I fully believed that Chris Butler was a disciple of ACB also which is a large part of the reason why I placed trust in him. If I could of I would have become a disciple of ACB proper although the ritvik system (initiating in his name in his abscence) is not in effect which may or may not have been his wishes depending on who you believe.

There is a new ISKCON section on the cultofbutler site which is quite extensively referenced and draws from direct sources.

The brief story is that as Sai Chris Butler was practicing mystic yoga and claimed after that he achieved bhramajyoti but on arrival there found that he had to ask permission so he reasoned that if there was permission to be granted that there must be a higher authority. He was into LSD use at the time. He took to Krishna Consciousness which was at the height of it's popularity then and was claiming to be spreading the teachings of ACB although also independent and a spiritual master himself. If you have read Sai Speaks you will notice this towards the back.

ISKCON in Hawaii took exception to what he was doing - how he was going about preaching I am not sure but ACB actually felt compelled to send a circular for public distribution to contradict his actions and in effect warn the public that he was not genuine. At this time the letter survives but the circular has not been obtained. What it would say would certainly provide a great insight into the character of Chris Butler I am sure.

Towards the end of 1969 Sai wrote to ACB and offerred money and giving up his own following in surrender to ACB and he was told that he was welcome. That he then went on to do whatever he wanted and disobey ACB at every opportunity is recorded in the Transcendental Diaries of Hari Sauri (which are so far on site) and elsewhere.

I've been discovering quotes from Jagad Guru and links to Science of Identity webpages on Craig's List.

I've found them on Craig's List Vienna, Craig's List Budapest, Craig's List Los Angeles, Craig's List Buenos Aires and even in the San Francisco Bay Area, Craig's List "Upper Market/Castro Street."

Some of these postings are gone now.

Here's an example from Craig's List Buenos Aires:

[buenosaires.craigslist.org]

And one from Budapest Craig's List:

[budapest.craigslist.org]

Greece Craig's List:

[athens.craigslist.org]

Hi atheist - there was originally over a thousand of these. You can flag them but I dont know what good it would really do since there are thousands of followers obviously with nothing better to do. ASM and Vege Chips have gone into dedicated spam mode too.

This morning I got another email from Jeannie Bishop titled "Something to Consider" Clearly she reads here as the quote that she attributes to me is from here a few weeks ago.

I would think that there would be no reason that Jeannie could not sign up and enlighten everyone who is posting here and has been reading here and has questions. Still nothing that has been revealed about Chris Butler and Science of Identity/Australian School of Meditation has been refuted. No-one is entitled to question where the [u:083b251c22]Half a Million [/u:083b251c22]dollars spent in one year on "Missionary" expenses went with SoI. No-one is entitled to know why Chris Butler lived with his female disciples or is entitled to ask why he did not follow the instructions of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami or indeed ANY other question.

Jeannie Bishop does not want to communicate, she simply wants to make declarations, clutch at straws in the attempt to get what she wants and then go away again. If indeed I have any power to prevent this then I will do my best. Chris Butler criticises ISKCON for changing books, he criticises the character of ISKCON gurus but the truth is that he is no more qualified than any of them. He was not especially favoured by Bhaktivedanta Swami, he was not even made one of the GBC which while controversial was initiated by ACB himself. He was infact frequently condemned and practices which he still teaches today were condemned. Practices and philosophies which he teaches today are not even in the Vedas.

It should be noted that Jeannie quotes the same old Scripture that is the only Scripture that any follower of Chris Butler seems to know.

Now I believe that I have stated very clearly that I will communicate with Science of Identity, I will communicate with Chris Butler himself - where the hell is he by the way? When he says teacher of the world does he mean some other world? This is not communicating. If she wants to quote Scripture please, I know Scripture all day long, I will gladly have a debate about it. Radha Krishna das has already come and went, he claimed that he would answer my questions but would not do so publically because it is not appropriate to do so. All he did was tell me that Queen Kunti prayed for hardship so that she would always feel Krishna was close and that I should feel fortunate that he wrecked my life because it will bring me closer to Krishna :?

As far as I am concerned all of these letters are evidence that Chris Butler and his followers are totally devoid of thinking. They are fanatics that cannot believe facts clearly presented with supporting evidence. Chris Butler is not even acting as a guru to anyone, and once more I do seriously question whether he is coherent or even breathing on this mortal earth.

I guess I will have to go to Hawaii and one way or another I will find out, it only costs $1000 to fly there and back and I have almost that much. It would be worth it to get access to the library archives and see the cult first hand. I am sure that a cult researcher from Australia is interesting enough to the local media (it works for Chris Butler's travelling meditation teachers) I have already asked Jeannie when I may meet with Jagad Guru and she did not answer? I'd be willing to get the TB vaccination and wear the tinfoil hat.

Dear Cara,

I hope this letter meets you in good health. I hope you are not offended if I tell you that I really think you should consider following in the footsteps of Vaishnava sages. No Vaishnava sage or saintly person would do anything like what you are doing. Instead, you're following in the footsteps of the demoniac. A person in demoniac consciousness finds great joy and happiness from inflicting trouble and anxiety in the hearts of Vaishnavas. This is exactly what you admit that you feel. It makes you feel happy inside that you are causing trouble to Vaishnavas, 99% of whom you have never met and really know nothing about. It makes you feel powerful and important when you see that you are causing Vaishnavas trouble. This is clearly evidenced by your statement:

"It is obvious that I can make you jump and I love it, I've been doing it for ages and if you think you are one step ahead that is only because I let you think that."

The happiness and joy that you're experiencing is not the joy of bhakti or love for the Supreme. It is joy that a demon feels. It is the joy of feeling powerful; it is the joy of feeling that you are causing pain or hurt to others. This demoniac consciousness is fully exemplified when you say "… only because I let you think that." The trouble you are causing to Vaishnavas, the offensive activity you are engaging in, is bringing you a temporary happiness of feeling powerful … feeling like you are in control.

Even if you are convinced and sincerely believe that Jagad Guru and his disciples are not Vaishnavas, you would still not feel the type of happiness you are feeling by causing them trouble. A real devotee never feels happiness in the pain of others, regardless of who they are, Vaishnava or non-Vaishnava. This is demoniac consciousness. This consciousness completely separates a person from Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, who teaches that:

"One should chant Harinama in a humble state of mind feeling oneself to be lower than the straw in the street. In such a state of mind one can chant Harinama constantly."

If you believe that I am incorrect, then perhaps you should consider finding and approaching someone who you believe is a bona fide Vaishnava spiritual master who you can actually trust and have confidence in. If you find such a person, then I humbly suggest that you give that person complete information about your crusade, i.e., show them your website, your statements and posts on the Rick Ross site, etc. See if a person who you consider to be a bona fide Vaishnava acharya would confirm if your crusade against Jagad Guru and his disciples is inspired by and is the will of God. Cara, you seem to respect Narayan Maharaj and possibly some others as bona fide gurus, so you should seriously consider seeking their direct counsel and not just that of their disciples.

Since you feel you are under the direction of God, surely you must have faith that He will direct you to a bona fide Vaisnava acharya. After all, it is by God's grace that one gets guru and by guru's grace that one gets God.

So if your will is so directly attuned to Krishna's will, certainly you must be close enough to Him that He will show you who His representative is. If you believe he is, then why don't you approach that person as suggested above?

Sincerely,

Jeannie

Yes, of course Jeannie Brainless Lazy Chops, doesn't want to seriously engage in considered thought or genuine spiritual comprehension and debate. It's much easier to sling a cut and paste declaration. So it is rather paradoxical that she sends you an email titled "Something to Consider" when the course of her own life, has been focused on non-considered enlightenment and irresponsible non-thinking judgement.

Noooooooo, no, no, no: no-one is entitled to know why Chris Butler lived with his female disciples or is entitled to ask why he did not follow the instructions of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami or indeed ANY other question. NO, noooooooo, of course not. Just do what I tell you, and dont do what I do. And definitely dont ask why I do what I tell you not to do.

Yes, Cara Mad Maxess, why dont you issue a public challenge to Jagad Dollar Guru, get that lazy ass out of his concubine mansion to do some real work and a little "face-off" challenge. If he doesn't sling his spiritual ass out of bed for a confrontation, he might as well consider his ass "owned" by you. I say settle this little feud: man to man - hard core thinking chick to kingpin cheat surfboard.

Let’s see who can run the real mile. Then, they can have a tofu burger eating competition. And, after she beats his ass, he can take her on a little well-deserved prime rate real estate Hawaii beachfront mansion shopping spree.

We should have that dingbat Zelic come up with a tie-break if necessary. If we don't see the king of surfboards there, he loses!

Yes hard core thinkin chick is willing to spend her last $ 1000 on a ticket to Hawaii, to spiritually clash out the whole meaning of her existence, the reason for her spiritual breath on this planet, lay it ALL DOWN, with that lazy fraud ass in Hawaii. I wonder what he is willing to put on the line? Some free work on his gopi farm?

Instead, you're following in the footsteps of the demoniac. A person in demoniac consciousness finds great joy and happiness from inflicting trouble and anxiety in the hearts of Vaishnavas. This is exactly what you admit that you feel. It makes you feel happy inside that you are causing trouble to Vaishnavas, 99% of whom you have never met and really know nothing about. It makes you feel powerful and important when you see that you are causing Vaishnavas trouble. This is clearly evidenced by your statement:

"It is obvious that I can make you jump and I love it, I've been doing it for ages and if you think you are one step ahead that is only because I let you think that."

The happiness and joy that you're experiencing is not the joy of bhakti or love for the Supreme. It is joy that a demon feels. It is the joy of feeling powerful; it is the joy of feeling that you are causing pain or hurt to others. This demoniac consciousness is fully exemplified when you say "… only because I let you think that." The trouble you are causing to Vaishnavas, the offensive activity you are engaging in, is bringing you a temporary happiness of feeling powerful … feeling like you are in control."

The reason why she feels the way she does, is that she has found a rare thing. An important godly endorsed mission in her life, that rarely people are entrusted with. Something like a "spiritual ghostbuster". What makes her and Rama, and Ross different to you, is that she has true revolutionary blood running in her blood, dear to Jesus, and all other prophets, and most dear to God. People like her, run against the stream of suicidal spiritual rats, they want to be real, they explore, they want real answers, not spiritual bandages. They dont settle for less. They dont bend their asses over. People like you bend over and settle for less, and induce and seduce others to be ass morphined by your lies. Just like Jesus freaks, when people confront you, you call them demons, why: because you dont have any other answers. You dont have the truth, and so, you have no alternative, but to call them demons. You are a liar Jeannie! You cannot talk from the heart, you cannot talk from the head, so you have to resort to labelling people as "demons". That means you are nothing less than a 16th century witch burner. You have no logic, or rational thought to explain yourself, you only have the ability to "burn". It is people like you that are shameful. It is people like you that are the real demons. The true mark of a demon, is that they cannot change the pattern of their lives or their demonic thought processes, and Jeannie, you will find this is exactly applicable to you. You cannot and will not change. You cannot see your demonic tail, but it is there, just behind you dear, black, wriggly and with a fork!

Jeannie: prime candidate for mango lies colonic irrigation!

I fully believed that Chris Butler was a disciple of ACB also which is a large part of the reason why I placed trust in him. If I could of I would have become a disciple of ACB proper although the ritvik system (initiating in his name in his abscence) is not in effect which may or may not have been his wishes depending on who you believe.

Aaaw, please, this old banana was a coin clawing big fraud too. Get over him!

As for kindpin surfboard in Hawaii, he has no reverence at all whatever for Jesus Christ, he pays lip service to his message and life, but behind doors scorns Jesus Christ and Christians, labelling them as spiritual Platform 1 followers, a religion for the least advanced. If you think Jagad Guru has any respect for Jesus Christ or his life, or Christians, then you are a fool. He thinks they are fools, he talks of them as fools, and laughs about them as fools. But I must admit he does pay a bit of lip service to Christianity, about as much suits him when it is necessary.

That slippery Zelics, double crossin DB. He knew very well that it was prohibited to be posting messages under multiple user names, but he still did it (many times). And the douche bag got FOUND OUT!

Yessuh, its definetely Zelics. The ole tokin DB hippy took us up the old highway!

Z'sUSEDCARS is totally zelig.

Zelig would adopt a slightly different, quasi-cryptic name for someone or something, like "Krisman" for Krishna, and tirelessly use his version every single time.
Now he likes to refer to his old persona as "Zelic" and embark on the same lengthy spiels badly disguised as an unintelligent, slang riddled, grammar mashing punk.

About as convincing as the old "big nose and glasses" disquise.

You are now a total disinformant, an absolute agent provocateur, a total F and a big DB.

In agreement with the above I am totally not about to really read whatever that was, nonsensical ranting. Yeah Yeah I am the hardcore thinking chick :roll: - and dammit doesnt anyone want to see these DBs actually brought down?? Remember folks - just like those Nigerian bank scam letters people don't realise that people TALK with accents but they dont WRITE with them - Doh!!

So this is how contact with Jeannie Bishop ends..

The poor woman works 20 hours a week all year for no pay as the President of SIF presumably subsisting only on toenail prashadam and the congealed venom she spits on behalf of her guru at the slightest truth..err criticism.

Three times Jeannie has been asked by me to inform me whether Jagad Guru is living or not - how could this be a hard question? :? She did not reply to my sugguestion that I go to Hawaii.

Nothing sinister about this at all - I wonder what they would do if they got another guru to threaten as Sid's followers did with Narayan Maharaj? Needless to say they did not.

All she has achieved is proving that there is truth to the saying never wrestle with a pig because the pig always wants to get dirty.

Dear Cara,

Thank you for your response. Before I respond more completely to it, could you please answer some simple questions?

Who is your siksa guru? You claim that your siksa guru "is not concerned by" your activities. By saying that your siksa guru "is not concerned by" what you're doing, you're implying that your siksa guru knows what you're doing and doesn't believe that it poses any danger to your spiritual well-being. This could be considered a type of confirmation that what you are doing is "God's will." However, it is not clear to me whether this is indeed what you're saying—that you have a Vaishnava siksa guru and your siksa guru or instructing spiritual master knows what you're doing and condones it. Is this what you're saying?

Of course, if you said your siksa guru does not want to have anything to do with what you are doing, then obviously this means he disapproves of it; i.e., by his example, he is teaching you that he does not engage in Vaishnava aparadha.

So if it's not too much trouble, perhaps you could answer the above simple questions.

Best wishes,

Jeannie

BTW Vaishnava Aparadha is not criticising devotees.

I have taken some points out of the below article.

What SIF would intend to do at the very least (they tend to prefer threatening people with a little more fire power than brimstone) would be to call on the guru to denounce me on the Scriptural basis that a guru that condones criticism of a Vaishnava will go to hell - but so will those who become initiated for money or fame :twisted: so I guess I'll see ya there Chris!

[www.vnn.org]

THE ONLY THREE WAYS TO REMOVE VAISHNAVA-APARADHA

(1) TO GENUINELY BEG FORGIVENESS FROM THE VAISHNAVA OFFENDED:

(2) BY CHANTING THE NAME OF LORD NITYANANDA CONSTANTLY:

nityananda-prasade se ninda yaya ksaya
nityananda-prasade se visnu-bhakti haya

(3) BY READING THE ORIGINAL BENGALI VERSES OF CHAITANYA-BHAGAVATA, MADHYA-KHANDA CHP 22 DAILY OR REGULARLY:

e bada adbhuta katha suna savadhane
vaishnava aparadha ghuce ihara sravane

Listen carefully to this wonderful pastime of how Shri Shachimata got delivered from her offense against Shrila Advaita Acharya in this Chp 22. By hearing or reading this narration one will be become from the Vaishnava aparadha committed. (12)

Interesting considering Siddha's own initiation and subsequent actions:

Therefore if the Guru gives initiation into the Krishna Mantra due to a desire for money or following, he will commit this namaparadha against Krishna's Name and will thus go to hell

If the Guru does not reject the envious disciple in this way, the Guru becomes implicated in this aparadha and quickly becomes devoid of bhakti and engages in abominable activities due to the bewilderment of the illusory energy or Maya

Many Gurus are not aware of this process of rejection of a staunch and hypocrite Vaishnava aparadhi or Nama aparadhi disciple due to a lack of deep study of this classic book, Hari-nama-cintamani. Thus they get implicated into this vicious offense which in turn leads to their own falldown sooner or later as stated in these verses.

iha na kariya jei dena nama dhana
sei aparadhe tara narekete patana

"Therefore if a Guru gives Krishna-Mantra-Diksha without creating strong faith in the disciple for Krishna-Nama, then the Guru falls down to hell due to his offense against Krishna-Nama."

Considering that Siddhaswarupananda was committing offences like this before I was even born then there isnt really any concern for me or anyone else criticising a Vaishnava by criticising him and at any rate a Scripture verse daily as insurance isnt that bad a deal.

I am new here. I have been monitoring this sie from the first question posted and have reached page 15 of 130. At this point in the discussion initiate and devadasi seem to be the main posters. My queation is this before I spend anymore time on this, as I am new to discussion boards as well, is this. Is this board still active. most of the posts seem a couple? of years old. I was a follower of siddhasurup. An advanced student if you will. I had approached for initiation "sent my beads up" but fell out shortly after. Could not handle the bliss of chastisement? Have a lot of guilt but seill a huge attraction to the holy name and chant often trying to reconcile my thoughts/beliefs/brainwahing.

-yournamedas