When you joined Chris' cult 35 years ago, or however long it was, you got to be part of a close knit, loving community who probably thought they were changing the world, along with saving their own souls.
(And the added bonus of playing me-Tarzan-you-Jane in Hawaii.)

15 years ago, someone wanting to join was denied the dubious boon of actually meeting the man who they would have to worship blindly to save that same soul, and saving the world was not an issue that was openly admitted, at least to the uninitiated, and the form that world-saving would take was definitely not something revealed to a supplicant before they made the big commitment.
Hey, but God was still on the altar, and the community was still there, right? Sort of?

Nowadays, from the mouths of "those who know", there is no "group", no community, nothing to join; if you want any part of it, (and according to "them" you're a karmi, a neophyte, and a moron if you don't), you're supposed to just shut up, chant, do Yoga asanas, and listen to decades-old lectures by some surf-dude you'll probably never get to meet, (but you're a jackass if you question; just shut up and chant?)
Where's the pleasure in that? Sounds to me as if all they have left to peddle is fear.

Is it any wonder that the kids and the recently deceived would-be Krishna devotees are pissed off and feel cheated by the "old guard"? You don't even get to run wild run free in the jungles of Kauai nowadays, but the price is still the same, right? Blind faith, total submission, and unquestioning devotion?
(Oh, and keep your freaking mouth shut, too!)

I think that Science of Identity Foundation's homophobia and anti abortion activism comes from the teaching that "sex is for procreation only."

Think about it.

This is similar to Roman Catholic teaching and may be why Mike Gabbard considers himself a Catholic now. And why Mike Gabbard is comfortable with the Roman Catholic Church, after all those years with Siddha.

If "sex is for procreation only," and if that is a pretty strict teaching, then homophobia and anti abortion beliefs come out of that naturally.

Another thing that comes out of such teachings and principles is a concern for "tithers." "Tithers" are people who are members of a church, religion, sect or cult who are expected to make regular financial contributions to the church, religion, sect, etc.

Allowing followers to engage in homosexuality or permitting abortion, means fewer "tithers."

The Catholics and the fundamentalist Christians figured that out long ago.

If my memory is correct, Mr. Butler and his Science of Identity Foundation followers went on an anti abortion campaign, before the anti homosexual crusade. It may even have been before "Independents for Godly Government."

I found posts on the web that indicated that His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada knew of Butler's plans and activities and approved of them.

I believe that "Monkey on a Stick" mentions that people around Prabhupada were urging him to get ISKCON involved politically in issues like abortion and homosexuality. It may be that he wanted to see how Butler and the Science of Identity Foundation did before ordering wider involvement.

Who is "WE" Googling? Yourself, sunglider and Z.

So let me get this straight Googling.

Firstly you have spent most of your time here putting in occasional quibs and jokes and I haven't seen you posting links to relevant information on the cult and neither has Z. Sunglider has as much as said that research into the cult is unimportant. Uh huh.. I'm noticing a theme here.

Name one cult that has ever been affected severly by a constant barrage of wit Googing. I'm sure that Butler loses much sleep over your posts.

You are openly admitting here though that there was an attempt to control what is said and posted here by you and someone else that the forum was not aware of. Thanks for filling us in and tell us more sounds quite subversive.

You are now attacking Cara's credibility for pointing out how "destrucive" this cult is.

Let's just say that when someone comes on this thread and says that their family won't communicate (due to an order by Butler) with them anymore and shows themselves to be devastated by this and a couple of posts later Z turns up to say the cult is not all bad there is definately something amiss here.

When Zelig's telling Cara to fear violent retalliation from the cult yet they are not all bad he is an idiot.

When Zelig and yourself describe a "Warehouse" with metal detectors and armed gaurds and Butler has an escape hatch that leads from the back of his home into the jungles and Zelig says it's not all bad, what kind of people besides criminals do this? This screams "what are they hiding?"

When Zelig says that Siddha humiliates his followers on whim, pairs them up in phony legal marriages, and you say that he forces people on fasts from sleep, food and water shows you have a high standards of "destructive".

When Butler sends out doomsdayer faxes requesting followers to buy guns and Zelig says it's not all bad I have to wonder how bad things need to be before he would admit it.

You guys don't want to portray the cult as an insane doomsdayer cult that has been engaged in illegal activities right?

If Zelig was so open and accepting to differing opinions and methods, as he paints himself, I can't see how he would be so interested in repeatedly criticising Cara. He continued up to the point the thread became a slinging match. It shows that he along with Sunglider and yourself made a clear attempt to dictate her behavior as she has pointed out. I'd be less than grateful.

Poor you googling.

Sticking up for a twice banned cult apologist on this forum and attacking a cult activist does infact make you a cult apologist too. Such is life.

And not to mention that "exposing" someone else while shielding your own identity which goes towards explaining what all this mud-slinging is about makes you a hypocrite. Indeed I was so looked after and so supported while I was in Tweed Heads that I slashed my wrists with a box cutter on 24th April which I may have already mentioned, and I shouldnt have to since that nor not wanting to marry some old [...] guy just cos he asks has diddly squat to do with SoI. Maybe Pearl Harbour jumped to conclusions and forgot how to send an email. At least this thread has solved the mystery of why if these were the guys that thought themselves too good for the cult there is so much anecdotal evidence of long-term female followers becoming lesbians :lol:

Quote
atheist
I think that Science of Identity Foundation's homophobia and anti abortion activism comes from the teaching that "sex is for procreation only."

Think about it.

This is similar to Roman Catholic teaching and may be why Mike Gabbard considers himself a Catholic now. And why Mike Gabbard is comfortable with the Roman Catholic Church, after all those years with Siddha.

It is very curious that not only Mike Gabbard but many members of SoI feel an affiliation with the Catholic Church. Certainly they are the strictest Jesus worshipping denomination regarding these issues, and they are also the most patriachial - another similarity to Krishna Consciousness. Many churches ordain women now and some even permit open homosexuals to join the clergy. A political motivation is likely to also be the dominance of Catholicism in other countries where SoI has a strong prescence, like the Phillipines and Poland. Mike Gabbard certainly courted the Phillipino vote since there is a large popuation of Phillipino immigrants in Hawaii.

You make a very good point about tithing. In the Bible there is a passage called Mosaic Law, which is so strict that it is not adhered to today and the reason given is because it was writtten specifically for that time and is not reevant today (much like the spiritual master will appear according to time and place reasoning applied to contradictions in scripture within KC) Historically homosexuality has often been accepted as existing in tandem with gender, a view that prevailed until the 1800s in England - ie submissive homosexuals were simply considered to be different kinds of women, a female soul or psyche in contained in the wrong body, and were assigned the tasks of women which were not considered as useful as having a man around. Lesbian women were assigned the task of being men which was considered useful and the reason why you will never find any admonishments of lesbians in scripture.

A curious point about Siddha's views on homosexuality is that I have heard him say and I am pretty sure that it is in Re-Incarnation Expained that Christians dont really worship Jesus by following the Bible since most of the Bible was written by Paul. The only clear reference against homosexuaity is infact in Corinthians which was written by Paul.

Another curious point about oppossing abortion is that a child who is born being abused is contibuted to their karma and one is said to have so many breaths assigned to them prior to being incarnated which determines the length of their life, but abortion is somehow a theoretical loophole?

More likely at the time abortion had a massive role in the women's liberation movement with many radical feminists actually advocating that it was a women's right of passage and there being some sentiment of pride attatched to having had one or even more. Women's independence and equality is completely at odds with KC. Maybe a sign of the times? Certainly the less women that followed the feminists way of thinking and therefore would find KC unappealling would mean less tithers though.

ISKCON policy on homosexuals is pretty well still non-existent, there are openly gay people in ISKCON, there was some controversy that they were going to recognise same sex unions, I am not sure what ever happened with that. ACB said that sex is sex without drawing a line.

I would recommend the book The Devil's Party - a History of Charlatan Messiahs by Colin Wilson for anyone who is interested in getting a concise and informative introduction to the nature and behaviours of cult leaders.

Butler's emphasis on sex is a curious thing - especially on practices which the vast majority of the population have never and will never engage in and which may not even realise exist except for listening to one of his lectures.

It was quite laughable to me to be told "My son will grow up in a better world - he wont even know what a fag is" Anyone ever met a kid that can sit and listen to an adults conversation where the word fag is mentioned over and over and not say Dad - what's a fag??

The "Danger : Child Pornography" booklet by Jagad Guru - not generally available goes into specific vulgar details about sexual acts performed on children which beg the question where did Jagad Guru get this information and why would he want to repeat it? I dont think that it is assuming too much to say that the vast majority of the population is digusted to hear the simple statement some people have a sexual attraction to children and not be digusted enough. Can a graphic narrative really benefit anyone's spiritual life?

Re-incarnation Explained and Who Are You both delve into beastiality and incest and various fetishes and comparisons are frequently made comparing consensual adult sex to animalistic acts and eating vomit and even marriage the sanctity of which all of SoIs political candidates have fought to maintain has been referred to as a man taking a prostitute.

Could hearing nothing but JGs teachings not have the effect of totally desensitising his followers to sex and lead them to the mentality that it is akin to an animalistic act that has no connection to emotion? Is it possible this could provide some of the reason for the bed-hopping and polygamy and high divorce rate within SoI?

Oh great.
Get rid of Zelig and all your troubles will go away.
Not.
You guys are talking more about him since he’s gone
Than when he was here!
Easy to kick an effigy, eh.

Googling was here long before Zelig
And he gets ‘hate bombed” too!?
What?
Goog’s not allowed an opinion here?
He’s contributed a lot of information
On this forum
And a lot of much needed comic relief.
He’s always been friendly to EVERYONE
And kept the forum on track

now “cultreporter” and “[b:b33f6f191c]Mean[/b:b33f6f191c]Red”
flames him and other guys
And reveals their names and locations!?
Why do that?
For what purpose?
Thanks to RR, that got deleted.
But how long were they up?
Zelig was right then.
There is no guarantee of confidentiality.
Now are you going to publish my name too
Because I defended googling?!

I haven’t been posting on this site
Or the other chrisKcon one because of all the craziness.
It ‘s really negative now.

If you were serious about the business at hand
You wouldn’t spend so much time
Going off on people who have sincerely been
Posting, supporting you,
and have suffered under the cult too.
Shame on you.

You have no right to judge others
On what they do or don’t do
Nor do you have the right to dictate
How people should deal with the cult of Sid..
I’m not even certain of the efficacy of what
You are doing anyway.
Just seems to alienate a lot of good people.

I want it on the record that I no longer support
Any of the people involved in Chriskcon, Cultof butler,
or any other incarnation they come up with
In any way, shape or form.

Confidentiality is a serious thing.
The fact that “cultr” showed such blatant disregard
For the safety of these people.
Could it be just out of spite or meanness?
Or irrational fear?
I’d say it was really horrible of her giving away
People’s names so they could become targets.

You gonna chase me down
and claim I am a dirty “cult apologist” too!?

I’m outta here!
Ex-Dassi

Another one crawls out of the woodwork to defend zelig spouts the same lot of insubstantial bs throws out their jugement while declaring how dare you judge and scurries off.

No-one here has posted a rational or factual pro zelig stance yet - here is a self confessed liar and cult apologist - who lauches an expose on me which he cant back up attacks my credibility based on my alledged and fabricated person and then carries on as if some injustice has been perpetrated? In his posts the projection is clear, noone accussed more people of being trolls and told them they had no business posting here than zelig did and what was the other thing that really got on his goat? Talk of conspiracy. Well we know who the troll was. But I digress trying to apply reason to the unreasonable, which I know doesnt work.

There is a whole gang of posters that have fluffed around here on other threads without any pattern of interest and are suddenly experts on this thread and big zelig fans? How stupid do you actually expect people to be? Umm what would people who were out of the cult for twenty years be doing talking about it everyday anyway? You just decided one day for the hell of it to google your old gurus name and see how things were getting along and join a conversation where you have no facts to contribute and no research to present and oooh it just happens to be around the time that someone is making some noise that Chrissy doesnt like?

Dassi claims to have been there for twenty years and when she was asked does she want to write an account of her experiences the response was "I really have nothing to tell, although yeah it definitely was a cult" People that were going to chants as casual fringe members have more to tell than that.

Zelig didnt give me his name - I simply put it together from all the bits of information he has thrown out - I am good at that. I had no idea of the identity relating to what upset him either, if not for his long and loud protests and accusatory conclusions I wouldnt have realised how important it was.

Notice how noone who was alledgedly there has ever identified the photos in Sai Speaks, Who Are You or Re-incarnation Explained? The latter two are still being sold - it is not only me who may pick out who was and who was not a follower and when.

If you have nothing to hide and dont feel that it is right to scrutinise other people's identities that beget motives then you should use some other source to make your arguments hmm? I dont have anything to hide and I dont care what anyone thinks of me personally, the only thing that I care about is my work. The post that was edited didnt have a name in it but the cult apologist page on Chriskcon surely will and if you want to boycott the site in protest please by all means, its not as if I get paid per click or that ex members are in need of information, I can stand by what I do.

Quote

I want it on the record that I no longer support
Any of the people involved in Chriskcon, Cultof butler,
or any other incarnation they come up with
In any way, shape or form.

Blah de blah I want it on the record that you never HAD anything to do with Chriskcon or were you ever invited to, nor as googling has tried to claim again without proof - but who needs proof anyway has anyone provided any financial support for Chriskcon and to imply that www.cultofbutler.com is another incarnation is just trying to cast aspersion where there is none, it is another domain name for the same site and easier to spell for journalists that dont get the ISKCON reference anyway. You must be getting low on the old credibility mud to sling.

Chriskcon is for serious people that actually want to act and who support the truth. You wouldnt like it there.

Here are a couple of facts that genuine readers may be interested in. I was approached by the secret element who propositioned that I start my own cult, forget about exposure of anything theology related because it makes KC too messy and difficult to market and go toe to toe with SoI. One only has to look at the wealth of JG and what SoI has accumulated to see what there is to gain from any such initiative. I also have the orders from JG about how to deal with this Cara problem and have seen up close what extent the cult is willing to go to. Idle slander on this forum is nothing at all in comparison. Anyone who obviously enough questions would SoI have anything to do with something that would appear to be competition for them should know they most definitely would, SoI has run shadow cults of Golden Earth and in Australia at one time ran themselves as Church of the Mystic Christ - which was only uncovered by revealing that the individuals responsible were disciples of Chris Butler. Its a lot harder to get away with this sort of thing when someone is getting about naming disciples :wink:

SoI has pretty well tried everything to suppress the truth about them, they will stop at nothing to do this which is what I anticipated. I also anticipated that most of the people here would be cult since they never post anything of substance and only exist to shit on what is of substance and reminisce about the good old daze and quite frankly because there is not any one else at the moment that has a vested interest in criticism and exposure en masse enough for this thread to get 1000 views a day. Most people dont even know what SoI is.

I would have started with the tactics of distraction and false friendship, although I appreciate that it is appearing now because the last ditch bottom of the barrel hope this makes you top yourself approach that is part of the obviously observable progression of opposition lets on how desperate times are and that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. :D

Okay some visual comic relief is here :wink:

I wasn't around chanting, nor in Hawaii, when
the IGG was going on, so I personally don't know much about it.

In doing a Google search for the IGG, I found this article.
It's from The Maui News, Sunday, December 12, 2004.
The article is mostly about Wayne Nishiki, who is very
well known on Maui and was politically active for years.

Here's is an excerpt from the article...and I must also add...
only in Hawaii in 1973 would someone do da kine TV ad :D
I can just see it...it's TOO funny!


"Even as a member of the Independents for Godly Government, there were no sacred cows for Wayne Nishiki.

Nishiki was aided by a slick - and expensive - media campaign coordinated by Reed.
The most memorable ad featured a sword slashing the mark of Zorro across the television screen,
with the Z then dramatically tilted onto its side to form an N for Nishiki."

TA-DA!

For the full article here's the link:
[www.mauinews.com]

[u:1f111896d0][b:1f111896d0]Cult Apologists
What you should know about cult defenders[/b:1f111896d0][/u:1f111896d0][/color:1f111896d0]

[www.apologeticsindex.org]

This is a very long and extensively referenced article, extract :

Among the most dangerous challenges to the work of cult apologists is the testimony of ex-cult members (apostates). Therefore, cult defenders claim that apostates can not be relied upon to tell the truth

Attacks on their critics

Increasingly, cult apologists and their defenders spend much time and energy attacking their critics, while refusing to deal with the issues their critics draw attention to.

Dismissal of brainwashing/mind control theories

A second serious challenge to the work of cult apologists is the fact that people sometimes can be influenced to do things that go against their nature, rational beliefs and common sense. Cult defenders vehemently oppose brainwashing and mind control theories.

Cult defenders also tend to misrepresent the anticult- and countercult movements (as well as invididuals within these movements). One way they attempt to marginalize or dismiss these movements is by - ironically - misrepresenting their beliefs and practices.

Lying

Some cult apologists go a step further. For example, on a Christian mailing list, one amateur cult-apologist with a particular interest in defending Jehovah's Witnesses - theologically, a cult of Christianity - blatantly lied in response to a statement I made.I wrote:

The vast majority of anti-cult and counter-cult professionals support freedom of religion. What we object to, however, is physical, mental and/or spiritual abuse.
Source: Anton Hein, Message to CHRISTIA (bit.listserv.christia), Feb. 4, 1999. Message ID: 36be9da6.45499933@smtp.xs4all.nl


Mr. Hardy's response:


The problem is however that there is no proof of such abuse. Rather people like you attempt to manufacture it to sustain your cottage industry.
Source: Barry L. Hardy, Message to CHRISTIA (bit.listserv.christia), Feb. 5, 1999.

It is somewhat ironic to hear a law student lie by suggesting someone he disagrees with manufactures evidence. Sadly, there is of course ample, documented proof of cult abuse - much of which is documented throughout this site.

A Troll's Brain[/color:1f111896d0]

(picture is too big to post here)

[mosquito.25.free.fr.nyud.net]

Concern troll: Noun, derived from "internet troll." A more subtle beast than your standard troll, this species posts comments that appear to be sympathetic to the topic being discussed but who, in reality, wishes to sow doubt in the minds of readers. In a 2006 New Hampshire Congressional campaign, a Republican staffer resigned after reports that he had posted to liberal blogs claiming to be a Democrat who thought the party should give up on the race.

[www.time.com]

I just got back from the VRWC Institute for the Study of Liberal Insanities, and have a research paper which indicates that the severity of sub-rate trollism is due to not only the bad in-breeding, but also to effects of the troll's personal hygiene on their already weakened minds. There are two major categories of bad Troll hygiene: the feces wearing/eating troll, called the Shit-Eating Troll and the non-bathing, patchouli oil wearing troll called the Hippie/French Troll.

This toxic combination of extreme body filth and extract oil from a patchouli flower (which is grown using sheep dung) assaults the nerves in the nose used for the sense of smell, over-stimulates and deadens them. In the process of over-stimulation, the nerves send random and high voltage pulses to the already weakened brain and tends to scramble the part of the brain used for reasoning and rational thought. In addition the toxic fumes given off of their bodies, is breathed into their lungs (which are generally larger due to constant screeching and whining) and these toxins flow to the brain and enlarge that portion of the brain that controls the masturbational and booger-eating urges. The extreme frequency of masturbation and booger-eating causes even more brain damage and the insanity cycle never ends. The only hope for these types of trolls is to catch them in the early stages, bathe them and subject them to hours of Ronald Reagan speeches to strengthen their minds. If not caught in time, the brain damage is permanent and death by over-wanking or being smothered in the local dump is usual after a couple of years from the day of their last bath.

[mrminority.blogspot.com]