Thanks, Jograves, for the Xena quote and keeping this forum on track!

Xena makes some good points about the Monty Python crew and how they made fun of Jesus and God in their movies. I think even g0d himself is laughing at these! I really don't understand why SOI members are making such a big deal out of one small Xena episode. Must be the homosexuality?

Unfortunately, while scrolling through your posts, my eye caught a glimpse of the first line of the mean one's post. *(I have stopped reading the posts of the mean ones as they are way too belligerent)*

Yes, folks, they are still chanting the "zelig is a cult apologist" mantra...

Simply for the reason that Mr. Z wanted to set the record straight on a few minor details (just for the record) they have gotten into this incessant "cult apologist" rant.

Anyone with any sense who has read and appreciated Z's many posts, such as his famous open letter to Chris Butler, his sarcastic ten reasons to join this cult, etc, can understand that he is NOT a cult apologist.

In case you are missing something here, notice the word NOT in that sentence, that's

NOT[/size:f9270b497b]

what part of NOT do you not understand? :?:

And remember this fact: You may think you know more what happened in Hawaii in 1970 than any of us, but the fact remains:

1. We were there.
2. You were not.
3. We have met the cult leader face to face and had one-on-one conversations with the man, as well as being in the flesh at his many lectures, as well as living in a communal situation with many other cult members.
4. You have not.

In fact, we were doing these things before you were even born! :D

Imagine if I was trying to tell my father that I know more of what happened at Juno Beach on D-day, when he was there and I was not! :(

How arrogant I would be!

:arrow: This reminds me of the scene in "The Spy Who Shagged Me" where Dr. Evil is telling Scotty to zip it (www.zip.com)... :lol: :lol: :lol:

This forum is not a competition to see who can be the most ANTI-CULT!
(I think you have won this award already) :wink:

It is a forum for people to post their experiences of being involved with the cult, the dangers of being involved in the cult, the nature and character of the cult leader, etc. :wink:

Don't be afraid to admit that maybe some of us know something that you do not. It will not take away from your status on this forum! :D

No need to post a long and boring rant in reply to my post... I will not read it. I am going away for the summer. 8) 8) 8)

In the meantime, there you go, man, face piles of trials with smiles...
keep on thinking free!

:wink:

[b:aefe812cce]Do you get bad karma for flogging a dead horse???color][/b:aefe812cce]

:lol:
Yes you were doing it before we were born and we disillussioned youth and the children of the cult thank-you for the great work. You do deserve to be immortalised alongside your little banned friends who you continue to give a voice to eventhough they were banned you are such a brave authorative hero.

Honestly Googling please next time you deliver a speech finish chewing Zelig's toenails it's not polite to speak with a mouth full of maha.

Googling,

Your friend was banned for being a cult apologist before I had even heard of this forum. He was banned once again for being a nusiance, a cult apologist, a liar and a fraud.

Your other friend, who had supported Zelig's cult apologist views, was banned for being a nusiance.

Then there is you, returning to defend your cult apologist friends. You admitted you were in attempt to control the views being presented on this forum with these two apologists. Zelig could have easily accepted that others didn't agree with his views on Gabbard but wanted to make an issue of it. Why? Because they weren't the good blind-followers SIF members are. Your arguement was that not everyone agrees but you guys expected everyone to agree with you.

Why are you still here? Just to add unresearched "opinions", insults, lies and not respond to questions asked?

Another lie Zelig told: He recently said that Shanti had jogged his memory about the existence of a school in Hawaii but months before as "Initiate" he had spoken about the school run by Mike Gabbard. Why did he lie? Then he lied about what had occured at the school and changed his story when confronted.

I do not think I know more about what happened in the 70's than you or Zelig do as you are claiming. However I have had association with the cult for many years including [u:a4247b67f5]this decade[/u:a4247b67f5]. I have lived with at least 50 followers and know personally many more including people working in his personal care. I met current international disciples and have heard many more "current" lectures than you have. I was requested to work with Siddha by more than one disciple and have been to his home. I did not feel confident/dedicated/trusting enough to wish to work for him directly. I was learning about the cult and stayed aloof, just enough, to make my own decisions.

However I would be a fool to accept the word of people who continuously tell lies to minimise the bad reputation that SIF are gaining from this forum simply because you were there. Accounts of other people do not match what Zelig and yourself have put forward and your own accounts change as more evidence is presented and confirmed. So I am of a position that you both know a lot more than you are putting forth.

Why is Cara upset? RKd's presence on this forum was the first conversation she had with him since he threw her out of the cult. There was a threat made from his isp retelling a cult directive that violence should be used against her to shut her up. Then RKd said that SIF's prime antagonist "had no fear". What do you think was Cara supposed to be afraid of?

Prior to this she had emails stating that she was going to raped, mutilated and killed. There was even a threat written in filipino stating that if they saw her in person they would see how smart she is. Now she has been physically attacked and threatened to be shot by two different people.

The thing that upsets me is that people who were posing as her friends for many months, who had experience of these threats against her, were involved in trying to protect this evil "religious" cult by upsetting her attempt to expose them.

Having said that I hope you have such a great holiday that you decide not to return.

Wednesday, October 11, 2000

18-year-old
will be charged
as adult

The youth is expected to face
attempted murder charges in
a Sand Island shooting

[img:f2a8f06162]http://starbulletin.com/2000/10/11/news/artc.jpg[/img:f2a8f06162]

By Rod Ohira
Star-Bulletin

Defense witnesses testified Bhima Guru Das cannot recite the alphabet, days of the week or months of the year in order and that the stepbrother he allegedly shot had hired a man to kill him.

But the state portrayed Das as a street-smart youth with access to fake identification cards, living like an adult since he was 16 and mature enough to have unsuccessfully contested a 1998 adult DUI arrest in court.

Das, now 18, was 17 at the time of the shooting in April, and normally would have been tried in Family Court. But Judge Dan Kochi heard 6-1/2 hours of testimony yesterday before waiving Family Court jurisdiction over Das.

Police expect to charge him with attempted murder for shooting his stepbrother, Mahaprabhu Nijensohn, who is seven years older.
"You have to look at how the minor conducts himself," Kochi said in handing down his ruling.

"He was able to operate by himself without much supervision from his parents."

Kochi pointed out that if Das remained under Family Court jurisdiction, he would have been committed to the Hawaii Youth Correctional Facility for less than a year.

"The safety of the community requires judicial restraint beyond 19 years of age," Kochi said.

Das was armed with two guns when he allegedly shot his stepbrother at 1:05 a.m. on April 23 in front of 214 Sand Island Access Road.

Defense attorney Sam King Jr. called William Sabir to testify that Nijensohn allegedly offered him $8,000 to kill Das two weeks before the Sand Island shooting.

Sabir also said he heard Nijensohn threaten and warn Das on the telephone, "You better be strapped," during an argument before the alleged murder-for-hire offer was made.

"I told Maha I'd do it so he wouldn't grab someone else," Sabir said, noting he wanted to protect Das.

Barbara McKenzie, Das' biological mother, testified that Nijensohn physically abused Das from the time he was 4 .

She also said her husband, Jorge Nijensohn, and stepdaughter, Amrita McKenzie, were attacked by her stepson at a Moiliili health food store on the day of the Sand Island shooting.

"Maha told us Bhima is a goner," she said, adding that her stepson says Das stole money from him.

In addition to the attempted-murder charge for the shooting of his stepbrother, Das is being sought for questioning by Big Island police about three other shootings, including one in May at a restaurant in Pahoa.

Honolulu police arrested Das at an Ala Moana apartment on April 26 and recovered firearms and more than $50,000 cash in a safe.

Das is also facing bribery charges related to an incident at the Alder Street detention facility.

Deputy Prosecutor Lynette Lau noted in court yesterday that Das allegedly was planning to escape from the facility and in trying to solicit help, told others: "Don't worry, I have people waiting on the outside. I have guns.'"

The bribe allegedly was offered to a detention facility worker.

[starbulletin.com]

September 17, 2001
The Pen Is Mightier Than The Sword

BY VIDAGDHA MADHAVA DAS

EDITORIAL, Sep 17 (VNN) — Let's test a few pens to see if they are 'mightier than the sword'

The world was shocked on September 11th, when 19 men, willing to give up their lives for a cause, commandeered 4 commercial airliners and killed over 5,000 unarmed civilians, including women and children. A lot of the strength and determination behind their ghastly actions came from a belief among these men that they were going to heaven for what they did. I have a few thoughts on how to deal with this situation and I am asking the help of powerful, clear-minded devotees around the world.

In the past, I have seen devotees attack each other with such sharp criticism, that they appeared to be trying to break the faith of the followers of some other mission. Why not turn this same sword against these militant mulas, fanatical leaders and terrorist cells that are goading uneducated and misguided men and boys to commit suicide with the promise that they are going to heaven? It has been pointed out in the media, recently, that suicide is even condemned in the Koran. Let's get that quote. A Mula on National public radio said that if someone commits suicide, he dies as a non-muslim. But let's enlarge the picture. Let's make it clear that there is no scripture on the planet, including the vedas, that condones suicide for any cause and that the karmic destination for such a transgression is Hell.

Of course, Prabhupada clearly states in Srimad Bhagavatam that cow killing means the end of human civilization. The slaughterhouse industry has also been the cause of untold suffering in the form of heart disease, cancer and hellish consciousness. How anyone can pray for peace without addressing this issue is beyond me.

Srila Prabhupada also states that in Kali Yuga, there will be fighting and hypocrisy over even small things.The amount of hate it took to generate the World Trade Tower tragedy is incredible, but the cornerstone that supports it still remains in the idea that these fanatics have the right to go to heaven by killing themselves and unarmed civilians. Let's demolish the cornerstone of this ludicrous belief with all the spiritual shakti at our command. Let's drive a wedge, crack the wall and inject serious doubts in the minds of these unfortunate, misguided suicide bombers. Let's mobilize powerful religious personalities, including Muslims, to publicly destroy this idea that anyone can go to heaven by killing himself and other unarmed people for any cause. Let's make it abundantly clear that suicide bombers are clearly going to pay a hellish price in the afterlife if they commit such abominable actions.

If someone has any writing ability or any inroads with the media, we should make this truth reverberate all over the world. Although a warrior is awarded heaven if he dies bravely in battle face to face with an enemy for a righteous cause, he is punished if he kills an unarmed person. A righteous King can put a prisoner to death if that person has committed a crime worthy of that punishment. Arjuna was allowed to transgress Ksatriya codes on the direct order of Krishna. But Arjuna is the exception and not the rule and Osama Bin Laden and people like him are not Krishna or his representative.

Qualified and senior devotees(crazies need not apply) are not speaking out enough in the media. We are a preaching movement, but we are not using the media enough to get the message out from a vedic point of view. That sounds like a column for a newspaper or magazine-the vedic point of view. With the popularity of Dipak Chopra and others, there is an audience for vedic culture if you can find a voice that people can relate to. Some devotees already have, but other capable devotees are silent. Srila Prabhupada wanted his disciples to write every day. Start writing and show it to devotees you respect. If it's good enough, send it to the media.

Because the devotees are silent, Christians like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell make inane statements as if born-again Christianity has cornered the market on morality. It's the same bigotry that the muslims indulge in. The media claims that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. What are they doing? What are we doing?

The world anxiously awaits the coming events that will probably effect everyone in the near future. The American government has declared a protracted war on the elusive terrorist underground. American rage is pressuring the president to bomb someone in retaliation. The Taliban is threatening revenge and this could get very ugly, perhaps even invoking biological warfare against city populations. Even the American government admits the difficulty of the task at hand as they appropriate a staggering 40 billion dollars to just begin to deal with a situation that has already cost the American economy over 60 billion dollars.

Let's test a few pens to see if they can be mightier than the sword. Let's do a media blitz that will reach far and wide. I have seen video clips on 20/20 of Muslims in the USA dancing and chanting that "the path to paradise is on the blood of infidels." How twisted is that? It is amazing that this country allows Muslims to form non-profit organizations to collect money and promote terrorism. That's probably over now. But, I think many of these Muslim men struggle with the idea of killing themselves to go to heaven. Let's totally devastate that insane idea and put insurmountable obstacles in their path to entertain such an illusion. Let's kill that criminal mentality.

And, is anyone out there thinking about self-sufficient farms? I am writing this from a farm on the Big Island of Hawaii which is a great place to start a farm because, believe it or not, land is cheap here on the eastern side! Tropical weather is very favorable to grow a tremendous variety of fruits and vegetables. Also, the Big Island is in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and upwind from Honolulu.

We also have a unique situation here on the Big Island with Dayal Nitai prabhu, an old Prabhupada disciple who has dedicated his life to cow protection. He is underfunded, but has been doing this service for over 10 years. Dayal has loaned us a few milkers at the farm here on the northeast coast. So we get the benefit of offering milk preparations to their Lordships, Sri Sri Radha Govindasundar while Dayal takes care of the rest of the program down the hill.

One of the directors of the project here, Saranga Maharaja, directly heard Srila Prabhupada say it was his personal desire for his disciples to establish self-sufficient farms. The movement has generally failed in this area. If things get bad, the devotees are going to be very sorry they didn't try to fulfill this desire of Srila Prabhupada. If you would like more info on establishing a farm here, you can contact me, V. Madhava das at 808-775-9084 or Jagadatri dd or Raghunath prabhu at 808-965-8829.

[www.vnn.org]

[i:5d90faebbc][b:5d90faebbc]Vidagdha Madhava Das - Member of AHAD who helped lead the Xena protest.[/b:5d90faebbc][/i:5d90faebbc]

Dear Google

I think the point here is that Chris' cult was
just as crazy, harmful, & corrupt in the 70's as it is now.
It has been that way from the beginning, and has not changed.
True, it's gotten more sophisticated with the advent
of computers, and more businesses than are nearly countable!

My take on this is that the current ex-disciples that are
working SO hard to expose Science of Identity & Chris Butler,
are trying to "connect all the dots"...
from the beginnings in the 70's up through recent events.
If they can show, backed upped with proof, what Chris
has been doing from the get-go, it makes their case even stronger.
Any genuine information we can give them from that
earlier time era can perhaps be of help.
To give misleading, inaccurate, contradicting, or false information
on purpose, has got to be seen as highly suspicious...
and rightly so.

Yes, sometimes our (my) memories of certain peoples
names, or the exact order in which things happened
may require some real gray matter digging.
For lots of ex-disciples from 20 or 30 years ago,
(and certainly for recent ex-disciples as well)
life involved with Chris' organization was a daily major trauma.
Perhaps some things, we have just simply TRIED to forget.
But, if you were directly involved in projects etc...
you DO remember those events.
If you give an account of a memory, and then later
realize you left something out, or gave a wrong person's
name etc...you can always correct your information.
But to truly forget something happened altogether that you
were involved in...I really doubt that's possible.

We are NOT the elite ex-disciples simply because
we were around in an earlier time frame...
we are ALL ex-disciples, period.
If we do indeed "know something" that they do not,
I'm sure they "know tons of things" that we do not....yes?
These people have certainly put together more concrete
information than I ever knew. Again, I applaud all their
efforts, all their research, and the things they have exposed.
It is no easy task to unravel the spider web that leads to Chris Butler.

If certain people are no longer allowed to post here,
I would think the administrator of this forum made that
decision with good cause. He's been doing this awhile,
and I suspect he's pretty knowledgeable. Plus, there are
forum "rules" stated quite plainly.

I doubt anyone on here is vying for the position
of the most "anti cult".
Getting facts straight is important however.
When presenting information, you want your research to be accurate.

I haven't been posting here lately simply because
I think I may have run out of information that could be helpful.
I will always be happy to answer any questions that come
up that someone thinks I might know the answer to however.

Happy vacation Google. Chill time.

Got a new one for you.
www.yogarevealed.org

Guess who?
Jivan Krishna das

jivan@yogarevealed.org

He's the gray haired cosmic looking one. :wink:

"Jivan Krishna das is a renowned Vedic and Biblical scholar.
His teachings are non-sectarian;
stressing that each religious faith culminates
perfectly in the development of loving devotion to God.
He comes from an ancient disciplic succession of bhakti yoga masters
and with the science of identity, aims to teach any sincere seeker of the truth
the science of self and the secret of attaining true happiness and fulfillment."

The above was cached on Google June 10, 2007
@22:15:44 GMT


They are having technical difficulties
with their web site however.
It comes up & then Internet Explorer
says, so sorry, having errors, shutting down.
I got the above off the site before it crashed again.

Better get to work on your web site Jivan. :oops:

This is the string that is cached on Google
that at least let's you read the quote on
"who" Jivan is before it crashes again.

This is G o o g l e's cache of [yogarevealed.org] as retrieved on Jun 10, 2007 22:15:44 GMT.

I put in a search for Jivan Krishna Das on Google...
and this shows up as the 7th. search result...
simply titled "Jivan".

If you hit that link on Google, you can see a Quick Time
video that is attempting to play...
says it's from the Four Springs Retreat.

Also noticed something under Jivan's email addy...
"rajavidya.org"

Googled that one, and here's what it said:

"RAJAVIDYA.ORG

This page is under construction
All glories to SP

Haribol!"

So, that's another one to watch for in future.

You have described the situation very cogently Shanti.

However whether the group was all-pure and all-purifying and became a nutty destructive cult or was always a destructive cult doesn't really make that much difference in "real-life" if the end result is the same. IF the facts were he became nutty as time went on that would be the facts. I bought into the story they were great as it was being told to me but cracks started to appear. Logic is still a valid assessment tool in my book. We have much evidence that he was intentionally brainwashing people before, during and after his involvement with ISKCON.

But it seems that portraying the cult as pure in the ACB days is much more important to SIF than it is to any of us. As Cara pointed out this period is the whole proof of bonafide-ticity.

How being homophobic is a threat to that I'm not sure as I'm not up on ISKCON guru politics. The fact they have to deal with and rationalize is the encounter Siddha had where he told ACB directly (in the presence of a homosexual disciple) that Iskcon had too many "tillies".

The distortion of truth, that SIF is so vehemently against, is that he simply meant effeminate gay or straight males. Z used the example of one follower who was feminine where Siddha commented that he had a face he would like to punch. I don't see how this position makes Siddha any more respectable since he indiscriminately hated a person's appearance so I don't know where they are going with this.

There are no dates for "Homosexuality: Identity Crisis" but most of those booklets were written in 75-79. It also does not mention HIV at all so it would have been pre-83.

Nowhere else is it denied that IGG held an anti-gay stance and other sources only appear to confirm it and Mahaksadasa who claims to have left hawaii and Siddha's group in 1978 is fully equiped with all the SIF-style anti-gay stances. He also discussed anti-gay political views in his post about IGG.

That link I posted yesterday to this conversation seems to have disappeared overnight (You suck Indiadivine) :evil:

So what is your take Shanti? Was SIF anti-gay in the 70s or just against effeminate males? Are they just pulling our legs?

Quote

But my liberation by my choice was sublime, because it was then that I became a regulkar at laguna, meeting up with srivanivas and gangaram, learning about siddha and goursundara, and planning my move to the Islands. I actually answered the phone when we were destroying the laguna beach temple to make renovations for Srila Prabhupadas visit, and spoke with siddha for the first time.

ISKCON temple Laguna or SIF recruitment?

Quote

When I returned to the mainland in 1978, I went to NSYLB to see if they had any jobs, and all the hipsters I was apprentices with hired me and fixed me up, sending me on a career that ended in 2002.

Now, theres guns accross the river pointing at me, so I gotta run, hare krsna, yo brah, mahaksadasa
[www.indiadivine.org]

That last comment is vague and unnerving.

From yesterday:

Quote

Nishiki ran for mayor of Maui in '76...

...For US house in 76, Kathy Hoshijo ran against Cecil Heftel. Heftel spent over a million dollars to get 3,000 more votes than Kathy, and the hOSHIJO CAMPAIGN COST WELL UNDER $30,000...

Lt Gov? Larry olsen, while John Moore ran for gov. Independents For Godly Government ran a full slate of candidates for many spots, in 1976...

What was I saying about money? They had no businesses the story was he was poor, where was all this money coming from? :!:

And he adds:

Quote

It is not against KC to be vehemently opposed to all ideas of homosexuality. The term refers to practice of illicit sex. Any idea of "mahu" or the ancient "eunich" class of india is a discussion of apples and oranges in modern sexuality discussion. The Hawaiian did not prey on young boys to try to "turn" them, nor did they make a public display of their sexuality.

And since when are the "mahus" a "respected" segment of Hawaiian society. They werent respected very much when I was there, except, of course, on Hotel Streed, by white perverts from the mainland who were robbed by the mahus. I respect the mahus for robbing the pervs on hotel street as well.

The traditional class of people who existed in India for thousands of years and western homosexuals do not sit well with Siddha's blanket anti-gay views.

Ha!

Quote

Hijras trace their origins to myths in the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. Rama, while leaving for the forest upon being banished from the kingdom for 14 years, turns around to his followers and asks all the `men and women' to return to the city. Among his followers the hijras alone do not feel bound by this direction and decide to stay with him. Impressed with their devotion, Rama sanctions them the power to confer blessings on people on auspicious occasions like childbirth and marriage, and also at inaugural functions. This set the stage for the custom of badhai in which hijras sing, dance and confer blessings.

Arjuna the great warrior of the Mahabharata received protection amongst the Hijra for a year and pretended to be one of them. They have their own religion and goddess Bahuchara Mata.

But Siddha's people were much less enlightened:

Quote

Mahak: One evening, a transexual person came and wanted to join the temple. This man had all properties of a female. He spoke to Sudama about his dilemna, and it became Sudama's delimna as well.

Of course, Sudama had no facility for this person, he was unable to facillitate residence because this person was neither male nor female, and could not be housed with either the brahmacaries not the brahmacarinis. But the fact remains that this person was sincerely wanting to be a devotee of Krsna. As (s)he left through the garage, I noticed the expression on the face, extreme separation and disappointment, which hopefully spurred this person on in the continuation of spiritual life. Naturally, the snickering was not worthy of discussion, the other neo-nazi denizens of the garage had lots of demeaning comments, but others, including Sudama, who wanted to talk about his decision, had no joy, no funny comments, just "damn this age of chaos, quarrel and confusion".

Quote

The Gay community was never attacked by Srila Prabhupada,in fact when Ramesvara wanted to start a political action group to attack abortion,Srila Prabhupada told him no,not to get involved in political actions.
Why ? you will only anger a lot of people who oppose your stance,then they will be prejudiced against the Vaisnavas.

Mahak answered around this above response to the statement that ACB supported their political group in Hawaii. Just plum ignored it (as he did with the fallen sannyasi questions on the other thread I posted that was deleted).

Then this thread was closed with the last statement being that Siddha introduces people to Krishna (read: Lobotomizes followers and sends them to toil in his sugar mills) so leave him alone.