega 4 – Life is Beautiful.
[www.youtube.com]
This is the anti-FL cult anthem!!!!!
&
Another version of what is essentially Ecclesiastesies
[www.youtube.com]

And recently, from the exiled Jew :cry: of the forum,
Who turned me on to Matisyahu, a reggae Chassidic singer!
[www.youtube.com]

You get what you bring to it.
Maybe nothing here is perfect.
Call me sentimental
Call me a neophyte
Call me an enjoyer
Call me a demon
But every day I try to do another good deed
Try to put a smile on someone’s face
Try to please the Supreme.
I don’t belong to a group or have a FL
But what resides inside of me.
I bet a lot of exes do the same.

Quote
hoax108

Here's an example from Christianity but it works for any bona fide path:
Here are the fruits of the spirit that can be obtained through faith and trust in God and overcoming temptation (sin): love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

See how you measure up to these virtues and ask yourself if following FL is going to help your spiritual life bear fruit. For God meant our spiritual lives to bear abundant fruit.

Beautiful hoaxster.

Hey, quotesman,
didn't you put up the qualities of a devotee here a long time ago?
time for a repeat.

Quote
quotesman

Very spooky indeed. Yea the chants got way hysterical, nothing much spiritual about that at all. Just a mere shadow or reflection of the real thing. FL and the queen bee became the deity in that cult.

... really perverted and disgusting.

Well spoken! I missed this post, but it really hits the nail on the head about what became of the kirtans. :roll:

Quote
terrenaut

Many things are wrong. Is there any hope they can be fixed? Comments?

This is the sad part. Those of us who have left grieved over this.
I made my decision.
I don't know if it can ever be fixed.
I gave it a lot of years and nothing changed. It only got worse.
But that was my experience.
Maybe when FL passes on...
Maybe the youth will change things in the future...


I don't believe in giving up on people,
but there comes a time to seriously consider discriminating
between truth and untruth.

Consider that FL may have a
mental disorder.

How much space is there between your original ideals and the philosophy that made you join and what you experience now?

How is your involvement with FL affecting you, your family, your friends, your community?

If you were your son or daughter, how would your advise them
if they were in your situation?

The official "party line" I remember getting regarding FLs marriage was as follows:

FL had a large number of single female disciples and he had to interact with them and counsel them in his service to Krishna. He thought it would be more proper to be married to continue to serve in this way.

So the confidential loving servant of Krishna needs to concern himself with such mundane matters. Where is a reference to this in the Vedas? Perhaps in the Screwed-Upanishads. Or in the Sri-is-Mad Bhagavatam.

Perhaps he got his info from the Queen?

"Alice: There's no use trying…one can't believe impossible things.

The Queen: I dare say you haven't had much practice.
Why sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Alice in Wonderland

Quote
hoax108
The official "party line" I remember getting regarding FLs marriage was as follows:

FL had a large number of single female disciples and he had to interact with them and counsel them in his service to Krishna. He thought it would be more proper to be married to continue to serve in this way.

So the confidential loving servant of Krishna needs to concern himself with such mundane matters. Where is a reference to this in the Vedas? Perhaps in the Screwed-Upanishads. Or in the Sri-is-Mad Bhagavatam.

You are correct. that is what we were all told.

Quote
hoax108
The official "party line" I remember getting regarding FLs marriage was as follows:

FL had a large number of single female disciples and he had to interact with them and counsel them in his service to Krishna. He thought it would be more proper to be married to continue to serve in this way.

So the confidential loving servant of Krishna needs to concern himself with such mundane matters. Where is a reference to this in the Vedas? Perhaps in the Screwed-Upanishads. Or in the Sri-is-Mad Bhagavatam.

This is just another example of FL twisting the philosophy to suit his own desires. In fact he wanted a consort, period. He is attached to the opposite sex, period. I am not saying that is a fault. But it is for one to take sannyasa while still maintaining such desires. The institution of sannyasa was created by B.S. Sarasvati Thakur for the sole purpose of preaching. But FL is saying it is a hinderance. By his example he is saying it gets in his way of preaching. This is a slap in the face of all past sannyasis in the line and all living sannyasis in the Gaudiay line. So by his own example he is contradicting the line he claims to represent. One well known vaishnava acharya, when told what FL said defending himself for breaking sannyasa commented, 'why did he take sannyasa in the first place?' Obviously he took it for prestige. ACB and many other living acharyas have/had many female disciples, and it does not seem to be a problem. The reasons he gave for breaking sannyasa were lame excuses.

At one point FL was chastised by ACB for not carrying his danda, FL remarked it was difficult to get on planes. ACB remarked all his other sannyasa disciples had no problem carrying it on planes. Still FL refused to carry the danda. Another time ACB asked him why he did not like to keep a shaved head. FL remarked it made him get colds. ACB remarked back it was not a problem with his other sannyasa followers and that he should wear a hat if his head got cold. Still he did not comply. This stuff will never be told to the rank and file followers of FL and it is really ashamed. The point is not whether it is good to have a shaved head or not. The point is he refused to follow the instructions of his own guru. Had ACB said go ahead and give up your danda, wear long hair, separate yourself from me, give up the traditional ragas and introduce rock and roll as the standard etc etc then it would have been ok for FL to do that. But ACB never said any of that stuff was ok and in fact it irritated him that FL did not want to follow very closely what he was teaching and offering. And when the hysterical kirtans began to appear in ISKCON, ACB referred to it as 'bile secretion'. He did not like it at all. Nor did he like wild dancing. He was very reserved about the kirtans.

Dassi,
The point about music is not that we should not enjoy music. The point is we should not see the holy name as meant for our enjoyment. That is the Gaudiya Vaishnava teaching. I like all kinds of music too. Especially I am fond of soft rock and I love the traditional Indian Ragas. But I do not use this to try to enjoy the holy name. There is a separation. Sometimes I also eat food that is not offerable to Krishna. Things like onions, garlic, mushrooms etc. I am very aware of what I am doing. I do not offer Krishna what I know he does not like in order to enjoy it myself. I make a separation, when I am doing something for my own enjoyment and when I am trying to do something to please the Lord. I do not chant a mantra over the food and think Krishna will accept that. If it is for my personal enjoyment I am willing to take the karma for it, I don't ask Krishna to eat it so that I will be relieved of karma. I am not in the illusion that Krishna will accept it and that I will be eating prasadam.

The wild kirtans will not help one go forward spiritually although on occasion they may be fun and enjoyable and a way to attract new people to the name.. But as a standard this is not the process. And we all saw the result of the hysterical kirtans. None of us felt it helped us in the long run.

This caught my eye:

Quote
quotesman
He [Chris Butler] is attached to the opposite sex, period.

I've posted along these lines before. I think that people who are obsessed with homosexuality are often homosexuals themselves. Or, I suppose that they could be insecure in whatever sexual orientation they have.

I would not be surprised if Chris Butler, Mike Gabbard, and throw in Hesh Goldstein, for good measure, are gay. One of them could be gay, or all of them could be gay.

The obsession, the preoccupation is still there. It is just not selling as well ast it once did.

I realize that the Krishna Consciousness-type religions tend toward the Puritanical, despite Krishna and his 16,000 gopis and 160,000 children.

Sex for procreation only. Sex only once a month, after much chanting. Sex stops for the woman at age 30. No premarital sex. No sex outside of marriage. No divorce.

This is stuff that I read about the Hare Krishnas years ago.

I know people who knew SIF devotees here in Hawaii. They said that there was a lot of sex going on amongst them.

We need to keep in mind that Chris Butler had, and has, power. As a devotee's "spiritual representative of God," he is looked up to by the devotees, even deified.

Having power, and having power over someone else, makes Chris Butler (and Mike Gabbard and Hesh Goldstein) more sexually attractive to others in the cult.

You could almost think of power as an aphrodisiac.

"Monkey on a Stick" documents a lot of sexual monkey business amongst the ISKCON Hare Krishnas. From what I've heard it was going on within SIF, as well.

Stories of sexual abuse of devotees by cult leaders are pretty common and it is almost to be expected. I don't think it is unusual for cult leaders to have sex with followers of either gender.

Add to it that Mr. Butler probably did some drugs, perhaps even LSD, and it is certainly possible that he had at least one homosexual experience. Perhaps he liked it and that freaked him out.

I know that Chris Butler has been married several times. But homosexuals often marry and even have children. An example that springs to mind is Malcolm Forbes. I am sure we can dig up many examples.

We can hear the words of Chris Butler. We can see the outward trappings of heterosexuality. But we don't know what his real feelings are or what is really going on in his mind. We don't know what his true sexual attractions are.

His total obsession with homosexuality makes me truly wonder if he is "attached to the opposite sex, period."

Like so many other concoctions FL concocted his own methods when it comes to offering things to Krishna.

THere is a funny story in relation to this.
One of FL's followers had invited a devotee from a different mission to his house for chanting and prasadam. The devotee witnessed FL's devotee bathing the form of Krishna then taking the bath water to use to make a smoothie. After making the smoothie with the bathwater FL's devotee offered the smoothie to Krishna on the alter. The outsider in a very humble manner tried to tell FL's follower it was not correct to offer Krishna's bathwater back to Krishna. FL's devotee said, "our spiritual master has taught us a different way." The invited guest said," he may have taught you a different way but Krishna DOES NOT drink His own bathwater." For one who knows anything about the proper way to offer things to Krishna will find this story a little funny and would wonder how a long time devotee could not understand you don't offer the Lord his own bathwater to drink.