WHY DID WE COMPLY?

We thought JG was just being harsh because he didn't hold back and just told it like it was 'cause he wasn't really interested in attracting followers, just telling the truth.

We always thought it was OUR FAULT. We were so sinful, so fallen. But if we served better, kept chanting and dancing...you know the rest.

Why did I put up with being constantly harassed by the local disciple? Treated condescendingly, put on guilt trips, judged, yelled at and belittled. A major reason I left.

Why did I put up with my "God brothers and God sisters" reporting back to the local disciple any behaviour of mine they found offensive and me getting in trouble for it? Another major reason I wanted out! Whatever happened to "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?

Why did we put up with this shit? Because we were in a cult and brainwashed.

Also, I think many seek solace in spiritual life due to many issues, among them low self-esteem. It is easy to foster compliance from people with self-esteem issues because they have a tendency to blame themselves.

By the way, the local disciple I was referring to was one of the most demoniac people I've ever met. And I am not the only one who is of this opinion. I'm trying hard to be forgiving.

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terrenaut
It also occurred to me, as I listened, that NO WAY could i share any of these tapes with a non-devotee, and in fact, I was ashamed of them. I cannot defend my spiritual master when he spews hate speak like this.

Comments?

Not only are they an embarassment, but in Australia and Canada (as was mentioned by Jagad Guru himself in at least one lecture) maybe other places as well, they are illegal. Australia has state by state vilification legislation that would punish the sale and playing of these lectures to an open audience (ie at a venue where general members of the public were invited to attend, not within a private club, which would have to be registered as such) Religious organisations are exempt from this but ASM and SIF in general do not want to be defined as a religious organisation, so it is definitely a slippery slope there. It has been considered by the directors that the religious freedom defence could be easily beaten.

Infact since CR all of the pamphlets have been changed so there is no longer any mention of being non-religious and non-sectarian because that is also something that could cause trouble with Fair Trading (false advertising). Too close to call is the reason.

There was talk about having a website where lectures could be purchased as sound files (sort of like I-Tunes) and how it would be managed so that only devotees could have access to it. Talk about preaching to the choir :oops:

What I am really curious about, and I know that I am not the only one who is still a devotee on this: Is there anything that the people here want to achieve? I have read it being said that some don't think that people should join, that they should be warned. Some have gone as far as to say that SIF should be shut down. Perhaps certain legal investigations of certain things could achieve serious charges. The disciples who run Transcendental Sound here were certainly happy that no-one came through with providing one of the vilification lectures to those who actually had a clearly defined idea of what they wanted to do. At the very least Trans. Sound would have been shut down and likely ASM and Vege Chips would have been fined as well since legally they are all the same business entity. That is how close to "change" this whole affair actually came.

It was a terrible thing to pick up the newspaper for the entire Gold Coast, the weekend edition no less, and read about an organisation that was obviously us and that a person that many of us had known, or at least seen around, blamed their involvement with us for destroying their life. Not everyone felt that the best thing to do in response was just to set up more yoga classes and get a new venue. No-one has the desire to be hurting other people. But devotees remained pretty quite on these thoughts and just go along with it. I honestly don't know if many of the instructions that I feel compelled to follow come from Jagad Guru or not anymore.

Many devotees have been very upset and concerned, myself included. We are not as concerned now that this is the only site on the internet, Rick Ross was never really taken seriously, but we accept that it is really likely only a matter of time before that changes again. Ultimately we trust that we have a quality of life here that while it is not perfect, in our opinions, it is better than anything else. We are all trying to live our lives the same as you are living yours now.

Dassi you say that all the exes you know - how many would that be really? I know many many devotees, numbering into the hundreds, that are also very happy and would not have their life any other way. I know that there are many devotees that have their disagreements and questions and frustrations with the way that things are as well. I know a few ex-members that are not happy at all that they are ex-members simply because they still want what to them was the good parts of being a devotee but just couldn't live with the bad.

Officially according to Jagad Guru we are NOT supossed to read here. We are not supossed to talk to the individuals here or to any former followers. There are former followers, who are still devotees, here that have not spoken to families that broke up when Jagad Guru got married for twenty years now. Yes, to me that raises a big red flag. I would not even have known that this forum existed, and would not have been looking for it, had it not been such a concern to devotees what was being said.

Jagad Guru is obviously out of touch with what his own followers are concerned by and interested in. He has not been out here in over ten years, and yes he is still alive, really disciples are just doing what they think is best, and they are not always getting it right. I wish that he was reading here too, although I am fairly sure that he would not be concerning himself with such things. It was very disturbing for me to read the letter posted here from Jeannie Bishop that Jagad Guru does not concern himself with who becomes his students here. Such an annoucement clearly shows that there is no reason for us to be bothered with even having a spiritual master. We may as well just watch Oprah or Phil Donohue.

Just consider this : where would the people leaving here go? If the whole of ASM was pulled down by whatever means there would be many people who lost their jobs. There would be many children put into public schools where they would be taught rubbish and have to worry about such things as bullying and sex education at 10 year old. I went to public school myself and decided before I was a devotee that home schooling was a much better option. There would be no more gatherings where people have formed genuine friendships and genuinely believe that they are getting some form of spiritual sustenance. It is one thing to say that couples should not be expected to split up just because one of them does not want to be a devotee of Jagad Guru anymore - but how would such a relationship work? Those two people would be entirely incompatable, each choosing to live very different lives.

Even when devotees do the "wrong" thing they are at least trying to uphold certain values, values that are not necessarily of concern to non devotees.

Harry bol, the bottom line is Fearless Leader (no I DO NOT call him jagad guru because he IS NOT a jagad guru) is not the only show in town. Leaving Fearless Leader does not mean leaving spiritual life, in fact for some it may be the beginning of their spiritual life.

To qualify my last post. Some like hoax and zelig went back to more western traditional spirituality. Some gave up spiritual life. Some became atheist. Some agnostics. But practically everyone will agree they are better off away from Fearless Leader. In every religion cults spring up and Vaishnavism is no different. The fact of the matter is Fearless Leader represents a very tiny fraction of what is considered the Krishna Consciousness movement. He is not a Jagad Guru, practically NO ONE recognizes him as a Jagad Guru (world teacher) outside his own cult following. Those who use the title in front of him or his disciples do that just to show respect, not knowing what goes on inside the cult. Such persons are just being cautious. He uses that title like some kind of generic name, which it IS NOT. In fact within Eastern Religious traditions the only ones who use that title the way Fearless Leader does are all mayavadi, impersonalist. Just do a google on Jagat Guru (he does not even know how to spell it by the way it is spelled with a t not a d) and see what you come up with. Even if you put both ISKCON and Fearless Leaders cult together there are still many more people outside those two organizations that are Vaishnavas than within. Last count there is something like 30 Vaishnava missions preaching in the west. I personally have been around other missions that were very healthy Vaishnava organizations (not ISKCON). But like anything you have to do your own footwork and not rely just on what other people say. Use your power of dicrimination. DO NOT GIVE UP CRITICAL THINKING. Just because everyone around a particular guru are calling him a jagat guru or paramahamsa does not make it so. Don't jump from the pot to the fire. Be careful. There are qualified Vaishnavas who can help you. Just as there are qualified priests and rabbis who can help you if you choose another path.

In one of the last post the question of doubts arose. Hey read Bhagavad-Gita again. The first two chapters are all about Arjuna and his doubts. It is not unholy to have doubts, it is healthy, it is unholy when the doubts cannot be extinguished with knowledge, it is unholy when those doubts are not allowed to be revealed for fear of being labeled a demon.

I remember one of Fearless Leaders leading followers talking about a student who brought up some doubts. His reply was, "don't pollute me with your doubts". That is NOT what takes place in the Gita. Arjuna brings his doubts up and has them dispelled. That is the proper method within Vaishnavism.

I do not mean to preach here but I have to say what the proper method is and how far Fearless Leader and his cult following have strayed from it. I hope this does not offend anyone. There are Vaishnavas coming forward and they do need help.

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I do not mean to preach here but I have to say what the proper method is and how far Fearless Leader and his cult following have strayed from it. I hope this does not offend anyone. There are Vaishnavas coming forward and they do need help.

Yes, there are Vaishnavas coming forward, not just doubting but leaving too. In another post Harry asked what do people want to achieve by this. I have spent some time now really mulling that question over, and the answer is not small. It is no exaggeration to say that the Vaishnava system itself is under attack, due to the methods of JG. I really do want him to read this and take it seriously.

If I follow in the footsteps of my Spiritual Master, then presumably I will end up just like him, that would be the goal. But, as has been pointed out many times on this entire topic... many of his methods and activities are not in sync with Vaishnava philosophy. A logical thinker, therefore, has to conclude that, if JG did in fact follow prescribed teachings and applied them as instructed, then Vaishnavism does not work, that the method of spiritual purification and the resulting spiritual vision, simply are bogus.

Either JG is wrong, in which case Vaishnavism is also wrong, or JG is right and Vaishnavism is a terrible thing. JG HAS to address this. It is a mess.

And where are the local disciples on this? What has happened to their spiritual vision that they are also upholding too many aberrations? Again, either they are deliberately turning a blind eye or they actually agree. Both of these responses also indicate that the method just doesn't work.

So, in addition to the documented material abuses within the organization, you also have the much worse spiritual abuse..not only of the individuals giving their hearts and lives, but the abuse of Vaishnavism itself.

somebody needs to wake the hell up.

ARE YOU LISTENING, JG?

Quotesman - excellent post. Great point about Arjuna.

Christ expressed his doubts quite clearly in the "Agony in the Garden". He also decided to do God's will.

Which brings up the point of similarity of mystical thought. All religions are very similar in their foundational teachings - loving and serving God, freeing yourself from material entanglements, prayer, meditation, singing God'd praises, asking for forgiveness.

Fearless Leader and many of his followers make it sound like the ONLY way to engage in these practices is with them. This is simply not true. Thankyou God.

So if you want to worship Krishna, Rama, Allah, Jehovah, or Shiva, go for it. As long as you are on the path to becoming for loving and giving.

Harry, it sounds like you are going through the usual issues of a person thinking about ending a relationship - where will I go? What will I do? Who will I hang with? These things always work themselves out. Believe me, I've been there more than once.

As for me, I'm on this forum to share and be supportive. This forum has helped me to realize that leaving the cult was a good thing for me and helped me to get on with my life. A sense of closure.

I have no agenda. I'm not here to try to bring SIF down. But if you ask my opinion, I'd say stay away.

I guess I would have to admit that I am a little concerned with the fanaticism exhibited by some of his followers. I hope they don't turn into suicide bombers.

Other than that I think the best thing for me to do is to continue to work on myself and my relationship with God.

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terrenaut

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I do not mean to preach here but I have to say what the proper method is and how far Fearless Leader and his cult following have strayed from it. I hope this does not offend anyone. There are Vaishnavas coming forward and they do need help.

Yes, there are Vaishnavas coming forward, not just doubting but leaving too. In another post Harry asked what do people want to achieve by this. I have spent some time now really mulling that question over, and the answer is not small. It is no exaggeration to say that the Vaishnava system itself is under attack, due to the methods of JG. I really do want him to read this and take it seriously.

If I follow in the footsteps of my Spiritual Master, then presumably I will end up just like him, that would be the goal. But, as has been pointed out many times on this entire topic... many of his methods and activities are not in sync with Vaishnava philosophy. A logical thinker, therefore, has to conclude that, if JG did in fact follow prescribed teachings and applied them as instructed, then Vaishnavism does not work, that the method of spiritual purification and the resulting spiritual vision, simply are bogus.

Either JG is wrong, in which case Vaishnavism is also wrong, or JG is right and Vaishnavism is a terrible thing. JG HAS to address this. It is a mess.

And where are the local disciples on this? What has happened to their spiritual vision that they are also upholding too many aberrations? Again, either they are deliberately turning a blind eye or they actually agree. Both of these responses also indicate that the method just doesn't work.

So, in addition to the documented material abuses within the organization, you also have the much worse spiritual abuse..not only of the individuals giving their hearts and lives, but the abuse of Vaishnavism itself.

somebody needs to wake the hell up.

ARE YOU LISTENING, JG?

Fearless leader did not follow prescribed teachings. In fact many of the tenents of Vaishnavism he ignored and on occasion did just the opposite.
Like taking the vow of sannyas then breaking it.
The fact that he married his own disciple, his own spiritual daughter, makes it hundreds of times worse.


Vantasi - one who eats his own vomit. This refers to one who abandons household life and formally enters the renounced order of sannyasa, but who again establishes connection with women.
Vaishnava dictionary

Not a nice word in the Vaishnava vocabulary. This word does not go next to the title Jagat Guru or Acharya.

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hoax108
Quotesman - excellent post. Great point about Arjuna.

Christ expressed his doubts quite clearly in the "Agony in the Garden". He also decided to do God's will.

Which brings up the point of similarity of mystical thought. All religions are very similar in their foundational teachings - loving and serving God, freeing yourself from material entanglements, prayer, meditation, singing God'd praises, asking for forgiveness.

Fearless Leader and many of his followers make it sound like the ONLY way to engage in these practices is with them. This is simply not true. Thankyou God.

So if you want to worship Krishna, Rama, Allah, Jehovah, or Shiva, go for it. As long as you are on the path to becoming for loving and giving.

Harry, it sounds like you are going through the usual issues of a person thinking about ending a relationship - where will I go? What will I do? Who will I hang with? These things always work themselves out. Believe me, I've been there more than once.

As for me, I'm on this forum to share and be supportive. This forum has helped me to realize that leaving the cult was a good thing for me and helped me to get on with my life. A sense of closure.

I have no agenda. I'm not here to try to bring SIF down. But if you ask my opinion, I'd say stay away.

I guess I would have to admit that I am a little concerned with the fanaticism exhibited by some of his followers. I hope they don't turn into suicide bombers.

Other than that I think the best thing for me to do is to continue to work on myself and my relationship with God.

Thanks hoax and I agree. Fearless leader is not the only way to God. In fact he may not be a way at all.
Even in the tradition he misrepresents he is not seen as an acharya or world teacher. Those who know something about him know he is not in the Gaudiya Line, even Swami Bhaktivedanta said he has his own sampradaya. Those who do not know what goes on show him respect from a distance and give him the benefit of the doubt. It is a Vaishnava tradition to always give the benefit of the doubt. However if you know what goes on around him there is NO DOUBT that he is a fraud.

Quotesman - another good point about FL (I now refer to him as such) with regards to marrying his disciple. Didn't Lord Nityananda get married and have kids later on? Seems to ring a bell with me.

I was quite amazed at the strong evidence that FL never followed the instructions of ACB.

In his lectures he always made it seem that he was so devoted to him. But then he had to because a guru always surrenders to his guru.

Terrenaut commented on following in her Spiritual Masters footsteps - yes, that is proper conduct in spiritual life. However, one of the roles of a Vaishnava guru is to prepare other disciples for this role. It doesn't appear that FL is doing this at all.

Actually, he just grooms disciples to become his puppets in the U.S. Senate. What are his motives for doing this? Are they pure or devious? The methods used to get his puppets elected certainly have been devious.

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quotesman
Leaving Fearless Leader does not mean leaving spiritual life, in fact for some it may be the beginning of their spiritual life.

THANK YOU FOR THIS COMMENT!

I no longer follow the Vaishnava system,
but respect any one, religious or not
who lives a righteous life;
Being kind to animals and children,
Doing good works or charity for others,
works on improving themselves and everything around them,
plants a garden where none existed before,
random acts of kindness,
stuff like that.

All this talk of our spiritual demise and death was a Sidd invention.

PS- It is so refreshing to have a civil forum where people can exchange ideas without being jammed or driven off!
thanks to all of you who are playing nice on this forum!
I know I am not the only one who appreciates it.