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Radha Krishna das
In everytime a Spiritual Master will appear according to the time and place, ensuring that He is easily recognised by espousing wisdom that is relevant to all and setting an example that can be followed by all.

You're absolutely right! and to think he has been staring me in the face for so long![/color:e7f372aa60] Very easily recognised, espouses wisdom relevant to all and sets an example everyone can follow. He sounds just like Siddha too, so it's understandable RKd that you got a little confused.

On the science of Identity...[/color:e7f372aa60]
Who are you? Why am I here? I want answers now or I want them eventually!

On Christianity...[/color:e7f372aa60]

Oh, everything's too damned expensive these days. Like this Bible. It cost 15 bucks! And talk about a preachy book! Everybody's a sinner! Except this guy

Words to Devotees... [/color:e7f372aa60]

it takes two to lie. One to lie, and one to listen.

I swear, I never thought that you would find out.

I don't have to be careful, I've got a gun

Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand!

You're saying butt-kisser like it's a bad thing!

Because they're stupid, that's why. That's why everybody does everything!

On material existence...[/color:e7f372aa60]
You tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is 'never try'.

[img:e7f372aa60]http://www.synergizedsolutions.com/simpsons/pictures/homer/homerhippie.gif[/img:e7f372aa60]

Hey Rasha Kishka! You're back!

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Radha Krishna das
All of the people here have their own laundry lists of 'faults' which they perceive with Srila Prabhupad. It is obvious that there is a lot of information that is being passed around and a lot of digging being done in dirt - it is obvious in this situation who will get the most dirty.

Yes we are just stirring the pot and letting the dregs become visible to the innocent. The person holding the stick [and I might add wearing a face mask and latex gloves] is not the one getting dirty. Those of you who have been bathing in this shit and didn't even know what lurked at the bottom are the ones getting dirty. Sorry.

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Radha Krishna das
Srila Prabhupad does not want to have many servants, but it is a kindness to allow us to serve Him so that we may become pure.

So, how's that working out for ya? Are ya pure yet!?
I agree. He really does not like people very much, but his allowing you all to serve is not out of kindness. It is out of a need to be an enjoyer of the fruits of your labor.

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Radha Krishna das
Even if you do not agree with our spiritual beliefs that is your right to do so. If you want to spend your time in gossip that is also your choice. I will not try to impose my beliefs as to what the result of this will be for you,

We all believe in freedom of religion and freedom of speech, but not freedom to abuse and manipulate people. Your group needs to have a warning label attached like they do on cigarettes and dangerous drugs. You are free to believe in an unmerciful god that condemns people to hell [as you have already told us] for telling the truth. It doesn't make it so.

It is true that false accusations can unravel one's spiritual progress and the toxicity of gossip is not hard to grasp.
"Whoever guards his mouth, his mouth becomes like a vessel of the Holy Temple." (source unknown)
"For every moment one guards one's tongue, he earns reward that is beyond the comprehension of angels." (Vilna Gaon citing Midrash)
But the Torah [revealed scripture] commands, "Do not stand aside while your fellow's blood is being shed” (Vayikra). One is obligated from this point of view to spare no effort in preventing our fellow man/woman from suffering physical, emotional, or monetary damage. In a situation where a potential victim is unaware that he is being threatened [or fooled], one is required to warn him even though this will reflect negatively on the person or persons responsible. Speech of this sort in all religious traditions is not merely permissible, it is obligatory.

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Radha Krishna das
Of course Srila Prabhupad is forgiving. He has been criticized many times. One need not concern themselves with the activities of ISKCON. This is in the past, and it is the reason why Srila Prabhupad had no alternative but to move on or accept the unsavoury antics going on.

CB must not have fired you after all. He is forgiving. But the vessel and religious tradition that CB uses has everything to do with ISKcon and its origins. It is a valid feature in this discussion as is Sai Speaks. No one on this board defends CB's decision to distance himself from ISKcon more than I. It was a good move. It is also a part of the evolution of this cult that is open for examination.

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Radha Krishna das
In every time a Spiritual Master will appear according to the time and place, ensuring that He is easily recognised by espousing wisdom that is relevant to all and setting an example that can be followed by all.

Apparently there are a lot of people here that did not find CB very exemplary. That is the core of the discussion. In this sentence you cite some brainwashing ‘code words’, “…Spiritual Master will appear according to the time and place…”. Time and place. What this really means is that CB can make up a new religion and change the rules and traditions at his whim. This is more the characteristic of a despot or a mafia boss than a real master of the spirit. He is simply a master of enjoyment, and you, poor soul, are another victim. He has made of you a supreme fool, as I once was.

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Radha Krishna das
Is there a plan to attack the reputation of businesses run by those who are trying to serve Krishna?

Cara is simply like the little boy in the story, "The Emperor's New Clothes", which is another fairy tale full of wisdom. The little boy was the only one who was guileless enough to tell the truth and yell out, "The emperor is naked!" as he paraded in the public square under the delusion that he was wearing the most glorious garments. Similarly, Cara and others are yelling out, “fraud” as CB parades under the delusion that he is a pure devotee.

No one wants to hurt individuals or families or deprive any one of their livelihood or religious practices, but the public should be aware of what is behind these businesses. Consumers have a right to know about these businesses so that they can make informed decisions about the product or services and whether they want to support a company. The law should also be notified of any labor or civil rights abuses.

Tuco says, “A meshugener zol men oyshraybn, un im araynshraybn.”[/color:17953f4bef][/size:17953f4bef]

[b:e84eb1f202]In light of RKd’s and Eddie's emails to Cara [see; [www.xanga.com]]
the following bears repeating.[/b:e84eb1f202][/color:e84eb1f202]

It is true that false accusations can unravel one's spiritual progress and the toxicity of gossip is not hard to grasp.
"Whoever guards his mouth, his mouth becomes like a vessel of the Holy Temple." (Vilna Gaon on the Laws of Speech)
"For every moment one guards one's tongue, he earns reward that is beyond the comprehension of angels." (Vilna Gaon citing Midrash)
But the Torah [revealed scripture] commands, "Do not stand aside while your fellow's blood is being shed” (Vayikra).
One is obligated from this point of view to spare no effort in preventing our fellow man/woman from suffering physical, emotional, or monetary damage. In a situation where a potential victim is unaware that he is being threatened [or fooled], one is required to warn him even though this will reflect negatively on the person or persons responsible. Speech of this sort in all religious traditions is not merely permissible, it is [b:e84eb1f202]obligatory[/b:e84eb1f202].[/size:e84eb1f202][/color:e84eb1f202]

[b:e84eb1f202]CB has consistently used his powers of speech to denigrate others who only deserved his compassion and sought his help and guidance believing him to be a man of God. His famous "All nothing" speech sums up years of his misanthropy. [see; [www.youtube.com]]

As far as the mystical thing that happens when you find fault in others; you become what you criticize. There is truth in this statement, however, Vincent Bugliosi did not become like Charlie Manson when he was his prosecutor. It only works when you mock what does not deserve to be mocked or ridicule others to shore up false claims. I find it interesting that Sai has become the "gross materialist" he always derided. Sai would hate what his now self has become.

CB has caused harm to others physically, emotionally, and monetarily. (“Evil triumphs when good men do [or say] nothing.”) We have become the warning label.

No one here wants to hurt individuals or families or deprive any one of their livelihood or religious practices, but the public should be aware of what is behind these businesses. Consumers have a right to know about these businesses so that they can make informed decisions about the product or services and whether they want to support a company, organization, or cult. The law should also be notified of any labor or civil rights abuses, or of criminal activities.[/b:e84eb1f202][/color:e84eb1f202]

"Justice, justice, you shall pursue." (Torah)[/color:e84eb1f202]

Radha Krishna das

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What do you hope will be gained by gossiping about the maritial and private affairs of those who are trying to serve Krishna?
Is there a plan to attack the reputation of businesses run by those who are trying to serve Krishna?

RKD:
I liked the "there is no group" defense, (used way back when), better, best.
"Duh, sure, OK, yeah, I believe that, let's all shut up now."

Gossip? Like you guys don't do that! I've heard what the "devotees" say about us behind our backs. ("If you can convince everyone they're psychotic liars maybe no one will listen to them.")

And those wonderful businesses "serving" Krishna? Krishna really [b:93682af503]needs[/b:93682af503] a private jet for his "number-one-devotee" and a bunch of kiddie cartoons to train the keiki to go out and kill for Chris?

Who is going to attack those lovely, holy businesses? Cara? Give me a break!

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jograves
I've heard what the "devotees" say about us behind our backs. ("If you can convince everyone they're psychotic liars maybe no one will listen to them.")

FYI RKd - I don't repeat gossip (so listen carefully)[/color:ef4b3a2a07] :lol:

Please jo tell us more!?! It's not gossiping - it's networking!

I wonder if anyone here has ever been in one of his lectures? For those who have not heard many it always seems to be "I got a letter.." "One of my disciples did this.." "Isn't that right x das?" It seems the more that you get up his nose the more likely Jagad Guru speaks - about you! Even if he doesn't name names essentially a large proportion of his modern lectures seem to amount to little more than gossip - so it is not hard to guess where his followers get the inclination from. :wink:

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cultreporter

Could you give us any idea about recruitment through DTE? It was posted on the forum quite a while ago that they have 'lifestyle centres' attatched to the stores. Do they run 'meditation' classes or similar activities or distribute Siddha's teachings?

I've been reading in this forum about DTE recruitment through "lifestyle centres." They do have classes and presentations in these centers. I will have to make a visit soon and see what is going on. I don't remember seeing anything very obvious in the stores.

In web searches, I have found "Jagad Guru Speaks" being broadcast on cable TV channels all over the place. I found one place where they were showing "Jagad Guru Speaks" in the community room of a shopping mall. They usually flash the Science of Identity Foundation phone number during these programs, so viewers could call the number.

The Science of Identity Foundation is listed in the Honolulu Yellow Pages under "Yoga Instruction."

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cultreporter

What is the profile of SOI/Siddha like in Hawaii today? I have heard that they have public kirtans on the beach, although I never heard the name of the beach mentioned.

Is there any public opposition to them?

I don't think there is much public awareness of SOI or Siddha in Hawaii today. They are keeping a very low profile.

I have heard that the beach where they meet is Bellows Field Beach Park.

There seems to be a lot of Science of Identity Foundation presence in Kailua (Oahu). I have heard of devotees living in group homes. And being bussed in from Kailua, early in the morning, to work at Down to Earth on King Street in Honolulu. (There is a Down to Earth store in Kailua, as well.)

The Kailua 4th of July Parade is a big event. Mike Gabbard usually is in this parade. I heard of one parade, that took place before I arrived here, that featured Mike Gabbard playing his guitar and cult members marching around him all dressed in black. It was said to look very "cultish."

Because their profile is low, there is not a lot of public opposition to them. The same is true of ISKCON, which has recruiters or book and sticker peddlers on busy Kalakaua Avenue in Waikiki every day of the week.

ISKCON marches in the Martin Luther King Day Parade that goes through Waikiki. They also used to have kirtans down Kalakaua Avenue on Tuesdays, but I haven't seen one for years.

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cultreporter

I would love to be in Hawaii and have access to the sources that you mention. I have found that even the international news archives available from here are extremely limited, as are the on-line archives for the major Hawaiian news sources.

Is there any place in Australia where you can view the Honolulu Advertiser on microfilm? Those August 22, 1977 articles by Walter Wright are terrific.

You can look up the Hawaii Business Name Registration for "Healthy's Inc," which is the parent company of Down to Earth Stores at:

[www.hawaii.gov]

Poke around on the web with the names that you find on the Business Name Registration for "Healthy's Inc."

It is interesting to look up the U.S. Trademarks of Mr. Butler and his related business interests. I was using something called TESS, but I think it has been replaced. Try:

[www.uspto.gov]

You can start by looking up the trademark "Wai Lana Yoga."

You can get copies of the Science of Identity Foundation IRS 990 forms, the tax form for U.S. non-profits on Guidestar:

[www.guidestar.com]

They may only have three years of Science of Identity Foundation IRS 990 forms on Guidestar. I have some copies of 990 forms that go back to 1998 or so. The early ones that I have were signed by Carol Gabbard. She was a director and also the only paid employee.

FYI Carol Gabbard was the producer of the "Jagad Guru Speaks" cable TV program, for a time (or so I have been told).

You are too much RK das,

I thought you were too imperfect to be speaking for your guru but here you are again. Don't stop I find your posts amusing.

Your assertion that your beleifs are just that 'beliefs', contradicts your own spiritual master again. I won't try to impose YOUR beleifs onto YOU but you know what the teachings say about contradicting your own spiritual master.
8)

CB criticises christians for having beliefs or faith as this contradicts Jesus saying "You shall KNOW the truth and the truth shall set you free." It's on the begining of nearly every Jagad Guru Speaks video. On one hand you are saying that us mere material beings cannot know the truth then on the other hand CB is saying you shouldn't follow blindly. How many years having you been running so-called "meditation" classes as a disciple teaching CB's teachings and you still haven't achieved this basic knowledge? When I was on the GC you were one of the few disciples running classes over ten years ago.

The "teaching" having contradictions doesn't give me a whole lot of "blind faith" or knowledge of the truth. Really you should know the truth RKd and be setting us all straight like you said you were going to in the beginning remember. Now it's down to well we have faith this is true and you cannot argue with faith.

But of course this is because you are an imperfect disciple right? CB is a little short on perfect disciples isn't he and that is why you are here representing him? Perhaps noone would want to expose SOI if it didn't deceive people and neglect children.

Perhaps if not for the direct order from Chris Butler (Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa Jagad Guru Srila Prabhupada) that Cara's personal life be interfered with and gossiped about (you admitted to being involved in) that you would not be here claiming that other's should not interfere and gossip about other's buisness that are directly supporting the Science of Identity foundation (a relious cult) that allows their children be neglected. Mike Gabbard who is a state senator for Hawaii has been accused of following Chris Butler's direct orders also. It is alleged that he attempted to get a law passed that allows abuse and neglect of children on religious grounds. I'm not from Hawaii so I cannot verify this but perhaps someone else can?

So we are going to dig and get dirty with all the little secrets that have remained hidden for so long.

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He is easily recognised by espousing wisdom that is relevant to all and setting an example that can be followed by all.

As far as your claim that Butler makes himself easily recognised is a bit unbelievable while he is hiden away on a small island in Hawaii. He doesn't even have a website and his lectures are not even available to his own students let alone anyone else wishing to have access to this supposed "absolute truth".

What is the deal with the tin-foil lined home that he lives in? Who does this besides people with mental conditions? Where is it written in scripture that a spiritual master, should you find one, may display symptoms of paranoid delusions? Is this his setting an example? Is his yelling at people who ask questions setting an example? Is his lavish reclusive lifestyle setting an example?

Well there ws one devotee that everyone thought was crazy but that was because he was oblivious to anything but God not because he lined his home from floor to ceiling with tin-foil. That is completely nutty.

I know you will not answer any of this RKd directly like Maui couldn't give a direct answer regarding Bhaktivedanta having disciples that were positioned in a very important role and involved in highly criminal behavior. You can't answer this logically. You cannot excuse it away so you had better just ignore this post and pretend none of this stuff is worth your attention. But I do enjoy asking questions that are unanswerable. :lol:

(If the tin-foil is a germaphobia thing can anyone answer if germs actually won't adhere to tin-foil? Is it actually more sterile than a painted wall? Is there any scientific evidence that tin-foil would be a prefered environment to live in?)

"Jesus is not your doormat!", according to JG.
I used to have the pamphlet.
The pure devotee says you can't "wipe your sins off on Jesus" and get into heaven.

It just occurred to me; some say thast JG is in "poor health" because he has taken on the Karma of his devotees?
So, what, you can wipe your sins off on Sai, but not on Jesus?
I'm confused.

I also got the impression, after hearing from lectures that Jesus is just another pure devotee, not an avatar at all, that JG may think he's a little purer than good old JC.
Maybe that's why he can take on the Karma of others but Jesus can't?
Somebody explain this to me, please.

Well according to Sai/Siddha you can ask Jesus to take your sins but not as a repeated weekly thing. It is meant to be a serious decision to change your sinful life rather than get away with begin a regular materialist at Jesus's expense.

Jesus apparently walked on water though and Butler needs a surf board to do that.
:P
...And Bhaktivedanta was an 80 year old man and he had over four thousand disciples yet was still highly active. I think it's just that Siddha is lazy and paranoid that he wants to be treated like straw man that could crumble at any moment.

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emntk
:lol:

(If the tin-foil is a germaphobia thing can anyone answer if germs actually won't adhere to tin-foil? Is it actually more sterile than a painted wall? Is there any scientific evidence that tin-foil would be a prefered environment to live in?)

Actually it is aluminum foil. He probably gets better 'reception' from Krishman that way! :lol: Maybe some grey alien dressed as Krishma met him in the jungles of Hawaii and named him Sai. They've been promoting the alien agenda ever since! Lakhn zol er mit yashtherkes.

Tuco says, "God is with us because he hates the karmis, too!"
The Good says,"God is not on our side 'cause he hates idiots also!"[/color:d402185531][/size:d402185531]