Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
Gulab Jamon
()
Date: March 28, 2006 04:36AM
Quote
just-googling
However, we see every day that some people in Iraq or Afghanistan are always chanting their mantra "Alla Akbar" but at the same time are killing others for the sake of "Allah"... The question remains, why are these people not becoming purified by chanting the names of God???
How can you prove they're not? Maybe to them that is being "purified".
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
just-googling
()
Date: March 30, 2006 10:29PM
Yes, to some of these crazy Taliban types and suicide bombers, maybe killing as many people as possible is a sign of purification... But for the Hare Krishna followers "ahimsa" or non-violence is definitely considered to be a sign of advancement or purification, and that would include non-violence to all human beings as well as animals!
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
gulag
()
Date: April 28, 2006 01:21AM
Browsing these forums has called my attention repeatedly to this particular topic. Why? There is evidently plenty of interest but to the discerning eye quite a piece of sabotage in play. Again, why? A rather bold display of diverting information and baiting. Lots of misleading promises. I rather imagine whatever basic nasty secret this organization is keen to conceal remains in the dark. Does anyone pause to consider most inquiries are made from sincere concern, not for purposes of ridicule and "gossip"?
Certain tactics, complaints and concerns clearly mimic Iskon antics, despite denials.
Certain tactics, complaints and concerns clearly mimic Iskon antics, despite denials.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
initiate
()
Date: May 17, 2006 12:29PM
I am one of Jagad Guru's original initiated diciples. I was with his group for 12 years from the age of 19 to 31. I notice that this post is 2 years old. If anyone still has questions, I will be happy to answer. There are many misconceptions as well as some truths in these posts. I know who was really there. I kept a lot of letters, photographs, recordings, writings and documentation for years. I regret throwing it all away when I returned to my Jewish roots. So now much of what I tell is heresay unless confirmed by other sources. I've often thought of writing a book.
If Malika is still looking for stories about her father, Bruce Butler, I knew him.
If Malika is still looking for stories about her father, Bruce Butler, I knew him.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
cuz
()
Date: May 17, 2006 11:16PM
initiate,
How long have you been out? If you are thinking of writing book does that mean you are not afraid of retalaliation? When did you leave and for what reasons. What made you realize it was a cult? What are the misconceptions and what is true in the posts? Do you still have contact with cult members?
Tell us everything you know. If you are thinking of writing a book you must know plenty.
How long have you been out? If you are thinking of writing book does that mean you are not afraid of retalaliation? When did you leave and for what reasons. What made you realize it was a cult? What are the misconceptions and what is true in the posts? Do you still have contact with cult members?
Tell us everything you know. If you are thinking of writing a book you must know plenty.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
initiate
()
Date: May 18, 2006 01:35AM
Quote
cuz
initiate,
How long have you been out? If you are thinking of writing book does that mean you are not afraid of retalaliation? When did you leave and for what reasons. What made you realize it was a cult? What are the misconceptions and what is true in the posts? Do you still have contact with cult members?
Tell us everything you know. If you are thinking of writing a book you must know plenty.
I will have to answer your questions and respond to the many posts in installments for lack of time. There's a lot to say. I have no fear whatsoever of retaliation from this group.
I left in stages from 1984 to 1990. Technically, I left in 1984, when I no longer worked for or received any direct instructions from Jagad Guru (Chris Butler). I simply packed up my things in Honolulu and moved back to the mainland. I continued to get communiques, but that eventually stopped, when I no longer responded. I can only speak of the time period from 1971 - 1990. I was in touch with many members and ex-members up until the mid 1990's. I lost touch the same way we lose touch with old friends -- moving and losing addresses.
I left for many reasons; some simple and some complex. The short answer is that I no longer believed that he was a pure devotee or God's representative on earth and got tired of working for little or nothing. I wanted to finish my education. Jagad Guru was changing and I was changing. Sorry to disappoint alarmists on this website, but I did not leave due to some trauma or nefarious goings on nor do I know anyone else who left for any reason that would be aired on 60 minutes. The only resistance I felt about leaving was from a couple of lower echelon, busy-body followers looking for gossip. They came by to ask why and if I had permission from Jagad Guru to leave. I just told them that it was none of their business.
My assessment of this group is not black and white. When I looked over the "10 signs of a [i:3ec140c711][b:3ec140c711]safe [/b:3ec140c711][/i:3ec140c711]group/ leader" on this web site, Jagad Guru had 6. When I read the "10 signs of a potentially [b:3ec140c711][i:3ec140c711]unsafe[/i:3ec140c711][/b:3ec140c711] group/ leader", I found 4. In the "10 warning signs of people involved in a potentially unsafe group/leader", I saw 2. Realize that this is not neccessarily a valid assessment instrument, but it is reflective of the grey areas and nature of this group. If I put the same test to the US military or Donald Rumsfeld, they have more signs of a "potentially [b:3ec140c711][i:3ec140c711]unsafe [/i:3ec140c711][/b:3ec140c711]group/leader"!
In future posts I will talk about the reasons behind the secrecy and homophobia, as well as involvement in politics. I'll also address other issues of cultdom.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
devadasi
()
Date: May 18, 2006 08:05PM
I was in the group from 1973 till the middle of the 80's. My story sounds similar to initiate. I don't think anyone will turn up any 60 minutes stuff when it comes to Chris Butler. I heard some stuff about the politics, but being on the lower eschelon didn't really know what was taking place. I left because I did not think he was a pure devotee as well. I read the books and saw the changes. In the beginning it was all simple later things got complicated. In the beginning I did think him a saint but the closer I got the more it appeared he was deviating from the things he was preaching about. I don't hold any grudges but at the same time would not recommend anyone to become his follower. I saw a lot of strange stuff as well, things that did not sit well in my heart. But when you consider the strange things happening in the world today it was not that bad. I don't have any trauma or anything like that. I could have done better things and I could have done worse things at that time in my life.
Initiate there is one thing that always puzzled me. Do you know why Sudama Vipra Swami (Sudama Vipra das) got banished? I was still friendly with some of the devotees when I heard that he had to leave but no one would tell me why he got kicked out. I thought it was way strange considering everyone at one time said he was a 'pure devotee.' After reading these threads it appears Katyayani also got excommunicated. I guess there was only room for one other really pure devotee in his group besides him.
Inititate what was the scoop on this stuff do you know what happened to Sudama and Katyayani? They were really the best of his followers in my opinion.
We probably know each other by the way.
Initiate there is one thing that always puzzled me. Do you know why Sudama Vipra Swami (Sudama Vipra das) got banished? I was still friendly with some of the devotees when I heard that he had to leave but no one would tell me why he got kicked out. I thought it was way strange considering everyone at one time said he was a 'pure devotee.' After reading these threads it appears Katyayani also got excommunicated. I guess there was only room for one other really pure devotee in his group besides him.
Inititate what was the scoop on this stuff do you know what happened to Sudama and Katyayani? They were really the best of his followers in my opinion.
We probably know each other by the way.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
initiate
()
Date: May 19, 2006 12:25AM
Quote
devadasi
In the beginning it was all simple later things got complicated. In the beginning I did think him a saint but the closer I got the more it appeared he was deviating from the things he was preaching about. I don't hold any grudges but at the same time would not recommend anyone to become his follower. I saw a lot of strange stuff as well, things that did not sit well in my heart. quote]
Devadasi-
Perhaps one of the strange things you saw was the fact that our celibate sanyasi (one who takes the vow of celibacy for a lifetime) Siddhaswarupananda Goswami took a wife against the Vaishnava tradition; a Chinese woman who had left her husband and also 5 children! I was privy to see her letters to him from China. She was really smitten with the romance of Krishna and Siddhaswarup. He spoke of her as a pure devotee also. After he married her we all got taped communiques blasting anyone that would judge him for this and that it was none of our business.
I empowered him with my own belief in the saintliness of celibacy so I was upset by this. (Now I see celibacy as unhealthy and there is a lot of research that shows serious health consequences. Not meant for western bodies in general.) G*d bless him. He had every right to marry. Actually this was an example of his rebellious, "I don't give a sh*t about what anyone thinks" attitude. Very appealing. You remeber how funny he could be. Very charismatic. Was it hipocracy? Not really, It was typical Siddha carving his own way. He never preached or encouraged men to take sanyas. One might say he broke a commitment to his Guru, Bhaktivedanta Swami. But a lot of things could be rationalized away as service to Krishna and examples brought out from the Srimad Bhagwatam and Chaitanya Charitamrita. And if you were stupid enough to be a "true believer" you could buy anything.
This action made it so his top devotee sanyassis Tusta Krishna Swami and Sudama Vipra Goswami also took wives. They all took sanyas at very young ages from Bhaktivedanta Swami. Too young to make such a decision. All men in their 20's, including Siddha. (I HATED celibacy!) Now we all have ancestors. They were great guys. Sadly Tusta passed away. Anyone who knew him knows what a void there is in the world without him. He went to die with his dearest and oldest friend Siddha in Hawaii instead of Vrindavan. If you were a devotee you would understand the significance of this. I'm certain Tusta's death affected Siddha profoundly.
I don't know if Siddha had any kids, nor can I verify that he married Wai Lana who has a yoga show on t.v. She is definitely his follower and looks like a Katyayani clone, only much younger. [www.wailana.com]
In later posts I'll tell the story he told us why he became a sanyasi (celibate monk) before he was initiated by Bhaktivedanta.
I was not around for the "excommunications" of Katyanani or Sudama. I can only speculate. They were both as individualistic, charismatic, with leadership and self-empowerment qualities similar to Siddha.
Katyayani learned the guru business very well from him. The last I saw her she had her own vyasasana (elevated guru platform) and quite a following of rich Malibu and L.A. types. She loved her kids, her yoga, and teaching philosophy. She hated the political campaigns. Her cooking t.v. show also put her under a tremendous amount of stress. She made a choice. Siddha didn't like it.
Sudama was a wild card. He was so devoted and passionate and outspoken. No one could B.S. this guy. He could ferret out anyone's character flaws and dishonesty. He was pure and painful truth. Siddha admired his chutzpah and strength. He probably had more testosterone and balls than any of the men connected with Siddha. Stories were told that he was an ex-Hell's Angel. I loved his lectures -- so direct and to the bone. I don't think his marriage was happy. I could see him not liking the direction the group was going and having a falling out with Siddha.
The thing that people don't know is that the top followers were good people who worked hard at ordinary jobs and taught their children good values. They were not spaced out, zombie followers. (Siddha HATED those types and mocked them often). They were creative and dynamic people. I don't agree with some of the theology, but we do have freedom of religion in this country. I also don't agree with everything on this website either, but it provides a tremendous service and resources.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
initiate
()
Date: May 19, 2006 12:29AM
Quote
devadasi
We probably know each other by the way.
Devadasi, after 10 approved posts on this site you can contact me with a private message on this forum.
Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by:
initiate
()
Date: May 19, 2006 03:04AM
The main reasons I am posting on this website is to set the record straight, to show families what not to worry about and what to be very concerned about. I’m not here to reminisce about the past or vent for therapeutic reasons.
The best way to inoculate your kids against cults and give them good B.S. meters is to tell them every day how great they are. Love them up and show them all the great qualities they possess. Love them unconditionally. Make them know they are valued, cherished and treasured. Never insult or degrade your kids with your actions and words. Don’t raise them to be afraid of the world. You don’t need to be permissive or lenient. They need loving guidance. Act respectfully. Live a good and clean life. If you don’t have this together in yourself, if you don’t value yourself, you’ll have a tough time. Talk to your kids. Have dinner with them around a table and teach them to discuss everything. Teach them to debate and think for themselves. The schools and their teachers are not doing this.
I’m good friends with a cult buster who has rescued a lot of Jewish kids from the Hare Krishna’s. He has amazing stories to tell of almost getting killed at the Krishna farm in Virginia! He’s done this for over 30 years. He said the most important thing for parents to do is stay connected with their kids. So many grieving parents cry that they were such a close knit family and did everything they could. But if your kid is in a cult, you dropped the ball somewhere. Some place you weren’t watching and let things slip by because of your work or your divorce or whatever excuse. You said something, did something that made it so your kid did not feel safe coming to you any more. You let the channels of communication slip by or you excused it as normal teenage behavior like all of your friends. And now there are more dangers out there besides cults. There are more dangerous and destructive subcultures and perverted practices out there than ever.
If your kid is leaning towards a cult, no matter how sweet and innocuous it may be, exchange ideas in a neutral way. Don’t judge, get angry, or argue unless you want to drive your kid deeper in the cult. Guide your child’s own discernment powers. And don’t ignore it either, thinking that your kid will outgrow it in a few years. It may take him 10, 20, even 30 years to get out, if at all. By then you may never know your grandchildren. Keep in touch with your kids on the deepest levels. Don’t think you can’t do this. This doesn’t mean that you smother them or dominate them. It means to teach them to think on their feet, to respect you, and feel free to share ideas no matter how diverse.
Chris Butler was terribly alienated from his family. The only relative he was in touch with was his brother Bruce (a character in his own right). Bruce used to lament that the only way he could see his brother is if he chanted and pretended to be a follower. He did try for awhile. He used to say, “Man, he’s just my brother.” “I don’t see him like all of you blind followers.” He was the one person that would make everyone uncomfortable by pointing out the hypocrisies in the group. Pissed a lot of people off. I loved this about Bruce. He could be very obnoxious and got away with it because he was Siddha’s brother. Everyone would be afraid to give him a hard time.
Siddha’s parents were members of the left wing elite in the 1960’s. He always told the story of how angry his father got when he came home and announced that he was a vegetarian (a common scenario at that time – now vegetarianism is mainstream). He went on and on about the slaughterhouses and animal suffering with his Dad’s steak in front of him. His Dad got so mad he screamed, “You’ve ruined my meal!” and couldn’t eat it. Siddha told the story in a way that got everyone laughing and then would lecture about controlling the five senses or something about how miserable the material world was. We were already vegetarians. Our impression of his Dad (and for many of us, our own Dad’s) was of an angry, uptight, narrow-minded materialist.
Once, Siddha was very ill. Katyayani was taking care of him but he was not getting better. He knew acupuncture and could treat himself quite well or taught others to help him. This must have been a bacterial infection. Katyayani asked me to call his father, who was a doctor. She said that she could not speak to him, he’d know her voice and to not let him know the location of the house. I called and explained that his son was very ill, described the symptoms and asked if he could prescribe some antibiotics. He asked a few questions and gave me the name of the pharmacy where we could pick up the meds. What I heard next, stunned me. Not so much the words, but the depth of grief they conveyed in their tone. He said that he had not heard from his son in a very long time and had no idea he was in Honolulu. He said, “Tell him I love him.” This man had a broken heart. He was not the crazed materialist that I had imagined.
The best way to inoculate your kids against cults and give them good B.S. meters is to tell them every day how great they are. Love them up and show them all the great qualities they possess. Love them unconditionally. Make them know they are valued, cherished and treasured. Never insult or degrade your kids with your actions and words. Don’t raise them to be afraid of the world. You don’t need to be permissive or lenient. They need loving guidance. Act respectfully. Live a good and clean life. If you don’t have this together in yourself, if you don’t value yourself, you’ll have a tough time. Talk to your kids. Have dinner with them around a table and teach them to discuss everything. Teach them to debate and think for themselves. The schools and their teachers are not doing this.
I’m good friends with a cult buster who has rescued a lot of Jewish kids from the Hare Krishna’s. He has amazing stories to tell of almost getting killed at the Krishna farm in Virginia! He’s done this for over 30 years. He said the most important thing for parents to do is stay connected with their kids. So many grieving parents cry that they were such a close knit family and did everything they could. But if your kid is in a cult, you dropped the ball somewhere. Some place you weren’t watching and let things slip by because of your work or your divorce or whatever excuse. You said something, did something that made it so your kid did not feel safe coming to you any more. You let the channels of communication slip by or you excused it as normal teenage behavior like all of your friends. And now there are more dangers out there besides cults. There are more dangerous and destructive subcultures and perverted practices out there than ever.
If your kid is leaning towards a cult, no matter how sweet and innocuous it may be, exchange ideas in a neutral way. Don’t judge, get angry, or argue unless you want to drive your kid deeper in the cult. Guide your child’s own discernment powers. And don’t ignore it either, thinking that your kid will outgrow it in a few years. It may take him 10, 20, even 30 years to get out, if at all. By then you may never know your grandchildren. Keep in touch with your kids on the deepest levels. Don’t think you can’t do this. This doesn’t mean that you smother them or dominate them. It means to teach them to think on their feet, to respect you, and feel free to share ideas no matter how diverse.
Chris Butler was terribly alienated from his family. The only relative he was in touch with was his brother Bruce (a character in his own right). Bruce used to lament that the only way he could see his brother is if he chanted and pretended to be a follower. He did try for awhile. He used to say, “Man, he’s just my brother.” “I don’t see him like all of you blind followers.” He was the one person that would make everyone uncomfortable by pointing out the hypocrisies in the group. Pissed a lot of people off. I loved this about Bruce. He could be very obnoxious and got away with it because he was Siddha’s brother. Everyone would be afraid to give him a hard time.
Siddha’s parents were members of the left wing elite in the 1960’s. He always told the story of how angry his father got when he came home and announced that he was a vegetarian (a common scenario at that time – now vegetarianism is mainstream). He went on and on about the slaughterhouses and animal suffering with his Dad’s steak in front of him. His Dad got so mad he screamed, “You’ve ruined my meal!” and couldn’t eat it. Siddha told the story in a way that got everyone laughing and then would lecture about controlling the five senses or something about how miserable the material world was. We were already vegetarians. Our impression of his Dad (and for many of us, our own Dad’s) was of an angry, uptight, narrow-minded materialist.
Once, Siddha was very ill. Katyayani was taking care of him but he was not getting better. He knew acupuncture and could treat himself quite well or taught others to help him. This must have been a bacterial infection. Katyayani asked me to call his father, who was a doctor. She said that she could not speak to him, he’d know her voice and to not let him know the location of the house. I called and explained that his son was very ill, described the symptoms and asked if he could prescribe some antibiotics. He asked a few questions and gave me the name of the pharmacy where we could pick up the meds. What I heard next, stunned me. Not so much the words, but the depth of grief they conveyed in their tone. He said that he had not heard from his son in a very long time and had no idea he was in Honolulu. He said, “Tell him I love him.” This man had a broken heart. He was not the crazed materialist that I had imagined.
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