People who break the rules, are the people who in the end proved the world is round instead of flat. Jericho belongs here, and in time he will get over it and come home.

More great posts lately....thanks everyone.

Quotesman - great info on Nityananda Prabhu, stuff I did not know and it shows that you are up on your scripture. Well done and thanks.

I was just recalling the many lectures in which a devotee (usually one of Yoga Queen's daughters) would read fron Chaitanya Charitamrita and FL would chime in with his observations, often with a kind of phony laugh like he was enjoying transcendental pleasure from these readings that we all did not get.

Dassi - I too gave meditation classes under a strict format from FL. Felt uncomfortable sometimes and I often wondered if what I was teaching was actually meditation.

I also wonder about religion being slightly ethnocentric (is that a word?) I mean Krishna, Rama, Shiva, etc. all came out of Indian culture. Christ originated in Jewish cuture and spread to the emerging Western culture.

That is NOT to say that a Westerner cannot benefit by following Eastern traditions and vice versa. I think I'm just saying that the practices and beliefs seem to have ethnicity involved.

I also always found it kinda funny - all the Westerners running around with these funky Sanskrit names.

I also found the Krishna stories interesting and fun but certainly, in my mind, mythological. I think most devotees take these as factual. Even the stories in the Mahabharat - like the Battle of Kuruksetra - I think these are not historical but allegorical.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Akhenaten:

Your response to my previous post is disturbing.

Please understand that if you break the rules you will be banned.

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hoax108
More great posts lately....thanks everyone.

Quotesman - great info on Nityananda Prabhu, stuff I did not know and it shows that you are up on your scripture. Well done and thanks.

Dassi - I too gave meditation classes under a strict format from FL. Felt uncomfortable sometimes and I often wondered if what I was teaching was actually meditation.

I also wonder about religion being slightly ethnocentric
I also found the Krishna stories interesting and fun but certainly, in my mind, mythological. I think most devotees take these as factual. Even the stories in the Mahabharat - like the Battle of Kuruksetra - I think these are not historical but allegorical.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Well, we could not teach what we were not taught.
We were only taught to rush through our rounds
To work another day for FL.
So was it meditation or mindless droning?
I wonder.
Do the words and mantras have an intrinsic spiritual power of their own
Or is it all in the mind and heart of the believer?

I know people who practice different types of meditation
(not just ethnocentric Indian)
Who are not culty and secretive
Who lead good lives
And seem to derive great benefit
From their practices.

I know a man who sincerely wondered if the stories were allegorical or literal too.
He wrote FL a heartfelt letter explaining that the stories seemed like fairy tales.
He wanted to be a devotee and had questions. You can imagine what happened.
The guy was blasted and berated and banned.
His wife was an initiated disciple and “it is known” that one should leave a non-devotee. She was smart – she left FL instead and never looked back.
Ah, but they are demons in devotees eyes, aren’t they?
Sigh…

I look at the stories as allegorical with layers of hidden messages.
The Bible, Bhagavad Gita, myths, and fairy tales.
True histories mixed with imagination, dreams, wisdom, and time.
Lessons humans pass on to children from time immemorial.
The lessons gleaned, just like the benefits of mantra meditation
Seem to be all in the eye and mind and heart of the beholder.

But FL obviously built his gross cult on the backs of real sages
And great stories.
The rest he stole from snake oil salesmen.

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hoax108
More great posts lately....thanks everyone.

Quotesman - great info on Nityananda Prabhu, stuff I did not know and it shows that you are up on your scripture. Well done and thanks.

I was just recalling the many lectures in which a devotee (usually one of Yoga Queen's daughters) would read fron Chaitanya Charitamrita and FL would chime in with his observations, often with a kind of phony laugh like he was enjoying transcendental pleasure from these readings that we all did not get.

Dassi - I too gave meditation classes under a strict format from FL. Felt uncomfortable sometimes and I often wondered if what I was teaching was actually meditation.

I also wonder about religion being slightly ethnocentric (is that a word?) I mean Krishna, Rama, Shiva, etc. all came out of Indian culture. Christ originated in Jewish cuture and spread to the emerging Western culture.

That is NOT to say that a Westerner cannot benefit by following Eastern traditions and vice versa. I think I'm just saying that the practices and beliefs seem to have ethnicity involved.

I also always found it kinda funny - all the Westerners running around with these funky Sanskrit names.

I also found the Krishna stories interesting and fun but certainly, in my mind, mythological. I think most devotees take these as factual. Even the stories in the Mahabharat - like the Battle of Kuruksetra - I think these are not historical but allegorical.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Hoax,

Yes I do have thoughts on some of the things you said. I would request Rick Ross to correct me if what I say appears to be preaching. I do not wish to be banned and would like to continue to take part of this discussion. Much of what I say here will be historical fact, much will be the opinion of secular scholars and some will be my own opinion and the opinion of acharyas within the Gaudiya line. But be very clear I am presenting my opinions and opinions of acharyas as just that, an opinion. I am not putting forth any argument here or stating that what I am saying is the absolute truth. It is just opinion.

Hoax I remember the phony laughs. It was like that a lot with FL. It was an arrogant kind of thing, like he was looking down on us. He had it all and we were so neophyte and demonic we could never understand his high and exalted realizations. It was just a hoax though. Also a thing I noticed is sometimes he would completely ignore a question. At the time we would think either the question was stupid, the questioner insincere, we would not understand the answer etc. etc. Now I think this was a way for FL to avoid questions he had no answer to. In other words he could not answer the question so he put on this phony show and just ignored the question and questioner.

I also remember giving the classes and experiencing this cringe in my stomach. I also wondered why so few people actually became interested in the philosophy. Now I realize it was because of the way it was presented and the actual lack of philosophy presented. The whole meditation class series was a convoluted presentation. It was just another one of FL concocted methods like psychic sleep. Just a reflection of the real thing.

Hoax you say, “I also wonder about religion being slightly ethnocentric (is that a word?) I mean Krishna, Rama, Shiva, etc. all came out of Indian culture. Christ originated in Jewish cuture and spread to the emerging Western culture.”

If you talk about western religion especially Christianity I think the proper word is Eurocentric. This has been the status quo for most western scholars and historians which springs from the idea all civilization began in the Middle East and spread to the west. But now more and more historians and scholars are recognizing there is much more to the picture. For most who want to take a trip back in time think as you do that Christianity had its origins in Jewish Culture and we certainly agree it sprang out of Judaism. Most believe that is the stop off point and do not go back further in time. There has been a blanket or wall laid out that ends with Judaism as far as most in the west believe. However there is link between Judaism and Zoroastrianism that has been overlooked for centuries and is just now becoming recognized. This is a long subject matter but suffice it to say Christianity and its teachings today are more closely related Zoroastrianism than most know. Zoroaster was from India. An Indian sage who may be considered the first heretic within the Vedic culture in recent history. His philosophy did not take hold in the Vedic culture of India and he was ostracized. He brought his teachings to Iran where it caught on. Zoroastrianism was the religion of the Persians in there hey day when they ruled. It was the Zoroastrians who freed the Jews and helped them build (or rebuild depending on what you believe) their temple in Jerusalem. It is now becoming more and more recognized by scholars that they also helped them rebuild their religion giving many new concepts. Now many of those concepts are found within Christianity. The link between Zoroaster and India has been blanketed by western historians who were mostly all Christian for obvious reasons as it paints a picture of history contrary to the Christian and Jewish common view.

Anyway I do not mean to ramble on about it. This is a deep subject that ruffles a lot of feathers. Anyway now more than ever historians are recognizing the real facts and archaeological findings concerning the connect between Eastern and Western religion. Most scholars agree that Hinduism was the first religion on earth and specifically the worship of Krishna predates all other worship within Hinduism. In other words the Vaishnava religion was the first religion on earth and this is reiterated in the Veda. The following is a flash map done by a secular scholar. See who flashes up first. Of course the Zoroastrian connection is missing in the history of this flash map.

[www.mapsofwar.com]

So I would have to disagree with you Hoax in your assumption that religion has ethnically evolved. There is an evolution of theism no doubt but in my opinion that evolution has its origins in the East and specifically in India and Vaishnavism and to pinpoint it would be with Krishna. But I do think it is kind of funny when some western devotees try to put on an Indian accent or sing like a Bengali. To each his own.

You say, “I also found the Krishna stories interesting and fun but certainly, in my mind, mythological. I think most devotees take these as factual. Even the stories in the Mahabharat - like the Battle of Kuruksetra - I think these are not historical but allegorical.”

It is the opinion of many Vaishnavas that some stories are allegorical but some are not. It takes an expert to know which is which. Many stories in the Veda, specifically the Srimad Bhagavatam are not meant to be taken literally. Some Vaishnavas are literalists and others are not. Just like some Christians are literalists and others are not.

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Dassi

I know a man who sincerely wondered if the stories were allegorical or literal too.
He wrote FL a heartfelt letter explaining that the stories seemed like fairy tales.
He wanted to be a devotee and had questions. You can imagine what happened.
The guy was blasted and berated and banned.
His wife was an initiated disciple and “it is known” that one should leave a non-devotee. She was smart – she left FL instead and never looked back.
Ah, but they are demons in devotees eyes, aren’t they?
Sigh…

This type of response to a sincere question was typical of FL. In fact had the question been asked to many other Vaishnava Gurus the answer would have been very different. I can tell you I know of at least a couple of Vaishnava gurus who would have praised the question and told the guy his heartfelt conclusions were at least partially right. Not every story is meant to be taken literally.

Quotesman - interesting points regarding the evolution of theism and Zoroaster. Thank you for that.

Also interesting to note that I was just reading in the Old Testament about King Darius of Persia and how he helped the Jews rebuild - due to the Lord's intervention.

And if anyone reading this is wondering what this has to do with Siddha and SIF - well not much. Except of course that spiritual inquiry and knowledge does exist outside of FLs' influence.

And we are now free to ask questions and consider other points of view.

Wasn't it Dante who said that he may disagree with your opinion but he would descend to the gates of hell to defend your right to have your own opinion?

God gave us free will. FL gives you his will. FL is not God.

Is this logical?

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hoax108
Quotesman - interesting points regarding the evolution of theism and Zoroaster. Thank you for that.

Also interesting to note that I was just reading in the Old Testament about King Darius of Persia and how he helped the Jews rebuild - due to the Lord's intervention.

And if anyone reading this is wondering what this has to do with Siddha and SIF - well not much. Except of course that spiritual inquiry and knowledge does exist outside of FLs' influence.

And we are now free to ask questions and consider other points of view.

Wasn't it Dante who said that he may disagree with your opinion but he would descend to the gates of hell to defend your right to have your own opinion?

God gave us free will. FL gives you his will. FL is not God.

Is this logical?

:D In my opinion I think it is absolutely true what you say. and to go a step further I would say real inquiry and knowledge about the truth is very limited in the context of FL and his cult. And even further much of what is taught there is opposed to the truth.

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hoax108
Quotesman - interesting points regarding the evolution of theism and Zoroaster. Thank you for that.

Also interesting to note that I was just reading in the Old Testament about King Darius of Persia and how he helped the Jews rebuild - due to the Lord's intervention.

"Now it was from this very creed of Zoroaster that the Jews derived all the angelology of their religion...the belief in a future state; of rewards and punishments, ...the soul's immortality, and the Last Judgment - all of them essential parts of the Zoroastrian scheme." From The Gnostics and Their Remains (London 1887) by King and Moore quoted at 607a in Peake's Bible Commentary

FROM ENCYCLOPEDIA AMERICANA : "First, the figure of Satan, originally a servant of God, appointed by Him as His prosecutor, came more and more to resemble Ahriman, (the first concept of a devil found in Zoroastrianism) the enemy of God. Secondly, the figure of the Messiah, originally a future King of Israel who would save his people from oppression, evolved, in Deutero-Isaiah for instance, into a universal Savior very similar to the Iranian Saoshyant (Zoroastrian) . Other points of comparison between Iran and Israel include the doctrine of the millennia; the Last Judgment; the heavenly book in which human actions are inscribed; the Resurrection; the final transformation of the earth; paradise on earth or in heaven; and hell." by J. Duchesne-Guillemin, University of Liege, Belgium

From quoteman, “Some scholars are now of the opinion the book of Ezra in the Old Testament was written by a Persian Zoroastrian. Others are of the opinion most of the Old Testament was influenced if not written by Zoroastrians.

I know this is off subject but this thread has been known to go off subject a bit from time to time.