Thanks for the beautiful photo of the Moon, emntk! Awesome! Yes, if the moon was further in distance than the Sun, there would be [b:cbe618666c]no[/b:cbe618666c] phases of the moon (i.e. new, crescent, quarter, gibbous, etc) ... But their thinking may go on like this: "This is [b:cbe618666c]not[/b:cbe618666c] the Moon that we see with our eyes, but [b:cbe618666c]Rahu[/b:cbe618666c]!" If so, then why do they themselves call it the Moon???

Definitely a [b:cbe618666c]sore spot [/b:cbe618666c]in their so-called infallible scripture.... :?:

:idea: IDEA: Here's an idea for Kris and the sale of his 2.2 million mansion... Instead of selling it for 2.2 million he should sell it for 3 million... With the extra $800,000 he could pay the cleaners, gardeners, body-guards, chauffeurs, etc. and he would still be left with the 2.2 mil. (The 800,000 could pay 10,000 a year for 8 people for ten years!)

But I suppose if these people start working for money, it would not be considered [i:cbe618666c]devotional service[/i:cbe618666c], would it. Ever since ACB first translated the Gita and wrote something about "renouncing the fruits of your activities" and ideas such as austerity, the followers have believed that going without the necessities of life would buy them a place in the spiritual world...??? So they choose to go without and crawl around dumpsters in order to get food and shelter!

:arrow: Strange religion.

:?:

What God wants, God gets
(God help us all)
God wants famine, God wants chain stores....[/color:cbe618666c]

Roger Waters[/size:cbe618666c]

Good idea Googling! How much back pay do you think he will owe us!!???

Gaudiya-
You make some good points from your religious perspective. Perhaps after you have made 10 "legal" posts we can communicate more. I find it interesting that not only is he a hypocrite within his own religious tradition, but also by any other standard, including what one might see as materialistic; slave wages with exorbitant "union dues" and other abuses including mental, emotional and physical.

I don't have a problem with a man having the right to enjoy the world by living a clean and good life that helps others. Making love to a beautiful woman, even marrying a divorced student if the marriage was harmful is not bad in itself. But to accept a woman as an “offering to guru and God” is amoral at best. Making lots of money and living in nice places is not a sin in itself. But it is the complete opposite of CB's teachings. In this he demonstrates that he is a crook and a liar.

The literary comparison to Putana the vampire witch is excellent, especially when we get into the areas of child abuse, since she stole children. And seemingly, CB has targeted the next generation of followers to keep his empire going. Not happy with the egalitarian and open way his first generation hippie followers raised their children (Some actually learned to think for themselves!) he is clamping down his orthodoxy even tighter on the next sprouts and making sure people are intermarrying into the group. Sociologically, you see this survival mechanism evolve with many religious groups (e.g., Amish and Persian Jews). They increasingly become isolationist. This also is not bad in itself and necessary at times to preserve the traditions. In CB’s case it is more likely to conceal illegal and immoral operations.

Loneliness was a keynote with CB’s character for many years prior to Wai Lan. It’s lonely when you fancy yourself pure and perfected without peer. He had Sudama and Tusta but kept them distant on far away missions in the Philippines and New Zealand. Their friendship kept him relatively normal. Post Wai Lan is when the aluminum foil, the fines, the bags on the head, the toe nail eating appeared. All after I left. He had already devolved into a task master and germ phobic, but these other manifestations of insanity within him and his group world wide accelerated later. In Wai Lan he found the perfect mate to support his pathology.

:D I suppose their last straw final counterargument would be that the moon and Rahu may appear the same to our eyes but they are both in different dimensions... that the Moon may be more distant than the Sun in spiritual miles rather than material miles ??? ... that it is not possible to reach the Moon with material spaceships in the same way that one cannot build a stairway to heaven (which does make some sense)...

:arrow: However, there is even [b:403a7cd017]more gobbledeegook [/b:403a7cd017]in the purports of ACB. I think he mentions that there is only one Sun in the universe ... (I suppose he means only one stellar body that puts out heat and light) ... and that all the stars we see at night are planets (do not emit heat and light). Of course, the material scientists say that the stars are also suns but so very very far away that their heat and light is greatly diminished by the time it reaches us... just as a light bulb would appear very dim from a mile away....

We talked about this on a different thread and someone put forth the theory that people in the old days needed a fanciful view of the universe ... however in this case the material scientists' theory is more fanciful than even ACB's!

:!:

The word "brahmanda" which ACBSP translates as "universe" is translated as "solar system" by other disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. There is indeed one sun within a solar system (usually, though some solar systems have been found that have twin suns at their centre).

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just-googling
:D I suppose their last straw final counterargument would be that the moon and Rahu may appear the same to our eyes but they are both in different dimensions... that the Moon may be more distant than the Sun in spiritual miles rather than material miles ??? ... that it is not possible to reach the Moon with material spaceships in the same way that one cannot build a stairway to heaven (which does make some sense)...

That wouldn't work as Bhaktivedanta was specifically asked on material miles due to the moon eclipsing the sun. He said it was Rahu and not the moon. The moon being one eye of God at night and the sun being the other by day. For this idea to work Rahu would need to travel the exact same path as the moon. Why then it is visible at different locations in different times and does not permanently eclipse the moon or if it does and is of the exact same appearance as the moon then we never actually see the moon. Yep it gets into way too much esoteric and fanciful thinking.

So if this is the explanation then I would be required to agree and state that Rahu is also an excellent source of inter-galactic gargle blasters (tm) and Leprachauns.

The distant galaxies in the universe are observable with the hubble telescope and we can even see galaxies that are moving away from us almost at the speed of light due to the expansion of the universe. When the expansion hits the speed of light we can no longer observe them as the light can no longer reach us. The only thing that I have found to be fanciful about ideas on a cosmological scale is that it is believed that space time is spherical. This means that if you travel in any one direction in a straight line at the correct speed you will return to the point you started. Of course this idea is due to the isometric nature of the universal gravity and the fact that the galaxies don't appear to be expanding from any single point. It may well be true. So science is based on available knowledge and theories and often knowledge is adapted to fit theories rather than the other way around. Other than that we have a good grasp of cause and effect but lack knowledge of why. Why does a material body curve space-time? We simply do not not know. What is beyond the black hole when spacetime curves to infinity and even light cannot escape? Science is limited to the observable and the rest is theory.

I was speaking with an Indian fellow on a physics forum who stated that each of the four yugas exists in a seperate dimension. This explains why there is no archealogical evidence of other ages. He was studying vedic information on the matter that the universe originated from. Of course I asked wasn't it Maha Vishnu. But apparently it's not that simple. This is all interesting theoretically but not oservable so it will remain theory.

I suspect however that there is much about the vedas that has not been understood by ACB and of course there is the issue of translation and interpretation of Sanskrit. It would be difficult to believe that Chris Butler knows much about the vedas at all. :P

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zelig
..he is clamping down his orthodoxy even tighter on the next sprouts and making sure people are intermarrying into the group. Sociologically, you see this survival mechanism evolve with many religious groups (e.g., Amish and Persian Jews). They increasingly become isolationist. This also is not bad in itself and necessary at times to preserve the traditions. In CB’s case it is more likely to conceal illegal and immoral operations.

And how! Just like Tusta getting married to Jagganatha dasi (Jackie Crisfield) so that he could avoid immigration laws. Siddha treats single devotees like commodities summoning them over to Hawaii on devotional service and then arranging marriages to local followers - instant dual citizenship. Two of the VD kids are married to Australians, and Tulsi is married to the big man Tamayo's son in the Phillipines. It is difficult to imagine how these peope would even meet let alone all in love and get married - oh wait there is no such thing as love - I forgot :roll:

In Queensland there is already 'joking' (?) about whose 5 year old son will marry whose 4 year old daughter. All they have to do is get marriages between the three pertinent families, Crisfield, Hansen and Doyle and they will all be related. Within a couple of generations at the rate they are going the inbreeding will be so well established that there may well be a kid born with blue skin or four arms and they will be able to proclaim it to be the next incarnation of Krishna.

The great husband shortage is a great way to keep the women in line and let's face it more women is more children/soldiers for Siddha there is no need for even half as many men (which they don't have) Is it really possible for the number of followers of any group to be so disproportionate? Certainly it could just be an unlucky co-incidence. The majority of followers here are overwhelmingly women but the majority of ex-followers I have met are overwhelmigly men. I doubt there would be a single woman on the Gold Coast that would not fill every body cavity they have with some grade A substance and board a plane to the Phillipines or New Zealand to win the husband lottery. The truth is that if one plays their cards right they too could be sunning themselves on the beach of Hawaii.

I have heard that SOI specifically targets other Krishna cults in the area. There is a loose communal network for a GV sect not far from there and a grouping of Baba followers as well as miscellaneous hippies which is just how Queensland is. If this is true (I will try to check it out next time I have to go up there) then they would get a disproportionate number of women since the trend seems to be in SOI and ISKCON as well for the bramacharis to sleep with them and then dismiss them as 'sluts' not good enough to marry - unless of course they get them pregnant and then they
pretty much have to being such moral guys and all :roll:

[b:90acbe6639]The bonafide teacher of the Absolute heralds the Advent of Krishna by his uncompromising campaign against the pseudo-teachers of religion[/b:90acbe6639]

Gaudiya, I look forward to talking to you again personally (I have been stuck researching for the past few days) perhaps here since you seem open to intelligible discussion you may be able to respond to a point which I think is relevant to this thread.

Irrespective of beliefs, interpretations and spiritual masters it seems to be a recurring theme among devotees in general to say that exposing bogus gurus is not important and that one should be concerned with focussing on their own spiritual life.

I know that Siddha (conveniently) says that one should not speak criticism or they are offensive and one should not hear criticisms either. His devotees are the most fanatical I have met on this point. I have not been into an ISKCON place and asked about their bogus gurus of course and I am sure it would not be tolerated, but they seem to withstand a lot of criticism and I don't see them openly entering into forums to condemn criticisms as they do.

Personally (felt and not aimed) I consider inaction to be neglecting one's spiritual life. From the perspective of one who tries to be a bhakta and who respects the mystical tradition above all others I am confused and disheartened (from association with devotees) by the condemnation and even hostility that I have received from other devotees for wanting Siddha exposed. It is particularly confusing that no one seems to disagree with the criticisms of him, just in doing anything about them. To me it comes down to a simple point, I sincerely prayed for service and this is where I ended up. That is my relationship with Krishna. Lord Caitanya did not live a life or set an example of inaction, Lord Narasingha did not appear to see a demon and then turn his head the other way. I do not claim to be spiritually superior to anyone or special in anyway. I don't even see it as being a great mission to expose Siddha, as I just pointed out it has no acceptance from devotees, no prestige and certainly no wealth - (good thing I don't care for the last two then :) ) but I do see it as mine.

Prahlad said (I am paraphrasing) that there are many people that want to go off and meditate in isolation for their spiritual life, but that he does not want to go alone.

People far more qualified than I am are not only reluctant to act, but hassle and discourage those that do come forward against Siddha and I would genuinely like to know what their reasoning for this is. I see only the contrary in our religion.

There is an ancient prayer that says, "om ajnana timirandasya jnanajnana sakakaya caksur unmilitam yena tasmai sri gurave namah". This means, I offer my respects to my Guru who has opened my eyes with the bright light of spiritual knowledge".

But how many followers of Siddha do you know who are filled with the light of divine knowledge?

One disturbing thing about Siddha's group is that newcomers are discouraged from reading books by the previous Gurus such as Bhaktivinoda and Bhaktisiddhanta.

Why is that?

I think Siddha doesn't want people to read anything that contradicts what he says. He doesn't want people to attain the bright light of spiritual knowledge. He humiliates and insults his disciples constantly and makes them feel they are worthless. He did it to me. In the books of the previous Acharyas you find a totally different philosophy from what Siddha teaches.

I'm sure Siddha would prefer people to be busy working and making money for him than reading books. That's the way things are with him.

Even in ISKCON (which I'm convinced is also a cult) people are encouraged to read books and understand the philosophy. But Siddha's followers I have met have a terribly superficial understanding of Gaudiya Vaishnava philopsophy.

[b:c2b126e31b][moderator note: don't use the board to promote beliefs][/b:c2b126e31b]

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cultreporter
[b:24a96963ba]The bonafide teacher of the Absolute heralds the Advent of Krishna by his uncompromising campaign against the pseudo-teachers of religion[/b:24a96963ba]

Gaudiya, I look forward to talking to you again personally (I have been stuck researching for the past few days) perhaps here since you seem open to intelligible discussion you may be able to respond to a point which I think is relevant to this thread.

Irrespective of beliefs, interpretations and spiritual masters it seems to be a recurring theme among devotees in general to say that exposing bogus gurus is not important and that one should be concerned with focussing on their own spiritual life.

One of the original eleven ISKCON gurus after Prabhupada - "Jayatirtha" the Guru in London - started taking LSD and other drugs and sleeping with women disciples in the early 1980's. One of Jayatirtha's disciples became outraged and he cut of Jayatirtha's head with a samurai sword. The British police never found the head. The killer has now been released from jail. This is how karma works for false gurus.

I left Siddha in the 1970's and I've found what I was searching for - spiritual happiness (not bliss, but I'm on the way to that and I feel OK about life). For me, Siddha and his group are a dim memory from the past.

I find the discussions going on here interesting. But I have no intention of giving up my day time job and starting a new career as a Ghost-Buster.