BTW over 1000 unique views a month, two newspaper articles in the past two months, employees lost to SoI and Noni has changed their name because of the people zelig and co chased away - let what they have done speak for itself.

I was interested in reading the recent posts about Vrindavan Gabbard, who, I think, is Mike Gabbard's youngest child.

I managed to find her listed on those Prabhu Das recordings. Thanks for the information.

If you do a Google search on "Vrindavan Gabbard" a Vrindavan Gabbard who is affiliated with John Jay College comes up. I wouldn't be surprised if that is our cult-affiliated Vrindavan.

If you are wondering what Tulsi Gabbard Tamayo is up to, take a look at U.S. Senator Dan Akaka's website at:

[www.senate.gov]

She is a Legislative Assistant to Democratic U.S. Senator Daniel Akaka.

I wonder if husband, Eduardo Tamayo is with her in Washington, D.C.?

It is also interesting in light of her contributions to the Republican Party that she is working for a Democrat. She made a contribution to the Republican Party while she was still a Democratic Hawaii State Representative. If we had found out about the contribution in time, it could have gotten her kicked out of the Democratic Party, or so I am told.

It's interesting that the daughter of a Republican is working for a democrat, but then SoI has always played both sides of the political arena - it isn't about principle for them, just getting into power.

You would be right that is the same Vrindavan Gabbard she works in criminal justice.

When atheist posted about the Honolulu Weekly article I made a comment here about Jeannie Bishop not contacting me, and the next day I got an email saying that she was working on answering my email from ages ago and that she would get back to me soon. Two days later I got this :

Dear Cara,

I'm sorry to learn that you feel you were treated badly by some representatives of the Australian School of Meditation.

Regarding your question as to whether or not Jagad Guru had any involvement with your being "prevented" from being his student, the answer is no. The Australian School of Meditation is a separate entity from the Science of Identity Foundation. Jagad Guru does not get involved with decisions made by those who run the ASM or SIF regarding the acceptance or rejection of students into its classes, etc. Jagad Guru is not involved in such matters.

Please keep in mind that every individual, even those who chant and are supposedly representing a particular guru or organization, should still be held personally responsible for their individual behavior, especially in regard to how they are treating others.

There are so many students and disciples, including senior disciples, of bona fide spiritual masters who may not possess the best character or be truly representative in their behavior of their spiritual master.

Indeed, Jagad Guru Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa was treated very badly by many senior disciples of His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad. But this never shook his faith in his spiritual master. Also, it is always good to reflect upon our own faults and imperfections as we try to make spiritual progress and try to be tolerant of or overlook the faults of others who chant. This is the teaching of Nitai-Gauranga.

Therefore, if you or anyone else sincerely desires to be Jagad Guru's student, then they should consider the following:

A person can be known as a true student of Jagad Guru if they are following his instructions regarding their personal spiritual practices and being careful not to criticize other vaishnavas—even those we may deem to be not as "perfect" a vaishnava as ourselves. If a person follows Jagad Guru's instructions regarding their personal spiritual practices and is careful not to commit offenses against other vaishnavas, then their spiritual love and inner happiness will endlessly increase. If, on the other hand, a person does not follow Jagad Guru's instructions, even if they claim to be his student or disciple, we can know that they are not really so. Anyone can claim to be a student of Jagad Guru; however, such a claim does not mean a person actually is Jagad Guru's student.

Sincerely and best wishes,

Jeannie Bishop

President, Science of Identity Foundation

So um.. you don't even have to be a good or genuine devotee to be made a disciple? I thought Jagad Guru knew people's true heart - so why would he make arseholes like Radha Krishna das his disciples? They're his representatives right - and if you can't trust his representatives then how can you have a spiritual life? What a complete mess of a so-called (when it is convenient to call it that) religion. Can't approach Krishna directly need a spiritual master, can approach spiritual master through disciples unless disciple proves to be an A*hole and then they are not really a disciple. Follow Jagad Guru's regarding your "personal spiritual practices" well um I do that since I dont have any personal instructions. Far as I know Jagad Guru thinks I'm great. Guess what - no-one gets to go to Krishna according to JG because they need a spiritual teacher and he is the only genuine one and he just isn't available and doesn't involve himself. Perfect, so I guess that you can close down all the recruitment/meditation centres and I can go back to Vedic college.

I love this not criticising part - all devotees love this one as long as it is being applied to their guru. Not only did JG never follow his spiritual master's instructions and teach complete contradictions to ACB but he was the first person to start criticising ISKCON too and continually does this and encourages his followers to do this - unless calling people lumps of dog stool and not real devotees is not being critical?

Now since SoI obviously reads here all I have to say is this : You ruined my life, messed with my faith which has been the most constant and precious part of my life, took away the person that I care about, stole from me, threatened me, sent your one eyed goon after me. Given what has been going on on the net and all the discussions that have presented themselves it is obvious that I can make you jump and I love it, I've been doing it for ages and if you think you are one step ahead that is only because I let you think that.

If all you have for me is bullshit and insincere apologies I am soo not interested.

So you are considered a student of JG if you are trying to follow his personal instructions, ostensibly observing the four regulative principles and chanting 12 rounds a day. Let's throw in going to offerings, gatherings, doing Outreach, engaging in service, making donations etc. etc.

Also, you are not to be offensive to other Vaishnavas. First of all, for one who is trying to grow spiritually, you probably should endeavour to not commit offences against anybody. Why just single out Vaishnavas, and why are Vaishnavas generally considered to only be initiated disciples?

At the risk of belaboring the above points, consider this. The initiated disciple who was in charge of the Meditation Center where I lived was, not only in my opinion but that of others, at times, a very bad person who created bad vibes and a scene which many people did not want to be a part of.

The point to consider is that everyone took the crap because we were too afraid of committing offences against a Vaishnava. This is wrong. This is not spiritual life. This is CULT life.

Also consider the following quote from C.S. Lewis, with regards to spiritual life and morality. Lewis uses the word "Christian" of course, but the point he makes is very valid:

"One of the marks of a certain type of bad man is that he cannot give up a thing himself without wanting every one else to give it up. That is not the Christian way. An individual Christian may see fit to give up all sort of things for special reasons - marriage, or meat, or beer, or the cinema; but the moment he starts saying the things are bad in themselves, or looking down his nose at other people who do use them, he has taken the wrong turning."
- "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis

The tendency to sit in judgement of others by JG and the members of his cult really violates basic morality. The funny thing is that JG and his merry band consider themselves Christians when they are not. Further, JG has his followers convinced that he is a great devotee of Jesus but he demonstrates little understanding of his teachings and of Christianity as a whole.

It is sad and absurd but I'm glad I'm out!!

Quote
hoax108
It is sad and absurd but I'm glad I'm out!!

I agree that it is a sad situation and there really is no alternative but to get out. The sad thing is that in and of itself the lifestyle can be very fulfilling, there is a lot to learn and some really amazing experiences that can be had, but the whole guru and guru can't initiate decent people as his representatives and you cant (apparently) get anywhere spiritually without them and the whole cult like atmosphere ruins everything.

By their own teachings it is impossible for a disciple to be as you describe hoax108 and as many others have described their experiences. Did the disciple also happen to be rich? It seems obvious enough what SoI is when you notice the only people JG has ever heard of are those who have $ or are somehow particularly useful.

At the top is about maybe 5 families, 10 at the absolute most somewhat difficult to count since they are all linked together, and linked again through the businesses and politics. Marriages are arranged on an international basis to keep the little sect together.

It just begs the question to me JG doesnt involve himself in who is a student or how the centres are run, he doesnt accept any responsibility or provide any instruction - so why are they bothering to try to recruit new people? Really everyone who comes along that actually believes is going to be let down and quite likely end up with the opposition able to tell how bad the experience was. Why not just hang a "no vacancy" sign on the door?

Jeannie Bishop just so happened to be a founding member of SoI back in April 1977, before she got married and JG is either a liar or he lived with her and several other female disciples for years, including Carol Gabbard since that is what the registration papers say and one has to legally provide their residential address. Chris Butler was on the registration as a founder and director up until around 1999 - what happened, did the others buy him out? Most of the directors have been women which belies his teachings and the Vedic ideals about women.

I stumbled across an online advertisement which was pretty damn funny, especially in the context of the discussion on this message board.

The advertisement was one of those random revolving banner types, so it was not possible to have a link to it, but the guy who runs the company was cool and set the ad up in it's own window so I could post it here.

take a look...
[www.instantcalmness.com]

the ad is supposed to link through to this page, but does not in that link, so this goes to their company...

[www.instantcalmness.com]

well, it had me laughing, and thanks to Matthew over there for setting it up.

I always wanted to see those letters in response to the "Chris Butler, Original Gangsta" article.
Maybee someone has them and could post them here?

"If you like songs sung by cute little critters with a hand up their backsides, you’ll love this."
HA!

"Now, compared to other cult, pardon me, religious leaders moonlighting as musicians, Butler can go head to head with the best."

that's what I call a story. Good job, Honolulu Advertiser.

This is the second email that I received from Jeannie Bishop a few days ago and my response to it, I have not heard back, and considering the content that was just uploaded to the site I doubt that I will.

I just find it interesting that for a religion that does not have an concept of independence at all everyone is independent? :?

Dear Cara,

I hope you are in good health. I'm happy to hear that you want to be Jagad Guru's student and study his lectures, etc. Although I cannot speak for Jagad Guru, or even the entire SIF for that matter, and I certainly cannot speak on behalf of ASM, I again strongly recommend that you immediately begin applying Jagad Guru's instructions, which I summarized in my previous communication to you. I will try to be more clear this time:

Focus on your own spiritual practices. Practice sadhana bhakti seriously.
Do not criticize others who are engaging or trying to engage in the process of bhakti yoga—regardless of the many imperfections you may see in them.
Focus on your own faults, not the faults of others.
In connection with the above, stop engaging in the offensive activities where you so blatantly criticize Jagad Guru and his students on the website you've created. Your first step would be to understand the contradiction between your actions and your words. You have been and are continuing to use your time and energy in a campaign to convince the world that Jagad Guru and his students are untrustworthy, ignorant, or evil people. Yet you are simultaneously saying you are or want to be a serious and sincere student of Jagad Guru. This is contradictory to say the least.
Sincerely apologize to Jagad Guru or any other vaishnavas whom you may have offended in your campaign.
These are the first steps for you to take before your expressions of a desire to be the student of Jagad Guru can be taken seriously. If you take the above actions, then you will find that your spiritual love and happiness will quickly grow.

Cara, I hope nothing I have written in this letter has offended you and I apologize if it has.

Sincerely,

Jeannie Bishop

Dear Jeannie,

I am sorry for bothering you, as I just found out in your last letter that you cannot speak for Jagad Guru, I thought that you were a very close associate of his and in responsible as President for communications.

The relationship that one has with another devotee is very important in determining whether or not they can be trusted, as you put to me being a disciple or appearing to represent Jagad Guru is no garuntee. It would be foolish of me to take any instructions from a stranger who as you point out does not have the relationship with Jagad Guru that I thought they did.

The facts are

1. It is offensive to refuse your service, no matter how others may judge you for taking it up or how difficult it may be made for you. As someone who wants people to know of Krishna it would be contradictory of me in my relationship with Him, which is the most important aspect of my life to think that He put me on the path He did, leading of course to where I am now, for no reason.

Jagad Guru did not stay with ISKCON and nor did he not focus on their faults. It is my understanding that needless fault finding is the offence, not seeing that something is plainly wrong and ignoring it. Scripture and the Lord in the Heart have been contradicted by my experience with ASM/SIF.

2. I do not believe based on the research I have conducted that ASM is a seperate entity, for business/legal reasons perhaps but independence is completely contradictory to KC religion as I am sure you realise. The Doyles/Linsleys are infact very closely related to SIF.

3. I do not know that Jagad Guru finds my website offensive or has any instructions for me. I am not going to assume what he says, if I cannot attribute it to him I will not accept. This same business happened in ISKCON and it did not turn out well.

4. There is no reason for me to apologise to ASM as it was a few disciples there who offended me, not the other way around. They said and I quote that the website does not bother them. If it really does then they should not lie about it. If it is the truth there, and there has actually been no contradiction then the truth cannot be offensive. That you say that it attempts to portray Jagad Guru and his followers in a certain way is not my fault and is an assumption on your behalf. My material is very well researched and documented. If I was telling lies then I would have a reason to apologise.

Ultimately the truth is that I question whether Jagad Guru is still on the planet and whether he is infact anyone's guru at all. Apparently there is no one that represents him. This is a very strange situation and one I do not comprehend a reason for. I cannot in good conscience allow others to be treated by ASM as I was or any other division of SIF, to do so would not be pleasing to Krishna. Perhaps they may act to change their ways so that there was no unaddressed concerns that this is the only means I have of addressing.

If Jagad Guru has instructions for me then I would be happy to receive them. Perhaps you could schedule a meeting with him in Hawaii for a month's time when I would be able to travel there?

Yours Sincerely

Cara James

Of course I understand that some (all?) of what I said in my letter is splitting hairs (sorry I cant think of a less archaic expression for it) one is neither meant to "lightly or blindly accept or ask any questions or apply mental speculation.

I do at times wonder with regards to whether Chris Butler is still living but the fact that they are still holding it together sugguests that he is. I consider that he is cloistered away somewhere in Hawaii in a tinfoil lined room to be a distinct possibility.

I do really believe that the only point of any of the involvement I had with SoI and any of the knowledge that I came into outside of my experience must have some reason IF I am to hold onto any spiritual beliefs. It gets a lot harder.

This is most of an email that I sent out this morning to pretty much random devotees of Chris Butler.

I have wanted devotees to know that I did not come insincerely, I did not want to be important or better than anyone else. I did not ask for or expect to be given anything, all I wanted was to serve Krishna under the guidance of a bonafide guru. I chose Jagad Guru above anyone else who calls themself a Guru because I could hear the Lord in my heart then. I could feel that He was with me. I prayed as much as I could for an opportunity and when it did become available to me I was so grateful. It was the happiest time in my life. Then I found myself being turned away from the centre and judged as a whore for no reason other than friendship, for caring about a devotee who I loved dearly and who was my link to Krishna. The trust that I placed in him and the love I had for him was the most precious to me, I loved him as I loved Krishna. When he hurt me I only wanted to forgive him and stay with him, but I was still forced away out of the only happiness and meaning I have ever had, and without him I can never have it back. If he could be trusted not to hurt me like this again I would do anything, I would know that Krishna approved because living a life pleasing to Krishna could never hurt as his abscence and words he does not mean does.

If I will be damned for what I have done then I will be damned for trying with all my heart to try to protect souls from turning their back on Krishna as there is nothing more damaging than to know Him and to lose Him or turn your back on Him and wish only to forget him. With my only link to Krishna taken away from me I was damned anyway. The fact that none of the devotees I met who try to serve Jagad Guru showed any compassion any desire at all to extend a hand to a soul that just wanted to be with Krishna, a woman who simply wanted to be safe in the situation of serving a husband so that I could be serving Krishna through having a woman's rightful position in life. No matter what I did it was not enough for me to be permitted to try to come to Krishna, it was not enough to convince me that the Lord in my Heart was not Krishna having mercy on me by showing how my life was suppossed to be. In the end I decided that Krishna must have put me onto a path that resulted only in hurt so that I may serve Him by helping others. Perhaps it was because something upset the situation as it was suppossed to be.

I would gladly be wrong but I do not understand for all of the thought and prayer I have put into it how can it be right that I love Krishna and desire to serve Him and yet not be able to go to Him? That when I did go to Him I was turned away by Jagad Guru's disciple who later when I spoke to him said that he could understand the reason for all of the upset and how the situation could be amended but never gave any indication that he would make these amends. I expect that devotees do hate me now and believe that I deserve to be without their association, but please do not deceive yourselves that this was not the case even before I was offensive. Please do not allow such ways to be part of your spiritual lives so that you may serve Krishna even if I cannot.

I have never had the conviction that others have that the beginning of the end is around for Science of Identity. Realistically I feel they are very well established and very rich. With true believers breeding their own followers there could very well always be a clutch of them somewhere or several fragments when Chris Butler dies. If anyone is familiar with the ISKCON guru Kirtananda, what he did, and the fact that he came out of jail to his faithful followers perhaps you will understand why I think that. Considering the long running and widespread mass misconceptions of what yoga and meditation are really for there is no reason barring legislative reforms that their centres may be closed down. Perhaps then they would just invent some method like L.Ron Hubbard did.

There is no good done through breaking up people's families and raising children harshly. No reason at all except for devotees do not like to think and the vast majority of the ones I have met would not know the Vedic principles or grasp the concept of a loving God depicted as Radha-Krishna and how could they they dont even worship Radha-Krishna. They dont even know that it is against their Scripture to worship deities at home without accepting certain standards, they just chant and work for Chris Butler.

I am sorry if they are offended, it would be pretty horrible to feel that you are under attack, but whether they are named or not they would feel the same way about it. They do not have any identities, they are afraid to even serve Krishna or worship a form which they are attracted to without getting permission.

ASM and SoI do not see the need to change at all, they would say I am not qualified to know what they need or do not need, and that is certainly true in a spiritual sense. But there are pretty universal beliefs even in Ancient India about what decent/pleasing behaviour is. There are a lot of things about the world and the way that people treat each other that are just disgusting and it is a step forward to reject them, but then what?

Look at your guru who cannot answer a letter who wants to attack rather than preach. I was just like all of you devotees and in a lot of ways I still am, except that I am out here.

Everything that Chris Butler criticised and left ISKCON for - the abuse, upsetting the public, turning people away from Krishna he is now doing exactly the same. He thought he had all the answers and to this day people that wish there were answers to the situation of ISKCON follow him and now the ugliest truth is that he does not have any. Your disciples maybe your friends thought we will attack and attack rather than ever even try to ask, we will manipulate rather than reason. That is how much they really think about Krishna and how much faith they have in him.

That is pretty much all I will ever be able to think of to say to devotees.

:lol: You try to be a little bit nice to devotees and all and they dont respond to that but they have been hitting the site with a vengeance focussing on trying to hack the gallery - couldnt have anything to do with trying to get their tax return and the documented proof Sid lives with his female disciples could it :wink:

Yeah yeah they wont communicate because they dont trust me but rest assurred the feeling is mutal there. Really you would suppose that if something bothered them so much they would do something about it as accustomed as they are to following processes and all that. :wink:

Zelics the SHIFTY CONSPIRING Car Salesman Gangsta

Mmm, the more I look into Cara's allegations the more I realise that Zelics has teamed up with no other than the KINGPIN HIPPY of used car sales, the man hisself, JUGGURD DOLLAR GURU from Hawaii Main Island.

"Zelig was banned because he broke an important rule of this message board, which is posting under more than one name.

He knew the rules, but broke them.

First he was banned under one name and then Zelig posted under another"

Zelics the man has been posting hisself under false identities, WHEN HE KNEW THE RULES !!! Snaky to say the least. Even more he has a gang of used car salesmen with him, and I heard that R Reed, head honcho of JG USED CAR SALES INTERNATIONAL INC, is one of the gang as well.

What we have to realise is that this USED CAR SALESMEN GANG sell is used car, dressed up as "advanced spirituality". If you peel away the dressings, underneath what you will find is a used car. Luckily for them, most of their members are in the market for used cars. They are so damn lazy and useless, that this is exactly what they want. A used car. Even thinly disguised.

[...]

I hope you are in good health. THIS IS HONK, she doesnt know anything about your HEALTH and doesnt give a PRUNE about it, really.

I'm happy to hear that you want to be Jagad Guru's student and study his lectures, etc. RIGHT, MOO, MOO.

Although I cannot speak for Jagad Guru, or even the entire SIF for that matter, and I certainly cannot speak on behalf of ASM, I again strongly recommend that you immediately begin applying Jagad Guru's instructions, which I summarized in my previous communication to you. YES, WHAT INSTRUCTION MANUAL DID YOU COPY AND PASTE THIS OUT OF.

I will try to be more clear this time: I DONT NEED YOUR PATRONAGE.

Focus on your own spiritual practices. Practice sadhana bhakti seriously. HOW SERIOUS ARE YOU MADAM?


Do not criticize others who are engaging or trying to engage in the process of bhakti yoga—regardless of the many imperfections you may see in them. WHAT YOU MEAN TO SAY, IS THAT I SHOULD NOT EXERCISE THE GOOD BRAINS THAT GOD GAVE ME TO THINK AND QUESTION, AND PRACTISE WISE DISCRETION!


Focus on your own faults, not the faults of others. YES, DO NOT EXPOSE THE LIES OF OTHERS, IS WHAT YOU REALLY MEAN!

In connection with the above, stop engaging in the offensive activities where you so blatantly criticize Jagad Guru and his students on the website you've created. YES, WE DO NOT WANT YOU TO EXPOSE OUR LIES AND DOUBLE STANDARDS.


Your first step would be to understand the contradiction between your actions and your words. YOUR FIRST STEP WOULD BE TO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE AN INSTRUMENT IN THE HANDS OF AN ENTITY FAR MORE INTELLIGENT THAN YOU, AND ADEPT AT WIELDING YOU AS HIS PERSONAL TOOL TO ACHIEVE HIS DEMONIC PURPOSES.


You have been and are continuing to use your time and energy in a campaign to convince the world that Jagad Guru and his students are untrustworthy, ignorant, or evil people. NO, YOU ARE NOT UNTRUSTWORTHY OR EVIL. JUST STUPID AND YES, IGNORANT.


Yet you are simultaneously saying you are or want to be a serious and sincere student of Jagad Guru. YES MADAM, I GOT OVER THE CARROT OF BEING A SERIOUS STUDENT MANY YEARS AGO. YOU ARE STILL CHASING IT LIKE A TRUE DONKEY.

This is contradictory to say the least.
Sincerely apologize to Jagad Guru or any other vaishnavas whom you may have offended in your campaign. I HAVE HEARD THIS WORD OFFENDED AND OFFENSIVE SO MANY TIMES OVER THE CENTURIES. BUT WHAT IT MEANS IS, ACTUALLY, NOTHING. A LAME EUPHEMISM FOR CONTROLLING NON THINKING DONKEYS, COWS, MONKEYS, PIGS AND SHEEP DISGUISED AS HUMANS.

These are the first steps for you to take before your expressions of a desire to be the student of Jagad Guru can be taken seriously. PERHAPS YOU SHOULD SERIOUSLY AND DEEPLY CONSIDER YOURSELF AND YOUR PURPOSES. SERIOUSLY. A STUDENT? OR A DONKEY, SLAPPED BY THE ROD OF ITS MASTER?

If you take the above actions, then you will find that your spiritual love and happiness will quickly grow. RIGHT, SHIT, CRAP.

Cara, I hope nothing I have written in this letter has offended you and I apologize if it has. YES, USUAL PREDICTABLE INSINCERE COPY AND PASTE BOOK CRAP.

We would like the KING of USED CAR SALES to send us a more INTELLIGENT representative (even by world material standards, this one is a real PLONKER). PLEASE!

And Zelic, just in case you think you got away with it, we all know whose side you are on, yes, yes, we do!