:D There's a mystic yogi man on TV -- "Criss Angel"

No doubt Chris Butler will be singing his mystic yoga song again. :(

He displays incredible feats of levitation, mind reading, telekinesis, etc etc. :wink:

However, for Criss Angel to make millions off a TV series by displaying metaphysical and psychic powers -- is this really any different than Sid making millions from teaching yoga postures on a TV series???

At least this Criss does not condemn his crew to eternal damnation when the milk in his fridge goes out of date!! In fact, the fellow seems to be very respectful to all the people he deals with, despite his rather "Alice Cooper" appearance and "punk-style" presentation.

Maybe our Kris could learn something from this angel :wink:

:wink: see y'all at the beach!

_______________________________________

:arrow: PS -- apparently someone has been stirring up the shit on one of these blogs, posting as "zelixandcrue" thus fueling a war that seems to be existing in some people's minds only!

:arrow: McCarthyism - Policy of hunting out (suspected) communists and removing them.... IS THIS WHAT IS HAPPENING ON THIS FORUM??? Hey, people, wake up... this is not the 1950's!!!!! I can just imagine the large assembly with the microphones: "[b:83c30afc1e]Are you, or were you ever a cult apologist?" [/b:83c30afc1e] NO, THIS IS NOT THE 1950's!

:arrow: Apparently there [b:83c30afc1e]are[/b:83c30afc1e] some people posting on this forum who think it is still the 1950s...

:arrow: Apparently there are people on this forum who are trying to reveal people's identities -- maybe THEY are the real cult aplogists, secretly working for the cult so they can come and hunt us down...???

:wink:

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Science of Identity Foundation, Inc.
3890 Araro St., Brgy. Palanan, Makati City
TelNo: (02) 831-6383 / 550-1181 | FaxNo: (02) 831-6383
Email:

Science of Identity Foundation, Inc (SIF) is a non-stock, non-profit corporation which was incorporated and registered with the Securities and Exchange Commission on December 4, 1978. Jagad Guru Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa (Jagad Guru) is the known founder of SIF internationally. SIF generally came in the Philippines when its incorporators meet at a common goal with similar ideals of SIF's Jagad Guru. Activities undertaken by SIF in the Philippines are "primarily of socio-civic nature aimed at alleviating people's suffering and assisting the Filipino in the task of nation building." SIF's activities are significantly carried out through selling and distributing of reading materials that promote SIF's objectives , convictions, and manifestations. Other mediums used by SIF to promote its objectives are through conducting meditation classes, seminars, lectures, and retreats.

[b:e12ac5b6d1]Mr. Nicanor Romero
Ms. Estela Balagtas[/b:e12ac5b6d1]

Perhaps you could think, Googling, as to why I have asked you to let me know what research yourself or Z have ever conducted into SIF and you cannot provide an answer? Phone calls you made, emails you authored, internet searches you conducted, SIF books you have read? What did you find? What information have you posted as a result of these investigation to back up you credible stories, or Z for that matter?

Now since you are directly challenging people on this thread as cult apologists [b:e12ac5b6d1]I am directly challenging you[/b:e12ac5b6d1] (again!) to provide evidence of your input into this investigation as I know that the entire Chriskcon site was not built on your sweat. If you do not have an answer then it is safe to assume your efforts in 2 years have amounted to nothing and will in the future amount to little more and thus you can quit your complaining.

Quote
just-googling
However, for Criss Angel to make millions off a TV series by displaying metaphysical and psychic powers -- is this really any different than Sid making millions from teaching yoga postures on a TV series???

The culpability defence - is Criss Angel any difference to Chris Butler? Oprah has influence on TV maybe she is running a cult too - no of course she isn't, that would be silly - so you see that cults aren't really what they are being made out to be are they. :o Apologetics 101. There are many threads on this forum where by their own assertions current members of cults are pushing the same argument.

Alarmist propoganda - the 50s are coming! what's happening around here? Googling I will be clear - I have no respect for people like you who sit on their arse for 20 years and then with all the secrecy in the world emerge inexplicably to do nothing but subvert the exposure of the cult. Do whatsoever you want, go and get married and look after your kids and have a career, all the best to you - but only someone who is a loyalist to Chris Butler would ever attempt to subvert any action against him - full stop. What is happening on this thread - you are trying to pollute the reality of a situation that really noone but you and the banned members guiding your posts and the cult really care about. Before anyone was NOT named - neither your name or Sungliders names were in those posts - it was you guys that attacked me. Why? Well damned if I know why anyone would want to defend a cult - unless of course they were in it.

Let's try to keep this thread civil and friendly.

Name calling and personal attacks are against the rules.

Yes Z was an apologist. Why was he so quick to defend Siddha all the time? [u:3b25f02f02]Nothing Nefarious ever happened in the cult he said.[/u:3b25f02f02] But whenever anyone mentioned anything nefarious happening in the cult he promptly came to Sid's defense saying, "Siddha didn't have anything to do with that, or he was never aware of that".

How does "he" even know everything that Siddha was involved in?

When discussing the temples being sold Zelig jumped in to say it's not all true and that history is very difficult to convey even if you were there. Well Z was there and didn't wish to elaborate. He said he had personal experience of Iskcon forging letters. How did he experience that? Why would Iskcon forge these ACB letters and in the same letters state that Siddha and the disciples that helped sell the temple were good souls. Fishy. There is no evidence of forging these letters besides Siddha's and Zelig's personal experience of it.

He also points out that the letters that Siddha wrote weren't made public but Siddha's public word was that he only ever wrote ACB one letter. He is full of it and needs to explain everything to the nth degree - like Siddha - and make it so in the end you feel you personally can't know the truth.

There was never any proof that Siddha had been threatened by GBC members and ACB was clearly suprised at hearing such a scheme. The only fact that has been clearly established is that Siddha didn't want to sell books. The threats were a story to explain why he had sold the temples and became a BIG nefarious Iskcon plot. Hari Sauri, ACB's personal assistant, said in his book that Tusta claimed to have seen a letter that Sudama Vipra found that proved this plot, but he was unable to produce it when asked.

There is a story of India when Siddha was in ACB's personal circle when Tamal said Siddha couldn't read a particular book and allegedly swiped it away from him. That is the BIG EVIDENCE of an assasination plot that is repeated on forums, and that was the beginning of the end of Siddha's relationship with Iskcon. What was this, kindergarten?

Z bluntly denied any brainwashing occured until he was banned for it, only to return a month later admitting brainwashing (in a cult that was not all that bad).

Now Zelig was in an Iskcon temple before he met Siddha, he knew the ISKCON drug guru Ramesvara. He also knew who was and was not dealing drugs California. But hey he met Siddha before he was initiated in 1971 and was around when he was still Sai. So his times don't match up for him to even know this.

He stayed at Taylor Camp and had dinner with the Pysche running an experiment there. He stayed in the jungles of Kauai, in Siddha's close personal association, attended personal conversations that only the top two or three disciples were present for. He was there for the selling of the temple and left ISKCON to be with Siddha's group at the end of '73.

He lived at Siddha's house during IGG, held some position in IGG and took some initiative. That is the depth of his involvement shared on this forum.

He spoke personally to Siddha's father and saw personal letters written to Wai in the Philippines. He worked at the Warehouse and knew what went on and that it was a fake organisation.

He sold cookies for the drug rehab/recruitment center that never eventuated. He would have known that Siddha registered the Hawaii Mantra Meditation Honolulu organisation in '73. But according to Zelig there were no businesses operating at this time. What was the purpose of this organisation? SIF's group Hawaii Mantra Meditation was a member of WVA also but I can't find the registration for it.

Z Knew Mike and Carol Gabbard and his school well enough to know what did and did not occur at the school initmately. He knew the rest of the political members - and their fake partners - but couldn't tell us any politicians besides the few already known. He would have known IGG's Mahaksadasa and Babhru Prabhu but chose not to say anything when they were brought up on this thread.

Finally he told two stories of leaving - one where he snuck of without a word to anyone and another where he left freely while only a couple of nobody gossips had gave him any resistence.

Not to mention all the stories he told outside of this forum.

We were very fortunate to have someone who had a hand in everything in the cult but he had surprisingly little to tell. He admitted his goal here was to protect the identities of all the cult members who were all good people. These people were personally responible for staying in a brainwashing cult of all good people where no nefarious dealings were going on and noone ever left due to some trauma. Huh! Besides the cook who personally told you Z that she felt her soul was being drained?


But wait a minute! Z said they had no businesses in '74-75 and Down to Earth didn't start until 1977. Krishna's diety was living in a shed, there were only a few householders in Siddha's group, they ate from trees and had a single storefront recruitment. Siddha was extremely poor according to Zelig and everything was completely kosher and done by ACB's book. At the same time he was giving ACB thousands of dollars to keep him satisfied.

Where did the money come from to hold multiple candidates campaigns in '76? Inluded was John Moore running for Governor, Larry Olsen running for Lt. governor, Nishiki running for mayor and who knows who else was running.

They started their own newspapers, members of Siddha's group were brought in from other states and islands and needed to be accomodated. Advertisements needed to be paid for, signs produced, they had campaign days where they spoke against abortion. They held concerts, who booked the bands and who showed up?

Siddha had his own books he was publishing and giving away for free internationally.

Yet in '74 '75 there was no money. There were no businesses and if they started one it would have taken time before it began to see any profits. Siddha went into Iskcon with 50-100 discipes and some of those stayed in ISKCON, how many did he leave with? Many discipes came to hawaii via the ISKCON temple in LA. Was he using this temple as a recruitment center since two of his disciples were in charge there before he was even initiated?

Why should we not be curious when his disciples were in charge of the temple where the ISKCON drug dealers were. There are ACB letters of large amounts of money going t the LA temple and coincidently text happens to be missing. What is it that they don't want the public to know? It's a nice story that all the people involved were ex-iskcon/ex-sai but that is just a story we are being told with no evidence provided.

Siddha's men were also involved with gurukrpa and rumor has it that he built a gold dome temple for ACB from stolen Japanese pens. At the same time he was sending $60 000 per month of "book" profits to ACB. When ACB asked him to almost double that amount, with his weary cohorts that had a high turnover/burn-out rate, he managed to do so for over 6 months. It's a nice story to tell the kids but we're not buying that either.

Noone is talking. Noone knows or they don't want to say where Siddha's or ACB's money was coming from.

The issue is that Krishna Consciousness lays claim to being a science, it is methodical and dependent on ideals of tradition and succession.

Most of the apologetics and secrecy not only on this thread but on these issues is derived from lingering sentiment and allegiance to ACB. The recurring theme here and among Siddha's followers is that he [u:ef2929f0f2]really[/u:ef2929f0f2] tried to follow ACB, he was the way and the truth and the light and all that. If one sticks only to criticising his disciples and followers than this is acceptable because it doesnt challenge the dogma. Disciplic succession works like dominos, if you knock one they all fall down.

It is a curious thing that organisations like ISKCON Reform Movement (IRM) and Prabhupad Anti Defamation Association (PADA) are both cult activists and cult apologists because they seek to attack certain elements (disciples) while vigilantly - and mostly blindly defending others (the founder and teachings of the organisation which now constitutes the cult) they cannot accept the reality that one would not exist without the other because any discrediting of ACB undermines the entire religion. Krishna Consciousness in the West is a religion built on worship of one man and what his take on ancient scripture was. That Siddhaswarupananda to this day bolsters his own following by his connection to ACB and was actually among the most influential members in ISKCON makes scrutinising him an unappealling prospect to everyone who lingers on the Gaudiya Vaishnava line.

The stakes are getting too high for a lot of people, including "ex" followers of Siddha who are with other gurus or hanging on the fringes. There have been disciples who begrudgingly left after 20 years of watching the abuse carry on, not just casual people who kept some distance from Siddha or came and went, but those in close service. It did not pay off for them - but it still could. There are a lot of forces who would like to control how Siddha is challenged and exposed and all of these attempts at influence revolve around pointing the finger at disciples and presenting that they acted independently of Siddha. That just isnt how it works though, and genuine ex followers know this. The avaiability of information allows for the general public to see this and they stay away from Krishna Consciousness in droves. The solution to this is to open meditation centres and try to put a new spin on it.

There are over 1000 views of this thread everyday and very few of these are posting. The site is heavily monitored and I am sure that the majority of readers have always been cult members. They know exactly what is going on and if they ever make another attempt to bring an end to it they will probably go for even more preperation and intrigue than last time. From not long after I started posting here I have known that the cult reads here. Sometimes it is like living in a cartoon hard to believe that these people are actually for real. I know very few people who genuinely dont want to control what information if any is available about Siddha.

Ex members here really need to be aware of anyone who contacts them through PMs, anyone offerring to tell all that they know, asking questions about who they are but keeping their own identity a secret. That has been the pattern on this thread for far too long. When I came here I got mail immediately from the big declarers of what is REALLY going on here why everyone should get away and not want to talk about it. If I get banned for saying so then so be it these people are cult scum, and they are good at it. In 120 something pages now there is only a handful of real people and most of the real people who share the hope that Chris Butler will be exposed bypass this forum entirely. I probably wouldnt post here except that I know this is the quickest way to say anything to the cult, and I hope that noone will be discouraged or distracted by the secrets and lies.

Rick Knickerbocker (retired) of Fair Oaks paid $500 to the Gabbard campaign. City of Vacaville/ Parks Maintainence

Quote

An account of viewpoint discrimination is that of a California county government employee, Rick Knickerbocker. From TOST, p. 15, here's his story of employee "heterocentric" views costing a deserved promotion in a sexual "minority"-affirming local government:

The Double Standard Applied

Asserting his right to free speech cost Rick Knickerbocker a promotion three times.

Rick Knickerbocker was denied a promotion three times by a California county government employer for his stance against homosexuality. Mr. Knickerbocker had written two letters-to-the-editor of a local newspaper rebutting facts in articles concerning homosexuality. A lesbian co-worker noticed the letters and contacted the city’s personnel department, advising them not to consider him for promotion due to his view on homosexuality.

Mr. Knickerbocker had a positive, eight-year work performance record and received the highest score on a test for possible promotion. However, he was told that unless he stopped writing letters, he would not be considered.

The lesbian co-worker wrote a letter to the editor of another paper and specifically named Mr. Knickerbocker. Personnel declined to take any action against her, however.

[Note: Knickerbocker v City of Vacaville, argued by The Rutherford
Institute (202) 393-7008.]

What Rick found out the hard way, most government employees, in Washington state at the municipal, state and federal levels, are fully cognizant of (because of pervasive tax-funded "diversity training"): views that are not affirming of sexual orientation "minorities" are a career liability - if you have them, don't express them on the job, or off.

[www.e-z.net]

Would he be the same Rick Knickerbocker who was initiated as Ravanantakara das b.?

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72-11-32
Bombay
25th November, 1972
Denver

My dear Sons and Daughters,

Please accept my blessings. Upon the recommendation of
Kurusrestha I have gladly consented to accept you as my duly
initiated disciples. I have chanted on your beads and they are
enclosed herewith. I have given you the spiritual names as
[1]
follows:[1]
Rick Knickerbocker/RAVANANTAKARA DAS B.
Martin Framson/MAKHANA TASKARA DAS B.
Lynn MacDonald/RASALUBHDA DASI
Cynthia Greene/SUDARSANI DASI
Elizabeth Hanks/MADHURYALILANANDA DASI
Now please continue to follow strictly the regulative
principles and rigidly observe the four principle restrictions
and without fail always chant at least 16 rounds on your beads
daily and be happy.

If you stick to these principles with determination, you
will be freed from all attachment to maya, by Krishna's grace.
The example is that when the sun is in the sky, then where is
the question of darkness? Similarly, when Hare Krisna mantra is
vibrating on your tongue, and you are hearing attentively, then
your consciousness becomes clear or Krishna Consciousness, and
there is no question of maya or hazy consciousness. Just as when
the darkness and the light come together, the darkness cannot
stand before the light, so maya cannot remain in the presence of
Krishna. Always remember therefore to chant Hare Krishna and
that will save you in all circumstances, without any doubt.
Hoping this will meet you in good health.

Your ever well-wisher,
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

I typed in "Rick Knickerbocker" into google and came up with the Hindunet.org AHAD Xena protest page but found that they have deleted the entire protest book. Guess SIF wouldn't want those devotee names available on the net. I saved a lot of the names but didn't bother with the whole guestbook unfortunately.

But here is the search for google and the page has been redirected:

"Rick Knickerbocker" Xena

[www.google.com]

The offending page that disappeared.

www.hindunet.org/cgibin/dcguest97/xena/Data/guestdata.saved

The [b:50ed1e4a54]REAL[/b:50ed1e4a54] reason for the Xena protests:

625|Andrzej Bilewicz|18:11:55 3/02/99||Lublin|Poland||Dear Sirs,
I found out, that you are going to produce episod with Xena Princess, in
which you want to place Krishna. I protest against it.
Krishna- the Supreme Personality of Godhead is not a person from fairy-tale.
He is the Supreme God.
That is why it is great offence for all devotees of Krishna and Hindus all over the world to show Him in imaginated story.
This is makim Krishna -the Suprem in lower position.
Why do not you place in "Xena..." Lord Jesus, Allah or Mohammed?
It would caused wide resistance in the world, and would offend all confessors of these religions.
In addition, if Lord Krishna was to help Xena to get back her beloved, spectactors will think, that Lord Krishna and vedic literature [b:50ed1e4a54]support homosexuality[/b:50ed1e4a54].
It is great offence!
[b:50ed1e4a54]The actrees, who plays the role of Xena openly promote lesbian relationships![/b:50ed1e4a54]
By showing this film you can cause, that:<br>-you will offend God Himself, who is called Jahve, Allah, Elroi, Krishna, Govinda etc.,
you will offend millions devotees of Krishna and millions of Hindus,
you will offend the oldest religion in the world - vaishnavism,
your production will be boyctt by devotees of Krishna all over the world,
you will be considered as anti-hindu and anti-religious.
That is why I write to you this letter and I call: Do not do such offensive and unresponsible thing!<br>Do not place Lord Krishna in this film!
Student of Servant of Lord Krishna<br>Andrzej Bilewicz<br>ul. Radzynska 22/22<br>Lublin, Poland

658|Premananda das|11:53:45 3/03/99|premadas@aol.com|Surrey|England|xxx|
This is an extremely thoughtless and irresponsible move on your part, to include Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead,
(about whom you obviously know nothing) and Hanuman (a great saintly personality) in your fictional show
([b:50ed1e4a54]which we also all know is strongly connected with lesbian activists[/b:50ed1e4a54]).
Motivated by greed for more money, looking for a ‘quirky’ new angle for your show,
you’ve completely disregarded the feelings of millions of people as well as becoming most offensive.
What will you stoop to next? Would you have portrayed Jesus Christ in a similar manner?
If you’d done your homework properly you might have realised your mistake.
I think we all agree that a sincere apology to the Hindu and Vaishnava communities is now due
and a guarantee that you don’t do this same sort of thing again, which simply arrogant,
irresponsible and completely disrespectful to others.

I normally can't stand to read the kind of drivel such as the Xena protests, but this caught my eye and I couldn't agree more:

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595|Chis Werry|16:45:46 3/02/99|chris@nz.com|Pittsburgh|USA||[b:adecac1c5a]The protest by AHAD against Xena is misguided, and itself quite offensive. [/b:adecac1c5a]
It reveals the organization to be homophobic, small minded, paranoid, and not just a little bit ridiculous.
[b:adecac1c5a]It argues that Hinduism is being singled out, and states that fictional versions of Christ or Mohammed would not be tolerated.[/b:adecac1c5a]
This shows a pretty poor grasp of American pop culture.
Haven't you ever seen the South Park Episode where Jesus is engaged in a bloody and utterly irreverent battle to the death with Santa Claus? Haven't you ever seen Monty Python's 'The life of Brian'?
Haven't you heard of the movie 'Jesus of Montreal', or the 'Fourth Man', which has a gay man fantasizing about sex with Jesus?
Furthermore, you never explain why Bollywood can produce all sorts of fictional representations of Hindu gods, some not terribly pious, but noone else can.
[b:adecac1c5a]In protesting in this way you run the risk of aligning yourselves with crackpots, bigots and fundamentalists like Jerry Falwell.[/b:adecac1c5a]
Racism is a serious matter, and I have no doubt that Indians suffer from it in the variety of countries they have made home (as well as in their own country - I've lived in India).
I hope AHAD will be successful in fighting it and in calling attention to representations injurious to Hindu culture.
However I would advise you to pick fights that are really important and which won't make you look foolish, intolerent and bigoted.

I also wonder how people who value "piousness" so highly are so strongly opposed to Muslim fundamentalists; after all, "Allah" is one of the names of the "true God" as well.

The belief system changes continually to suit the political agenda of the surfer-shaman.

I apparently don't know how to use the internet but the Rick Knickerbocker protest (cache button):

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762|Rick Knickerbocker|19:59:12 3/05/99|dinak_@hotmail.com|California|USA||To whom it may concern:<P>By portraying Krishna, the Supreme Lord, and Hanuman, a great devotee of the Lord, as fictional personalities, the writers of the Xena show have committed a great offense. The appearance of the Lord and His devotees on this planet are for the enlightenment and deliverance of the fallen souls of this world. Their, existence, words, and activities, are very real, and are recorded in the Vedic scriptures for the benifit of humanity.<P>It is sad, that rather than study the words of Krishna and of His devotees, and learn the truth of their existence, the writers of the Xena show make up stories and attempt to profit off God. Instead of making a mockery of the Vedic scriptures and misleading people, the writers of the Xena show, and all of Hollywood, should study and learn the message of Love of God contained in the Vedas. Then maybe they could use their creative writing skills, which are a gift of God, to in some way benifit humanity, instead of continuously leading humanity into a darker and darker condition of immorality and hedonism.<P>Sincerely, <P>Rick Knickerbocker<br>

It has been a trend on this thread to suggest that the homsexuality became an issue to as a political stunt. All accounts however show that Siddha was homophobic in the 70's and it was admitted here that he was aggressively hateful towards effeminate men early on. The stereotype for centuries is that effeminate men are gay. So I believe there has been a little playing with words.

My theory though is that Butler and his gang of rogues are completely xenophobic which fits in with the cult mentality where everyone outside of the cult is bad.

If you look at his books and lectures from the early days he has ignorant and hateful ideas about all non-SIF groups. Of course there is a list of priority with regard to people they hate; How open they are about it; how it will be accepted by new recruits; the best way to indoctrinate followers to believe their hatred is scripturally justified and "compassionate"; and of course politically.

How this effects politics also effects the group. It is obvious they mold this list of priorities to how the public will accept them. For example in the cult hating cow-killers or anyone who eats meat is on par with their hatred of Iskcon. But Mike Gabbard is not rampantly against the beef industry. He would get no votes. He even led a rally for 'meals on wheels' where the meals he was supporting were not vegetarian. So in order to be so dishonest about their values they actually have supported the cow killing industry. Gabbard was less vocal about his anti-abortion stance and said at one stage that it was a females constitutional right and he had no interest in opposing abortion rather than lose the votes.

So they are lying to the public and contradicting their own religion at the same time.

I remember Balakhilya giving a lecture on a "sinful" gay man on a street corner proudly pushing for gay rights at the top of his lungs. He pointed out the contradiction that members of SIF don't proudly and publically speak about Krishna in this manner. They can't. Now SIF is becoming increasingly insular. So they know their own cult mentality contradicts their religion.

Another contradiction is the fact that SIF teaches Allah means 'all-merciful' and this is their view of how a devotee should be. It is difficult to claim you are compassionate when you are calling for concerntration camps for homosexuals, trying to take all their rights away and being hypocritical that Xena can't write a story about Krishna because the lead character is a lesbian.

They know this so they portray themselves as compassionately anti-gay :roll: as Mike does.

Here is another example of Mahaksadasa lying to support his guru:

Quote

As far as homosexuality goes, the most compassionate writing by a Krsna Conscious Scholar on the subject is by Siddhaswarupananda, so your "dissing" him for an imagined stance he may have is inappropriate, as are your attempt to discredit any "successful ventures" by devotees you may have a grudge against.
[www.indiadivine.org]

This book was a "nice" cult propaganda to subtly state that homosexuality is more sinful than illicit heterosexual sex (hypocritical), he suggests that homosexuality is contagious (falsehood), he speculates about a gay agenda to recruit children and he suggests that bisexuality is a a gateway to having sex with pigs and dogs.

The irony is not lost on other vaishnava groups however:

Quote

6) THANKS MAHAKSA DASA. You seem to be going through one of you mood swings
again. First, you said we have to be tolerant of the GBC homosexual guru
program. Now you say, gays should be castrated, hung from trees until dead,
and tossed off of cliffs. Have you missed taking your daily Zoloft again?
This is always the problem with you guys, first you are driving way too
slow, which is unsafe, then you zoom up to 400 mph, which is also unsafe.
thanks pd
[www.harekrsna.org]

SIF uses compassionate pleas to other vaishnava groups not to criticise them as a person should not criticise a devotee of Krishna, which ignores the fact that Butler regularly criticises other vaishnava groups.

They write off all criticism (such as this forum) they can't dispute as "offenses", "lies" and "gossip" and use this as a moral excuse for not speaking openly with us. But among SIF members offenses, lying and gossip is an olympic event.