I posted here a month ago but didn’t follow up on my info, the reason being that I still care deeply for the people in Sacramento(Uddhava dasi +). They took me in off the street, when I was addicted to alcohol and going nowhere, they took me into there home and gave me a chance at fixing my life, I don’t follow chris butler anymore, I know that he is a bad guru, he is misleading and way too secretive and tells his desciples to sleep with pistols under there pillow, I don’t doubt caras story of child abuse and brainwashing ,I think she is doing the right thing and I give her props for standing up to these people. Cris Butler takes people who are looking for god and exploits them, he is probably just a sad old man who got caught up in a world of power, he figured out that he can get what ever he wants just by telling people what they want to hear. But the bottom line for me is that when I was down and out and bumming on the streets, smoking meth and drinking myself to death, they took me in. When I was living at the Sac center, they treated me with more respect and understanding and compassion then anyone else in my entire life, and I am forever in dept to them. If any devotees from Sac are watching, I love you all so much but I can’t fallow this man, you know I have good reason not to trust him, and I think that you should start questioning his “mission”. Please, just open your mind to the possibilty that your entire life of devotion could be misplaced. I was only involved for 2 years and when I finally accepted this it was emotionally shattering, I can’t even describe the pain I felt, praying 8 hours a day with all of my heart and being, crying in my room because I knew it wasn’t true, because my spiritual master was just a salesman on TV.
Cara, you and you sister are awesome and you helped me in more ways then you’ll ever know, but not all devotees of butler are evil and melicious, some of them are the most beautiful kind hearted people you could ever imagine, I know you know this, that’s why it’s so painful, I’ve been watching this thread almost everyday and I think you and your sister and rama are probably the only ones worth reading, you’ve felt the sting of believing in a false guru, you said that all you wanted was to be pleasing, then I guess like me you realized that with butler this is impossible. I haven’t picked up my beads once since I left, I haven’t looked at my pictures of krsna but can’t bring myself to throw them away, I’ve been so fucked up in the head and I don’t know what to do, I love these people but I hate there guru.

Freeatlast, I am sorry to hear that you are still hurting - you obviously do have a very kind heart. Even without the rituals of spiritual life if you feel that Krishna is in your heart then of course He is there and you still have your relationship with Him.

Science of Identity is corrupt on so many levels. It is easier to expose and find a tangible fault with the politics and the business and the material aspects but the spiritual harm that it does. Chris Butler takes Krishna and a spirituality which is beautiful - who everyone who joined up out of choice was attracted to and manages to create aversion and pain rather than a chance to grow spiritually and experience the bliss that he is always promising is there.

You are right that not everyone is malicious. I was shocked to find out how some of the people that I knew were capable of behaving - never imagining that spiritual people could be like this. Reading your post I remember what it was like to cry myself to sleep every night. By the end I was not eating, couldn't sleep. I had become so afraid and as much as I cared about someone who I thought cared about me there was in the end nothing that I could do to help him. Even now he is acting out of hatred towards me that is so hard to understand, but then I just remind myself that he is worshipping Chris Butler - and that is how it goes. I do not hate or am I angry at any individual - it is the organisation that they are a part of and the behaviour, some of which is clearly deliberate and premeditated by the zealous and 'higher' disciples and that which is just part of the sad cycle of having been misled, sad and afraid.

Many devotees still have kindness in their hearts, as you say they helped you and that is a great thing. Their downfall is just that they place Chris above and beyond all else. This man who has no time for them, who lies to and abuses and misleads them when he does outranks their own children, husbands, wives, friends and themselves.

I am very happy if you feel that anything I have ever done has helped you, that is what it is all for. In this life Ash is Brendon's sister, but we are as close as sisters and call each other sisters, so that is very sweet of you to see us as that. He has renounced his family a long time ago when he became a devotee and it is definitely his loss.

There is some good news for the good fight - cant post about it just yet but will only be a matter of days now.

To any devotees that are reading this, regardless of your affiliations, the aversion to what you see as politics is only aiding Chris Butler in driving people away from Krishna. He is claiming to represent Vaishnavas and it is obvious that he is just making it up as he goes along and pursuing his own interests. Those who are misled in believing that he is God cannot help but be turned away from spiritual life. All Maths, Spiritual Masters and devotees are being tainted by association despite the fact that you do not endorse him. I speak to a lot of people and I hear this over and over again. I have heard that there is concern for speaking out because people then see a devotee in Vedic dress in public and react badly to them and have a negative impression. It is not the revealations that we make that cause this but the actions of Chris Butler. We are trying to help people so that this does not happen and it would be good for devotees to get behind this. Surely spreading the truth is better than shielding the lies. There has been practically no opposition to Chris Butler and the results of this speak for themselves.

http://krishnafriends.com/profile.php?id=485[/color:6d981eda7a]

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freeatlast!
I haven’t picked up my beads once since I left, I haven’t looked at my pictures of krsna but can’t bring myself to throw them away, I’ve been so fucked up in the head and I don’t know what to do, I love these people but I hate there guru.

Just a thought, if your only experience of KC has been with CB followers and teachings then you have most likely been thoroughly indoctrinated with how evil and fraudulent all other devotees are. I was in an ashrama when I was a teenager and have chased after spirituality since I was a little kid and the time I was with SOI still thoroughly crushed most my ability to be open and comfortable associating with other spiritual people. Because I missed this so much eventually I started to seek out other devotees again and like most things CB says this is just a lie. The sectarianism of SOI is extreme and not at all typical. There are a lot of bhaktas particularly on-line that have no affiliations and no agenda that are just trying to learn and serve. Yahoo Groups is one place where you can meet a lot of different people and talk about spiritual life if you feel like it. If you ever want to communicate with me and/or Ash my pages keep getting shifted but my profile is on Krishna Friends now.

The most damning lie that CB tells on a spiritual level is that you cannot have a spiritual life without a spiritual master (ie - himself) At the same time he says that God is in control. :? You may know or find out that there is a reason that you came into his association and some good will come out of it.

Rama is the best at talking about this sort of stuff. I remember I had the worst day since I left SOI having to come up to Bris about the child abuse and ten hours with detectives later in a dingy cafe checking out my emails to pass the time I got this link from him.

[bernie.cncfamily.com]

I want to receive clearification about the relationship between Narcissim and this group.

[img:610ff1ad4c]http://xc1.xanga.com/0068223b08d08108038312/z76608233.jpg[/img:610ff1ad4c]

Stock up now - the not if but when of bird flu must be getting awfully close. [/color:610ff1ad4c]

SOI must be getting like going to a really lame party thrown by your best friend - how soon is too soon to just slip out through the back door?

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forum
I want to receive clearification about the relationship between Narcissim and this group.

Also posted today by forum on the What is the diference between a cult and a new religious movement thread...

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Many of us seem to judge too recklessly even though it may be new movement thinking it is a cult. I think what Jesus said on the Sermon on the Mount is truly a great teaching that he said not to judge others. God is the only judge and the time will tell itself.

You can flick back a few pages and see the specific definitions of Narcissism posted already or pretty much any page on this whole thread.

This is a man who claims to be a pure devotee and has done since he was all of 19 years of age, who always had to be at the top in his spiritual pursuits, the one placing himself be worshipped even when he had no knowledge or quaifications, who changes an ancient philosophy to justify whatsoever he does who demands to be waited on hand and foot by his disciples, lives a lavish lifestyle and sits benevolently by feeding people his toenails. The slightest thing that goes not to his liking and he throws a tantrum like a little girl that dropped her lolly.

If you have a specific defence for Chris Butler or want to debate that he is being misrepresented I for one would love to hear it.

Who are we to judge? For a start Chris Butler would say that your Bible quote is irrelevant because he is onto the "so called Christians" as he calls everyone that claims to follow Jesus but himself and for a second thing most of the posters here have been there and seen for themselves. CB followers also use the same argument that you have put forward - it is pretty much a cult standard of crying freedom and oppression. It only works when you believe your own doctrine to be the sole purveyor of the absolute truth. I dont recall Jesus ever saying not to have standards or common sense.

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just-googling
Do we have it on tape when Butler is asking his followers to commit suicide when he dies so that they may follow him? I'm sure this is not on any of the public lectures and probably on the "in-house" recordings that they are guarding the public from listening to.

Yes unfortunately noone has gone through their wardrobes as yet to find any of old lectures they might have lying around that might be of use to use us. We have a few so far and a bit of info on the web of actual nutty things he has said which we ill be making available eventually. Bare with us. I took a couple of weeks off spending time on the cult but the last week have been doing a lot of work: So don't feel too cozy SOI lol.

As for this statement I do not remember any other mentions anywhere of individuals commiting suicide for anyone but a spouse either. I've only really heard it with regards to females also.

The funny thing is that Butler by saying this is admitting that his own attachment to his spiritual master was not so great but we knew that already. Let's hope that if a situation like this ever arises that members of SOI would keep this in mind.

Hi Freeatlast,

What you are saying I could agree to that there would be good people in the cult and many thoughtful decent people thinking that SOI says a lot of truth and holds many worthy values who would find it a place where one can belong.

The same was said about ISKCON when in the 60s and 70s that they helped to get a lot of people off drugs and offered shelter for those who needed it. It's a little ironic though that ACB used to associate and exchanged publicity with those public figures who were the biggest infuences in creating a wide-spread culture of drug use and abuse.

We could suggest that it is not the people of SOI or ISKCON that are the problem but the corruption in the system stemming from those who are in power. I think however any member who is using and promoting a corrupt cult, regardless of their intentions, are hurting people.

I do feel great disappointment like you say in that I at a young age offered my life, mind and body to a cult due to believing that Chris Butler was a compassionate person teaching people how to be free of suffering. Now with each new piece of information that shows to me how dishonest he is and how his group doesn't even stick to his own principles I feel more and more disgusted with him and his group. The lies they tell to get people to completely surrender over their entire lives is utterly dispicable. I wonder if the Sacramento SOI are actually honest about their organisation also. It would be difficutl to believe seeing all the ads for SOI on the net offering meditation saying nothing of what the respondent is really getting theirselves in for.

When I first got involved with SOI I also knew a person who was stuck in a life of drugs and depression. They felt suicidal, directionless as life had no meaning and were highly desperate. I taught this person about CB's so-called 'meaning of life' which dramatically changed their life forever. Now although they are off the drugs they are now stuck in a new opiate. At the time I also had the best intentions seeing this person suffering so much but now I wonder how much better off they really are. Perhaps had I not said anything they would have killed themselves or they could have sorted out their issues and been happy. All I know is now they are stuck in the cult like my brother too, who I also convinced to become a member, and are suffering greatly. So I look back in dismay that my actions were the source of someone else's misery. Not to mention my own misery as I still do have my own issues from being in the cult so many years ago.

For you to have an id 'freeatlast' gives a sense of relief that something making you suffer is now gone and it is obvious that the effects of that suffering are still lingering. It doesn't matter how sincere a member of SOI is in helping people the result is the same. I hope that you do come on and tell us your story. Regardless of how nice these people are their actions certainly are not the desired outcome.

And thanks for the support.

Hmm I have been wondering why this site [xeniux.blogdrive.com] (with it's most interesting messages) exists.

Obviousy it was started up to put an entry on this...

[www.sourcewatch.org]

A sort of Wikipedia deal. It is the top ranking site for JG on line (for now) this thread tops it depending on search terms used and is always at or near the top.

Have a look and decide whether it looks like a propaganda deal by devotees to you as well.

Speculatory discussion on the group, unsubstantiated claims put forward by individuals with questionabale credentials[/color:a1dc46b25e] (thats us!!)

and refers to "Let Us Reason Misnistries" as a cult

All of the links predate JG's internet ban. It was as if someone was really concerned about minor articles going out on the net and tried to round them up, downplaying the negative.

Of course being a wikipedia deal means that it can be edited - by anyone. Far as references go it is a waste of space but now you know.

Of course the forum that talks openly about JG has lasted for two years. The one that devotees started uo couldn't last two weeks before difficult questions were asked and it is apparently abandoned.

Over the past few months I’ve been trying to hold my tongue after reading the outrageous posts on Chris Butler—supposedly from people who claim that they were his students or disciples.

As one who has been and is presently a student and disciple of Chris Butler for over 20 years, let me state here for the record that the vast majority of the stuff posted here about Chris is complete nonsense. Actually a lot of it is even worse than nonsense—there are many blatant lies and falsehoods, which have been obviously posted out of maliciousness in a clear attempt to make Chris and his students and disciples the objects of hate and ridicule. Furthermore, what’s most disturbing to me is that many teachings which Chris is strongly opposed to have been put forth as teachings which Chris believes in and advocates. It appears to me to be a well thought out campaign of disinformation by people who have some kind of twisted personal agenda.


Anyway, I couldn’t hold my tongue any longer. By the way, if anybody believes the countless lies and distortions of truth which have been posted, I have some land in the Antarctic which you may be interested in buying.