Correct Dassi, I'm Mean and have no patience for the lying Dirty Cult Apologists group (we can abbreviate that to 'Dirty Apes').

Wrong Dassi, this point of judgement was made by Zelig to justify the fact that he was judging CR in the absense of evidence that he was making an active and consistent attempt to oppose SIF. If I specifically state why I personally do not agree with someone's criticisms and they continue to do so, I can certainly ask "where is the proof of your convictions to justify your self-righteous attitude?". There is abolutely no ethical principle that obligates us not to mock, ridicule and chastise these individuals.

If however you are saying that random attacks on people not actively exposing SIF are unjustified, then fine, but this has never occured. It's a moronic 'Dirty Ape' tactic to gain undeserving sympathy. Poor you Dassi.

It's very perceptive of you however to point out that someone supporting the 'Dirty Ape' group and attacking the cult activist group is infact a 'Dirty Ape'. That's true and I still don't know where you were going with that.

It is clear that the 'Dirty Apes' have a range of simiar arguments and phrasings to suggest you don't have a mind of your own. Since all the Apes were in the cult during the 70s and 80s means that you all had a decade or two of mind control, years of arrested development, of being stuck in a time freeze and out of touch with reality for so long that your brain cells don't seem to absorb information too well. So I will make it clear for you.

Not only was Z NOT actively researching SIF, he actually posted links to information on a certain cult activist that was not available anywhere clearly showing that he was infact involved in active research into Cara's movements resulting in the 'expose' previously mentioned. Hello, wake up brain cells! The crux of this investigation showed that Cara was and has been involved in attempts to expose SIF. OMG Cara! You had us all fooled :twisted: . Get out of here you sneaky, coniving 'Dirty Apes'. You should all be wearing fake moustaches, trench coats and go loittering in the darkest, dankest alley closest to you.

Further I will clarify that many cult activist sites have information on cult apologists. So you are suggesting that all these activists would be considered wrong and unethical for doing this. So you are condemning a great many of people in the cult activist movement. 'Dirty Ape' of highest level. I think Apes and cohorts need to consider this fact before you post another attack on Cara. :wink: It's hilarious if you have the idea in your heads that any of you will be missed. :roll: I don't hate you but I wonder if you will ever come out of your current deluded situation.

When I first pointed out that there is evidence of Z having a long history of being a 'Dirty Ape' I didn't actually link to it as I foolishly and ashamedly assumed that he would feel like a sniffed-out, lying idiot and would quietly exit from this thread with his head hanging low. But I have given the 'Dirty Apes' much too much credit for they have a far superior standard of moronism than I would ever thought. The Bumpkin's Barfly University's course on "Superior Opinions - That don't require supporting evidence" should have alluded to this fact.

But you know people that don't know how stupid they look in the face of overwheling proof are absolutely the scariest kind of dumb. This is usually attributed to cults like SIF and the people who are currently under it's spell.

Jokes and mocking aside don't come back on this thread if you are part of this break-away cult apologists group and convince your "friends" not to either because being a part of SIF and coming on this thread and pretending not to be a member is surely pathetic as if there is nothing to hide why won't they admit to being a member, the poor dears are in a bad way I feel sorry for them, but to spend up to a year or two on this thread making friendships with other people, posing yourself as part of the fight while sneakily forming a group which made secret attempts to subvert this thread makes you a far lower human being than any current follower of SIF. You are a lot more worthy of exposure so just remember this before you continue your mindless plan.

The JIG was up two weeks ago.

Quote
MeanReds
Poor you googling.

Sticking up for a twice banned cult apologist on this forum and attacking a cult activist does infact make you a cult apologist too. Such is life.

NOT!

Attacking???

I think that is a bit of a heavy word.
(Defending, maybe).
But I don't think I am attacking you.

I wanted to keep out of the mud-slinging arena until things got too ridiculous...
Like when someone said that Z was chris butler himself.
[b:9b6992d9a9]Ridiculous.[/b:9b6992d9a9]
I jumped in to set the record straight...

Z is [b:9b6992d9a9]not[/b:9b6992d9a9] chris butler. :o
Z is [b:9b6992d9a9]not[/b:9b6992d9a9] sudama vipra ex-swami. :x

Who is that masked man? :shock:
Z [b:9b6992d9a9]is[/b:9b6992d9a9] Zorro, the Lone Ranger (heyo, Silver)
Riding off triumphantly into the sunset. 8)

Now, it is common for people in their 20s
that they do not generally get along with people in their 50s or 60s.
And I think this could be at the root of all this.
And I believe the altercation with Z started
with a disagreement between Rama and himself
about Icke
and Lizard People...

Yes, we did play at Tarzan and Jane (thanks, Jo!)
in the jungles of Kauai with bongo drums and all...
And we did enjoy that...
the old hippy addage was:
Make Love, Not War...

Your experience of the cult in Australia may have
been very different from our experience in Hawaii all those years ago.

But we all agree on bigger issues,
e.g. that maybe Siddhaswarupananda is
suffering from mental problems
like schizophrenia, paranoia, narcissism, etc.
that children are being neglected in the cult,
etc etc
and when we combine our reports from the past
and the present
we can paint a good picture of the dangers of this cult.
Let's stay as allies and we can achieve something positive.[/color:9b6992d9a9]

All this bickering and mud slinging will
just strengthen those still in the cult
who already think we are snakes
for posting what we post.
If we keep hissing and biting at each other,
we will just be playing into their hands...

And as soon as you type these long posts
bad-mouthing people like good old Z,
labeling him as a "cult apologist" "troll",
after he has contributed much excelent info and insight
into the cult life and about the leader of the cult
after he sent you the very rare "Sai Speaks" material...

[b:9b6992d9a9]then you are fast losing credibility[/b:9b6992d9a9]...[/color:9b6992d9a9]

And By attempting to reveal our identities
you have opened up the possibility
that some mentally ill person from the cult
can come and shoot one of us.
Remember John Lennon.
Some crazy "christian" shot him
because of what Lennon had said about Jesus all those years ago.

By acting like this,
we can only assume that you are both
being blinded by feelings of maliciousness and spitefulness. :twisted:

And that you drop this subject right away.
Stop the flaming nonsense.
Stick to the Gabbard poltical agenda.
Go camping. Go to the beach more often.
Get laid.
Be happy.
Do not get obsessed with this bad-mouthing business.

:wink: :wink:

Quote
Dassi

Confidentiality is a serious thing.
The fact that “cultr” showed such blatant disregard
For the safety of these people.
Could it be just out of spite or meanness?
Or irrational fear?
I’d say it was really horrible of her giving away
People’s names so they could become targets.

Ex-Dassi

Dear Dassi...
Just wanted to remind you that you have posted on this forum
asking about ex-disciples by their legal given BIRTH names.

Hello!
Someone else possibly exposing people's identity is your big concern???


[board.culteducation.com]

Posted: 03-23-2007 09:02 AM Post subject: HEY!

Greetings from the 6th Circle of Hell !

I'm looking for
Rochelle
Shiva das
Barbara
Trey
Alan
Prem.
Em
LLawrence
LLarrick
Rick
Bridgette
Baladev and Kunti
Avaduta and wife
Mamata
Mukti Patty dasi
Linda and John
Sarai/Sarah
BT
Katyayani
also Sudama
and some I can't remember your names
the chick with the peg leg
the typesetter lady with the red van
the guy I used to argue with on Maui (not one of the Moore brothers)

some are gone

Loved all of you guys.
Wish you all well with or without the chanting!

OMG Googling Ha ha ha!.. Don't you freaking tell me to post information on SIF now after I told you this days ago and was asking Z to do the same. Ok show me Googling. Come on you freaking hypocrite.. You post some information that you personally acquired through your own research.

This is the proof that I was looking for that you guys are not 'Dirty Freaking Apes'. Show us the proof that your brain cells have not completely collapsed in on themselves from making repeated vacuous statements not even formed into proper sentences.

Quote
MeanReds
OMG Googling Ha ha ha!.. Don't you freaking tell me to post information on SIF now after I told you this days ago and was asking Z to do the same. Ok show me Googling. Come on you freaking hypocrite.. You post some information that you personally acquired through your own research.

This is the proof that I was looking for that you guys are not 'Dirty Freaking Apes'. Show us the proof that your brain cells have not completely collapsed in on themselves from making repeated vacuous statements not even formed into proper sentences.

MELLOW OUT[/size:9d39bb4e76]

go to the beach
find a friend to talk to
make love[/size:9d39bb4e76]

PEACE BE WITH YOU
I LOVE YOU ALL!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I'm Mellow already..

Stop being a freaking hypocrite and act as if you know anything about credibility. Cara has put her name to a conscientious effort to expose the cult and faced them in person directly she has far more credibility than you could ever claim. So if you want to hop into bed with Zelig and criticise her then you can quit pretending to be a friend OK? Traitor yes, hypocrite yes, but a friend is not what you are.

Blast (of lies) from the past :

[board.culteducation.com]

Quote

I was a member of this group many years ago, and at that time there was no such thing as eating toenails - at that time it was just a meditation process for knowing God by chanting the names of God.

Flash Forward...Rama is here, I am here, emntk Ash is here all young ex members jumping up and down wanting a revolution and all of a sudden...

[board.culteducation.com]

Quote

(quoting me) Seriously guys, just googling I am sure it was mentioned drinking foot water a while back and I thought it was just his wicked sense of humor. Is this what maha water like the kind that comes in a jar from Hawaii is? Eating toenails - for real??? Man I am glad that I never ate any of the stuff at kirtan that had maha in it.

Yeeeeeooooooowwww... we were wondering if Siddha even knew about the toe-nail eating thing at all ... now we know that HE DID ... I wonder if it was his idea in the first place????

This was directly after I had dug up some scandalous facts from NZ news reports that confirmed there was a major police and fbi investigation.

Now you are worried some crazy guy might come and shoot you? When zelig started all this it was utterly ridiculous that it happened to me, so you dont have anything to worry about now do you? It was you and Z through your constant contact and I am sure that it is possibly around here somewhere posted that SoI are not dangerous??

On Sai Speaks digging up on it that was not the slap in the face to CB that I thought it must have been at the time since letters from ACB reveal that he was still distributing the book years later. I should have realised neither CB or his followers would ever consider anything that he wrote as being bad. I have my own copy of Sai Speaks thank-you. To sugguest I owe anyone considering what I have dug up?? Please. I give thanks to who deserves it. Before you were trying to make out that someone was funding Chriskcon - who would that be?? Besides me noone, it doesnt even cost money for the hosting because it was donated in support of the cause. Blithering about my credibility - it is only you and a couple of people on Zeligs chessboard that have the problem. There are 6 billion people in the world you know.

Lizard people is it now? Please just make up your accusation and put it, you are always shifting the goal posts which is just a transparent attempt to keep the argument going, disrupt the thread and that is what you want.

I do not know Rama Ranson who posts here. For all I know he is really a figment of cyber imagination. It would be a bit weird for a guy the same age as me to be wandering about wanting to kick ass at the same time.

Dassi wrote :

I’m not even certain of the efficacy of what
You are doing anyway.
Just seems to alienate a lot of good people.

Efficacy : capacity for producing a desired result or effect; effectiveness

Back on theme of alienating good people - ie people within the cult and people who not only do not contribute to exposing the cult but who actively seek to undermine the effort to do so.

The lobby here by zelig and his defenders has been that the focus should be on the people in the cult, they should be considered and mollicoddled above and beyond potential recruits. The reasoning being that facts and referenced ones at that and accounts of former members who have more potential to be taken credibly on account of being recent leavers and being open about their identities - which is not a slight against aliases btw but an observation of it does away with the cults first line of defence - this person doesnt want to put their name to what they are saying, we cant respond to it - which they would most likely do by attacking your person anyway and trying to overshadow the issues. Incidentally this would be a very good reason to attack and discourage someone who has exhibited a willingness to provide a voice for others without them having to come forward directly.

Confidentiality is not in my control - of course it is assurred because noone has to tell me their names and most people dont at first anyway. Then people who get to know me make their own choices about that. On your advice jg I spoke to my friend this morning, like I do every morning and he said that you are an idiot. This is from an ex member that doesnt doubt my credibility. Does that prove anything - not to me, but it matches the calibre statements you have made to challenge me, so maybe it evens it out.

If you want to conceal your identity then you shouldnt post so many clues to it and then reveal yourself to be a challenge to my cause not because you dont agree or have a different opinion or what info you put forward but because you remind me of someone who I thought was my friend in the cult and who turned out to be the biggest liar I have ever encountered and that sort of betrayl of trust, the slimy motives and inhuman malice and stealth required to do such a thing deserves to be exposed. You have had your go at slandering me and attacking my credibility, you gave me no choice but to examine yours so that people can judge for themselves. If they come out thinking I am the bad party then fine you win.

Noone can control what others believe and this has been accepted by me in unambigous terms many times over. Hand wringing at the rights of the people within the cult and what about their right to believe in what they want to believe is another key tactic of cult apologists. The stated intention has always been to prevent people from joining the cult. It is in the introdction to the Chriskcon site that the most valuable weapon that Science of Identity has is it's secrecy.

Those who look into any of the organisations associated with SoI or the facts about Chris Butler have the opportunity to see the alternative to what they present. They have the opportunity to apply critical reasoning to the research and references provided there and determine if they want to be involved. Those who are already there know what goes on, being influenced by co-ercive tactics and thought reform techniques has eroded their critical reasoning ability. That would be an entirely different effort, an effort which zelig attempted to undermine before it even began by trying to alledge false affiliations with an unnamed KC organisation (because there is not one) and manufacture distrust to undermine the effort which had not even been commenced by claiming again with no foundation that Chriskcon which has no preaching or links to preaching or religious websites is a pro-Krishna website - knowing as he would the sectarian nature of SoI and the severe paranoia towards other KC organisations.

So if there is anyone at all who is to blame it is Team Zelig who based on the total of their contribution to the effort, and balanced against their willful destruction and opposition is service to none other than Chris Butler - but what better way to subvert cult activism than by trying to create a focus on followers and then convince anyone that will listen that they are good people who are not really at need of being saved and should be left to make their own decisions and mistakes and that there is nothing all that bad about the cult with misty eyed sentiment and thank-yous published to Chris Butler alongside spitting in the face of his opponents?

Chris Butler has made such a song and dance about how the interests of a spiritual master is not to recruit followers and that he is not concerned by the number of followers that he has. To act now to ensure potential recruitment (which he must really want or there would not be so many covert recritment centres or he would at least tell people to eat his toenails up front so that they could run off) would only add to the volume of evidence that he is a hypocrite and give current followers something else to wonder about.

Every piece of information here offerred by the apologists has been extracted rather than offerred and knowing the extent of the trolling now with hindsight only in response to being put into a corner by having to offer something to maintain their facade. There are many examples of direct questions being asked to obtain supplementary details to the subject of the discussion such as why does JG need to have 35 meals served to him a day and what is the kitchen or the warehouse like which would never be answered. It really was a masterful attempt because all the sensational details revealed are actually nothing which cant be obtained through research. Even the toenail eating is attested to in a document in the posession of the NZ police and subjected to Freedom of Information.

In the "great letter" by Zelig he makes several references to child neglect and abuse which presumably he was aware of, being the high ranking disciple that he was in close personal contact with Chris Butler and how dare others act as they do? Perhaps if you can produce evidence D[b:10b9ff541c]ass[/b:10b9ff541c]i that the people you are admonishing turned a blind eye to child abuse than the "shame on you so" piously delivered will be heeded. As a matter of fact I travelled all the way to Brisbane at significant expense to make a statement regarding my knowledge of the abuse and neglect of a child and the children in the cult in general. That is not others taking the right to judge others, that is the common fact of decency and obvious lack thereof.

Quote
just-googling

MELLOW OUT[/size:e5f1fc2fc6]

go to the beach
find a friend to talk to
make love[/size:e5f1fc2fc6]

Oh yeah sure if I mellow out you will yell she's a stoner that cant be trusted

If I go to the beach I am not here to defend myself and answer to your increasingly wild and far fetched allegations and silence would sugguest that I cant be trusted.

If I talk to a friend I will either be conspiring or associating with devotees of another guru and cant be trusted

If I make love I am a slut which opposses the moral standards of devotees and which was the first bit of slander against me and cant be trusted :lol: :lol: :lol:

Google my dear...

Do you really think that if I say, oh look...
Jivan Krishna das really is John Scott Moore,
that Science of Identity is going to send someone to shoot me?
Really?

How do I know this information about John?
I said loud & clear...
I was there, I was his wife...any questions?
No thugs at my door.
And it doesn't take a rocket science to know "who" I am.
How many wives did Jivan have???
No one has asked me my name...but it's not a secret.

Over the years, Jivan issued may "warnings" to me...
if I should do anything to interfere with his service to his spiritual master (Chris)...
like have his wages garnisheed for back child support ;)
Alas....bluff called.
He wound up paying his back child support...to TWO wives,
thank you very much.

I can understand if you don't want to / are uncomfortable
with finally saying...okay, this was my initiated name,
or here's my birth name. That's up to you of course.
Privacy should be TOTALLY respected if desired....
most especially if you are a 'civilian and not involved in any business,
or politics with Chris.
But if you were, all ex-disciples are fare game then as far as I'm concerned...
they are part of the information trail to Chris.

When I first posted on here, and someone suggested such a thing....
that we were way vulnerable by posting on here...
I broached that issue on this forum...are we SAFE, or not?
Everyone wrote back...yep, safe.

If you really and truly were an old-guard disciple...
we mostly know "who" one another is...yes?
Especially those of us involved in the 70's - 80's.
There weren't that many of us at the time...
with both Kauai &/or early Honolulu, experiences.

What do you think we could possibly say more damaging about Chris,
or the Science of Identity, that's not already being said here
by more recent ex-disciples? Things that would expose him any further,
to bring it to a point of endangering ourselves with assassins coming to our homes?
We know the old dirt, they know the new. Dirt is dirt. Our stories just
back up it's long-term existence...i.e. from the get-go.
These new ex-disciples have more balls (excuse the expression)
that we ever had when we left.

Yes, we got to run through the jungles naked in Hawaii...
yes, we got to hang out with his Guru-ness...
but these poor babies just got totally screwed with no "benefits, no fun aspects", at all.
I don't blame them for being in "I'm totally outraged" mode, what so ever.
"Watching video tapes from some old surfer dude"...
doubt we would have joined up under those circumstances.

To tell them to just go chill on the beach,
get laid, have fun...that's not gonna get it honey.
We have a new generation here...
they are vocal, they have computers, they have access to information,
and they are not going to go away.
THEY are the answer Google.
They can help bring Chris Butler & Science of Identity to it's knees.

We may not always indentify with their brashness, or their super vocal out pouring,
but they are here, en masse, and their will shall not be denied.

Please help support their efforts.
Their language & approach may go against your grain a bit...that's okay.
You and I, we are old hippies...this is a new generation.

Quote
cultreporter
Now you are worried some crazy guy might come and shoot you?

This is a total over-reaction. If you posted his pic the cult would deliver to his house a bottle of holy foot-water and return his life membership card for acting with their best intentions in mind and not being a rat.

Oh perhaps
I should have said that
In disjointed sentences
In order to be understood
[b:1b5bca5116][i:1b5bca5116]With the occassional emphasis thrown in[/i:1b5bca5116][/b:1b5bca5116]

Just like

How.. ah

Guru deva Siddhaswarupananda

Speaks!
Listen to this for too long
And you brain.. Ah

will develop a hemorrhagic cyst

[b:1b5bca5116]And now I feel like yelling at one of my devotees [/b:1b5bca5116][/size:1b5bca5116]

Do you understand this? Hmmm...