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emntk
If SOI wanted to clear their reputation and state that anything said on this forum is untrue they are perfectly capable of that. If there was no attempting to convert followers and someone signed up to state that the organisation which has a multitude of businesses, whose reputation would be affected by such publically available information, is innocent of any wrong doing such as neglecting their children that would be perfectly acceptable with the rules of the forum. ....

So I think we should let the organisation whose representatives are in the best position to provide evidence or information regarding the validity of this thread. But I think their silence and history of secretive behaviors and not being transparent inside the many branches of the Science of Identity is the best evidence of all.

Excellent points. Their silence is puzzling from a logical perspective. You'd think they would want to at least promote their businesses. ???
But because they are at the whim and behest of a paranoid, delusional man, who can predict the end game? Is he willing to sacrifice his organization, businesses, and followers to hide his head in the sand? Yes. When you think you are the infallible teacher of the world and G0d's best buddy; you can do anything. Pope Butler doesn't even have cardinals or bishops to keep him in line! Tusta, Kat, Brahmanatirtha, Sudama are all gone. And he has the money to sustain his world while cutting his losses.

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zelig
Heh, heh :lol:
Really got me going there.... I am now doubting the veracity and authenticity of this Living Force blog. When they repeated obvious 'blasphemy' --- something a SOI person wouldn't do --- unless really young... The reason I asked if her parents knew is because they would discourage engaging in debate. Who knows....? If it is not a real blog, then at least it seems to represent SOI philosophy.

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cultreporter
You doubt the authenticity and veracity of everything and ultimately your contributions to this forum are the reason why so many of the people that actually want to see Science of Identity exposed decide to leave and don't post here anymore or got banned.

Ouch! I find these comments very odd, because I have been a major critic of SOI and a cheif supporter of your efforts! Rick Ross is the one that banned people, not me, and for good reasons. Yes, I am guided by a personal ethic that questions everything. A question is not an opposition, only a request for proof or clarification. I also hold a high level when it comes to the burden of proof. I don’t believe in falsely accusing people, even if it is an enemy, without evidence. I also don’t believe in hurting innocent people still in the cult. I don’t believe in the credo, “by any means necessary” to attack the cult. I think that there are ethical and judicious ways to expose a cult without being suicidal about it. Rick Ross exposes cults and is able to do this with minimal personal loss. He maintains a robust and well monitored forum and wins in court. He maintains his credibility. It’s a good model to follow. That’s my opinion. If people leave the forum over one man’s opinion, then it is their choice. I refuse to be disingenuous.

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cultreporter
The best trolls are the ones where you don't know they are. You can go back over this thread and before the digging really started going you were saying there was nothing to find. Then you try to minimise everything that is found and brand everyone as trolls and information as false and run interference through the PM system.

You are incorrect. I have been straight forward from the beginning. All I offer are my words, experiences, and opinions. An opinion is just holding a different perspective on the same issue. I respect your opinions, but don’t always agree with them. I have always been clear that from my perspective, from experiences gleaned 20 years ago, that I did not personally have any knowledge of many of the things you have suggested (e.g., drug dealing, ISKcon connection, et al). That is my testimony. I won’t lie, make up stories or stretch the truth to make the case greater or to please anyone. That said, it doesn't mean that your theories are not true, only that I had no experience of them during my tenure in the group. And it is true that much could be hidden from the followers. But, as I have said before, even without a huge conspiracy theory and toe nail consumption, there was enough, there IS enough evidence for me and others to know that it is a damaging cult.

Because I have questioned or could not confirm some of your theories and advised caution, I have been accused privately and publicly of being a troll, saboteur, of still being brainwashed, and worse. Rather than taking my questioning in the spirit it was given; to encourage you to prove your hypothesis with more research, to gather more evidence, you have instead attacked a friend.

I have neither minimized nor do I have the power to run interference on anyone’s efforts to expose SOI and Chris Butler. My whole concern was for your safety and longevity. I was sad to see your blogs go away --- twice. Advertising your every move and location seems unwise. If you want to catch a cockroach you don’t turn the light on and watch them scatter into the cracks out of reach! I do believe that certain members of SOI have a potential for violence. I have only advised that you take care of your health, get a lawyer, and work in stealth. I also advised you to guard your credibility and be cautious of information being given by ‘the enemy of my enemy” and people with agendas.

You and Ash have provided quite a lot of formidable evidence against SOI and followed a lot of their paper trails. I’m looking forward to more fruits of your labors. But, I don’t have to agree with you about everything you believe, either religiously or tactically. We do part ways on the issue of not respecting the privacy of non-public cult members. (You have even asked me to keep certain things about your life private, which I have respected.) It is not just for their right to privacy, but also for your own protection. But if you want to invite litigation, then so be it.

I see this forum as a place for people still in the cult to examine the experiences of others and give them good reasons to reassess their membership. Attacking and exposing non-public cult members will just make them cling more tenaciously to the group. If your arguments against the group come off as unreasoned, exaggerated, or underhanded, you help no one leave the cult. And people will be less likely to come forward to give you information. Focus on the head of the snake. Stick to the facts. Again, that is my opinion.

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cultreporter
Ash, Rama and myself are the only ones that have been here with our real names

And your point is what? You are the only three on this or any other forum I have been on that use their real names. That’s your choice. It makes no difference in this context, in the context of this forum which is to discuss the ‘Krishna Group in Hawaii’. There are plenty of good reasons why people want to maintain their privacy and it is not always nefarious. You don’t respect this, fine.

I wish you well in your endeavors to expose Chris Butler and SOI, by definition, a dangerous cult. Anyone can take the time to see where I have encouraged and promoted your research throughout this forum. To think otherwise is beyond belief. It is counter productive to flame someone who has been so supportive of your efforts.

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just-googling

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zelig
A few questions to ask ‘Living Force’ [www.xanga.com]
and all SOI CHILDREN:

19- Did he not name himself Jagad Guru?
20- Do you know what the word ‘narcissism’ is?

For those SOI children without a formal education:

[b:2ff94a3e39]NARCISSISM[/b:2ff94a3e39]:[/size:2ff94a3e39] Tendency to self-worship, absorption in one's own personal perfections.

After reading his bio and seeing his full-page picture on just about every other page of his book "WHO ARE YOU?", I think this word definitely describes Chris Butler.

:x

The word narcissism comes from the Greek god Narcissis who fell in love with his own reflection. According to Greek mythology, Narcissis was the son of the river god Kephissos. He was a vain youth, who spent most of his time languishing by the waters, staring at his own reflection in abject self-adoration. At length, dismayed that he could never love himself enough, he pined away, and for his arrogance the gods changed him into a flower, which still bears his name.

Me thinks that it is going to get awfully lonely up there on your pedestal Zelig.

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Rick Ross is the one that banned people, not me, and for good reasons.

Yet I notice that you are the first person to start pointing at people and calling them trolls, issuing challenges - which I believe that you call questioning to others to prove their validity when you yourself hide behind an alias. An alias which by the way is from a Woody Allen movie

The title character, Leonard Zelig (played by Woody Allen), is a man who has the ability to change his appearance to that of the people he is surrounded by. For example, if he is among doctors, he transforms into a doctor, if around overweight people, he quickly becomes heavy himself. Zelig is called the "human chameleon". He is first noticed at a party by F. Scott Fitzgerald.[/color:f9898d8da0]

[en.wikipedia.org]

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Yes, I am guided by a personal ethic that questions everything.

And where is this questioning when people present plausible theories? You outright dismiss this could not have happened, that could not have happened, there are good people there. Plausible theories I might add which are increasingly backed up by evidence despite the detractions (distractions?) by yourself not to look in such directions.

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I also don’t believe in hurting innocent people still in the cult. I don’t believe in the credo, “by any means necessary” to attack the cult.

As Cara already stated there are no innocent people. You are trying to discredit her in your words on the subject - you are doing her work no favours. There are ignorant people - but ignorance is not an excuse. To stay in Science of Identity (and I indcit myself here) one has to be prepared to turn a blind eye to a lot of things. These people that you allude to as being victimised are the ones that will take up arms for Sri Guru so to speak that will attack and aim to discredit those who are trying to expose the evil of Sciene of Identity. The most valuable weapon that Siddhaswarupananda has is these faceless masses that are all too ready to do his bidding. As was said the most that anyone who is truely innocent will suffer is a bit of embarrassment and may wake up to themselves.

I saw the corresspondence from Siddhaswarupananda regarding how to combat this criticism, particularly Cara - who had the first ever website criticising Science of Identity. She is the first human face to stand up and say that this is not right. Rightfully she should be the poster child of salvation from Science of Identity and exposure of Siddhaswarupananda. She is the Nori Muster of Science of Identity (I know that Sulocana das is an admirable figure - but Narasingha forbid)

I can say that there was a detailed dossier of Cara made based on whatever was known about her which was transmitted to Siddhaswarupananda's assistants. This is how it goes. Knowing that she is very compassionate it was decided the easiest and cheapest way to discourage her would be to appeal to her not to hurt innocent people. You are echoing the corresspondence of Siddhaswarupananda exactly, subtlely yes, but evidently. Attempts are still being made to discourage her and they will increase. Science of Identity has been criticised before, but this is certainly new. Rama is also considered a major "security risk" I hope that the two of them are in touch and despite their distance are sticking together.

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I think that there are ethical and judicious ways to expose a cult without being suicidal about it.

Again references to Siddhaswarupananda's instructions and "suicidal" the favourite reference of those who leave as in committing spiritual suicide. She has done the right thing location wise. There are political devotees that will protect her if needed and support her. If she keeps her head up and does not live in fear it makes her a more difficult, not an easier target. They cannot touch someone who has a profile and where questions will be asked. Attempts have been made to intimidate her from being in the area. Your references to roaches are irrelevant. True if you turn on the light they scuttle - but you do not go to Antartica to hunt elephants now do you? Have you never heard of bait which attracts them - fly paper?

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Rick Ross exposes cults and is able to do this with minimal
personal loss.

All respects to Rick Ross he is an expert in his own way but to say that he exposes cults in my opinion is misleading, and not a claim of his own making. Rick Ross does not research and dig like Cara does. His archives are made up of already reported material. Rick Ross educates. They are two different people with two different agendas, both very important and complimentary to each other, but requiring different tactics and approaches.

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cultreporter
Ash, Rama and myself are the only ones that have been here with our real names

And your point is what? You are the only three on this or any other forum I have been on that use their real names.

The obvious point is credibility. privacy of others is one thing and it is a matter of choice - that has never been refuted in the post you were responding to - and I know for a fact has always been respected.

Cara and Rama are well known to the Science of Identity. They have the capacity to make a difference. Ash is a bit of a mystery - but she is obviously very dedicated and talented. I do not know Ash's personal story but Cara and Rama have a great humanity and nobility about them. If I may offer a sugguestion to Rama if he is still reading you have every reason to be angry and without wanting to be presumptious I am sure you have been hurt very much because of Science of Identity. Cara is an excellent writer and very good at networking and organising and Ash is an outstanding researcher. If you could team up with them to get your experiences out without the anger over-riding then you would have a lot of impact to a wider audience - if this is what you want. Perhaps you are a good writer yourself, but it is too emotional for you to deal with. No criticism intended. It is good that you are expressing yourself honestly and in a human way. You have taught me a lot and you are young enough to be my son.

:D Now I will know what kind of flower to offer :D

Maybe a new name change is in the works:

Siddhanarcissinanda Paramahamsa :?:

:D

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zelig
I found this in another area on the RR Forum. I couldn't help but see many parallels between SOI and the Rajneeshies. They had their Sheela and SOI has their Shreela! And she's running free too....

Rise and fall of rajneesh video

[youtube.com]

Yes, there are quite a few similarities - especially the congregational chanting with guitars.

so Sheela poisoned the food in the restaurant with salmonella so that the people would be too sick to come out and vote??? Now that's really crazy... much worse than sending in a fake prostitute to tempt your political rival... Jagat Guru could learn a thing or two from this Sheela character. The video mentions at the end that she is now living in Switzerland - no doubt she ripped off the life savings of many followers and now lives like a real Queen Bee... what a destructive cult this was!

the only difference is that Rajneesh followers wanted to build a city for themselves - but SOI followers would never have enough money to build their own city - JG would use up all the money for his own mansions - none left for the followers!

:!:

I just found out the ratings I put on the xanga page make it difficult to view, I changed it.

I think it is really funny that they put my wild remarks up for the world to see, uh... thanks?

I guess it was a toss up. Try to get me at the expense of displaying unsavory comments about "the dude".

About the equivalent of trying to kick a eunuch in the balls.

ouch?

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just-googling
:D Now I will know what kind of flower to offer :D

Maybe a new name change is in the works:

Siddhanarcissinanda Paramahamsa :?:

:D

[b:3d31d9c5b0]Siddhanarcissinanda Paramahamsa![/b:3d31d9c5b0]
Now that is funny!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
The swan that dips its face in the nectar of narcissis and gets stuck there till it chokes on its own mythology!
Thanks bro!

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zelig
The word narcissism comes from the Greek god Narcissis who fell in love with his own reflection. According to Greek mythology, Narcissis was the son of the river god Kephissos. He was a vain youth, who spent most of his time languishing by the waters, staring at his own reflection in abject self-adoration.

Maybe this could be the real reason for all that tin foil - it reflects back his image kind of like a mirror!

:lol:

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DharamRakshak
Me thinks that it is going to get awfully lonely up there on your pedestal Zelig….. An alias which by the way is from a Woody Allen movie.
The title character, Leonard Zelig (played by Woody Allen), is a man who has the ability to change his appearance to that of the people he is surrounded by.

For the record:

--- Zelig is a fairly common and old Ashkenazi Jewish name. There was also a Zelig in my family. Woody Allen, a Jew, who wrote the movie, used the name because it sounded funny. I picked it because of the chameleon-like and anonymous nature of all internet forums, was distinctively Jewish, a homage to my great uncle Z, and it sounded funny.

I’m glad that you brought this up because it illustrates perfectly why I cautioned Ash and Cara about coming to conclusions about plots and conspiracies too quickly. The whole is not always the sum of the parts. People like to build “castles in the sky” and make connections where no connections exist except in their own imagination. You imply in your post that I am somehow in collusion with CB and my forum moniker confirms that I am the troll of all trolls! If you conduct any research in this way, it may make a great story but it will always be fiction and never credible. My comments to Cara and Ash were to be wary of this human tendency and consider their sources --- never to discourage the research, but make the research and conclusions fool proof. I also expressed doubts about specific sources and modus operandi. Those were my opinions. Take it or leave it, but don’t flame someone for it.

--- From this post it is obvious that you have not carefully read much of what I have written on this forum.

--- The folks who got banned from this forum (by the hand of Rick Ross) had several things in common: flaming, as you have just done to me, preaching and excessive off topic discussions perceived by Rick to disturb the thread. This forum has specific topics, but always centers on the discussion of cults. We are free to debate within certain parameters set up by Rick Ross. What you don’t know is that I also warned a couple of people about getting banned in the hopes they would stay on. They both ended their conversations with anti-semitic tirades against Rick. Go figure?

I wrote:

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I think that there are ethical and judicious ways to expose a cult without being suicidal about it.

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DharamRakshak
Again references to Siddhaswarupananda's instructions and "suicidal" the favourite reference of those who leave as in committing spiritual suicide.

Again, you are really stretching things out of proportion. That was no CB reference! If she is announcing her every move and location, it puts her at a distinct disadvantage and danger! That is simply a suicidal tactic. If you are going to war, learn the art of war and rules of engagement! The fact that you guys don’t get this is astounding! And if she gets dragged through the court system she will be of no use to herself or the cause! Evidently while you were languishing in the cult, you must not have learned how the real world works, especially for those with lots of resources! You guys are so naïve or possibly paranoid to interpret my comments as inimical! I don’t know how to be any more clear.

I wrote:

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I also don’t believe in hurting innocent people still in the cult. I don’t believe in the credo, “by any means necessary” to attack the cult.

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DharamRakshak
As Cara already stated there are no innocent people. … There are ignorant people - but ignorance is not an excuse. To stay in Science of Identity (and I indcit myself here) one has to be prepared to turn a blind eye to a lot of things. These people that you allude to as being victimised are the ones that will take up arms for Sri Guru so to speak that will attack and aim to discredit those who are trying to expose the evil of Sciene of Identity. The most valuable weapon that Siddhaswarupananda has is these faceless masses that are all too ready to do his bidding. As was said the most that anyone who is truely innocent will suffer is a bit of embarrassment and may wake up to themselves.

We have to agree to disagree here. We hold different standards of ethics. There are innocent people in SOI who are not “faceless masses” along with those who, no doubt, would take up arms. And anyone with children who has ever suffered slander and the subsequent loss of livelihood due to religious or political beliefs knows that it is more than suffering a “bit of embarrassment”. False accusations direct or indirect can have disastrous affects. There lies the difficulty and the moral dilemma. Blaming the “ignorant” and erasing their individuality and humanity in spite of their misguided beliefs is not honorable, nor does it help to free anyone from a cult.

--- My opinion has been grossly misinterpreted. I have never stated that they should stop their research or be bullied into submission, only that they should carefully weigh what and how they go about their mission. Like in a chess game, they need to visualize the outcome of the next 10 moves to win. The fact that CB has also mentioned “not hurting the innocent” does not make the intention behind the statement the same. He has his papacy and money coffers threatened. I have nothing to gain (only a lot of nasty, undeserved comments and accusations so far). Cult leaders always use a tiny bit of truth to candy-coat their real agendas. If you read all of my posts you’ll see I am no CB apologist. I have shared my thoughts with good intention and more (and Cara knows the “more”).

--- All I am saying is to be mindful of the outcomes and potential for harm, and to act judiciously. This takes a lot of patience, discipline, and astuteness. It’s a difficult job. These things tend to take on a life of their own. Is it possible to expose and destroy a cult without collateral damage? Will it be possible to go beyond educating the public about SOI and destroy their infrastructure while enlightening the deluded? Will SOI be obliterated by these actions? Can it be done without getting martyred? Why isn’t education enough? When is it correct to wage war? How do you extricate the evil when it hides within the walls of the righteous? Are you a physician or a warrior? I don’t know the answers. It is her mission. She’s a grown woman. She can take or leave what I say.

There is an old joke: The doctor says, “The surgery was a success and the tumor was removed, but the patient died.”


I suggest you re-read my post more carefully.

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zelig
Heh, heh :lol:
Really got me going there.... I am now doubting the veracity and authenticity of this Living Force blog. When they repeated obvious 'blasphemy' --- something a SOI person wouldn't do --- unless really young... The reason I asked if her parents knew is because they would discourage engaging in debate. Who knows....? If it is not a real blog, then at least it seems to represent SOI philosophy.

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cultreporter
You doubt the authenticity and veracity of everything and ultimately your contributions to this forum are the reason why so many of the people that actually want to see Science of Identity exposed decide to leave and don't post here anymore or got banned.

Ouch! I find these comments very odd, because [b:636180f9c0]I have been a major critic of SOI and a cheif supporter of your efforts![/b:636180f9c0] Rick Ross is the one that banned people, not me, and for good reasons. Yes, I am guided by a personal ethic that questions everything. A question is not an opposition, only a request for proof or clarification. I also hold a high level when it comes to the burden of proof. I don’t believe in falsely accusing people, even if it is an enemy, without evidence. I also don’t believe in hurting innocent people still in the cult. I don’t believe in the credo, “by any means necessary” to attack the cult. I think that there are ethical and judicious ways to expose a cult without being suicidal about it. Rick Ross exposes cults and is able to do this with minimal personal loss. He maintains a robust and well monitored forum and wins in court. He maintains his credibility. It’s a good model to follow. That’s my opinion. If people leave the forum over one man’s opinion, then it is their choice. I refuse to be disingenuous.

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cultreporter
The best trolls are the ones where you don't know they are. You can go back over this thread and before the digging really started going you were saying there was nothing to find. Then you try to minimise everything that is found and brand everyone as trolls and information as false and run interference through the PM system.

You are incorrect. I have been straight forward from the beginning. All I offer are my words, experiences, and opinions. An opinion is just holding a different perspective on the same issue. I respect your opinions, but don’t always agree with them. I have always been clear that from my perspective, from experiences gleaned 20 years ago, that I did not personally have any knowledge of many of the things you have suggested (e.g., drug dealing, ISKcon connection, et al). That is my testimony. I won’t lie, make up stories or stretch the truth to make the case greater or to please anyone. That said, it doesn't mean that your theories are not true, only that I had no experience of them during my tenure in the group. And it is true that much could be hidden from the followers. But, as I have said before, even without a huge conspiracy theory and toe nail consumption, there was enough, there IS enough evidence for me and others to know that it is a damaging cult.

Because I have questioned or could not confirm some of your theories and advised caution, I have been accused privately and publicly of being a troll, saboteur, of still being brainwashed, and worse. Rather than taking my questioning in the spirit it was given; [b:636180f9c0]to encourage you to prove your hypothesis with more research, to gather more evidence[/b:636180f9c0], you have instead attacked a friend.

[b:636180f9c0]I have neither minimized nor do I have the power to run interference on anyone’s efforts to expose SOI and Chris Butler. My whole concern was for your safety and longevity. I was sad to see your blogs go away[/b:636180f9c0] --- twice. Advertising your every move and location seems unwise. If you want to catch a cockroach you don’t turn the light on and watch them scatter into the cracks out of reach! I do believe that certain members of SOI have a potential for violence. I can say that I witnessed one of CB’s body guards carry a gun in his bead bag. Several guys were armed and fanatical enough to do any crazy thing. [b:636180f9c0] I have only advised that you take care of your health, get a lawyer, and work in stealth. I also advised you to guard your credibility and be cautious of information being given by ‘the enemy of my enemy”.[/b:636180f9c0]

[b:636180f9c0]You and Ash have provided quite a lot of formidable evidence against SOI and followed a lot of their paper trails. I’m looking forward to more fruits of your labors.[/b:636180f9c0] But, I don’t have to agree with you about everything you believe, either religiously or tactically. We do part ways on the issue of not respecting the privacy of non-public cult members. (You have even asked me to keep certain things about your life private, which [b:636180f9c0]I have respected.[/b:636180f9c0]) It is not just for their right to privacy, but also [b:636180f9c0]for your own protection.[/b:636180f9c0] But if you want to invite litigation, then so be it.

I see this forum as a place for people still in the cult to examine the experiences of others and give them good reasons to reassess their membership. Attacking and exposing non-public cult members will just make them cling more tenaciously to the group. If your arguments against the group come off as unreasoned, exaggerated, or underhanded, you help no one leave the cult. And people will be less likely to come forward to give you information. Focus on the head of the snake. Stick to the facts. Again, that is my opinion.

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cultreporter
Ash, Rama and myself are the only ones that have been here with our real names

And your point is what? You are the only three on this or any other forum I have been on that use their real names. That’s your choice. It makes no difference in this context, in the context of this forum which is to discuss the ‘Krishna Group in Hawaii’. There are plenty of good reasons why people want to maintain their privacy and it is not always nefarious. You don’t respect this, fine.

[b:636180f9c0]I wish you well in your endeavors to expose Chris Butler and SOI, by definition, a dangerous cult. Anyone can take the time to see where I have encouraged and promoted your research throughout this forum. To think otherwise is beyond belief. It is counter productive to flame someone who has been so supportive of your efforts.[/b:636180f9c0]

Enough said.