Other benefits are, for example, what Ian Koviak emphasized - congregational chanting in general. Let's take the Croatian tradition:

[www.youtube.com]

"Gori duša, gori obrazy
Sunce mi od tebe dolazi"

Translation:

Burning soul, burning cheeks
The sun is coming to me from you

But also to polish ca be translated "burning soul, burning offences"

The topic itself is interesting. One of the legends or variants says that the 3 Slavic brothers Lech, Czech and Rus were Croatians. Of course, you can also believe in the legend that pastimes did not always take place in India, but changed places, and Dvaraka was once in Dubrovnik and Masuria or Lithuania ("bhaktas" in Lithuanian is Sanskrit linguistic archaism) was Vrndavana. And so on...

Anyway. It would required scientific discipline. Not blind faith to study the legends.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2022 07:40PM by Culthusiast.

Well with these lunatics anything is possible. I somehow doubt that they would hide this.
They love the glorification of butler too much.
They also know that the sheep will run to the seniors such as midgett, bellord, tibby.
The SoI ship will not sink so easily.
The demigods of SoI are ready to jump in and save the day.
Even if he leaves, wailana will keep her pure devotee statues.
People will still wash her toilet, prepare her meals and make sure no safety pins desteoys the delicate skin of her foot.
Maybe soon we will have the pleasure to have her toenails in our soups and salads.
I sure hope they both leave at the same time and take their god damn narcissism to hell with them.

Martians speak Latvian but we're not making a cult out of it.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They love the glorification of butler too much.

It's not just glory. C. Butler himself pointed at least once the difference between a relationship with a guru and a relationship between a woman discipe and a male guru. It's not an accident. Not one signal.That's it. As I watched the old lectures on TV, I saw that CB was using personal charm, looking like seduction techniques. The cameraman was aware of this and also the editor - the camera crashed into a young woman with a watch. Boots like a boomerang.

> They also know that the sheep will run to the
> seniors such as midgett, bellord, tibby.

There is a need for a new leader, an idol, in this psychological construct.

But it's not just Tibby, Midgett or young Bellord. The political wing is the old Gabbard, Gabbard and Khemaney. The younger generation - Tulsi - political leader would have to take on the role of guru ... Business Bismark (with his wife, sister-in-law of dealer's son-in-law).

> The SoI ship will not sink so easily.
> The demigods of SoI are ready to jump in and save
> the day.

Cola, popcorn and watching ..

> Even if he leaves, wailana will keep her pure
> devotee statues.
> People will still wash her toilet, prepare her
> meals and make sure no safety pins desteoys the
> delicate skin of her foot.

This role simply suits some. They internalized it deeply. In Poland, some of leaders servants after elimination of centers could not function in the new realities of the cult for some time. There was no one who thinks for you, who tells etc.

Salvation/liberation it is too important thing to entrust to yourself.

It is best to transfer the aspect of salvation or liberation to a sect leader. The sect is the best of the world, bona-fide.

The local leader is accepted through the right hand of the guru. And the guru is the only pure devotee. Thus, there is a guarantee of salvation ...

> Maybe soon we will have the pleasure to have her
> toenails in our soups and salads.

"Voodoo magic, fucking voodoo magic man..."

> I sure hope they both leave at the same time and
> take their god damn narcissism to hell with them.

you know, in Veda are descibed "the subterranean planets of heaven". That would make them a little necromongers..Underverse...



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2022 07:30PM by Culthusiast.

Sorry, "with his wife, sister of dealer's son-in-law". Conscious loving, conscious selling and conscious maryjane dealing...

CL CS CD...CCC. Polish: "cena czyni cuda" - eng. "price makes miracles"

C C C x L S D ... Matrix..



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2022 08:13PM by Culthusiast.

I doubt they are doing black magic woodoo.
However I seem to be the only person who is discussing the supernatural aspect of the path.
It feels a bit lonely and lunatic to be the only one bringing it to the table.
The way I personally ended in the group and everything else I have experienced with this group feels like magic.
I have said it many times that I feel butler is backed up by some forces.
There is way way way too many things that we cannot grasp.
But yes for sure the power that he has in followers cannot be credited to him and his charisma alone.
People are fooled by metaphysical phenom.
It is always safer to accept spirituality blindly and never ask questions.
The esoteric side goes very deep and no matter how much we experience, see and understand, we cannot get the HOW and WHY.
The force of illusion is quite real and powerful too.
Most devotees do not see butler. Will never see him in person, So he is already almost like a departed figure.
The only thing that will be missing, is his direct instructions.
Also he has already been in seclusion for a while.
They will adjust easily.
For me next in line is midgett. I think people will automatically look up to him.
Let us say that imho, it will not be worse than this when bulter leaves.
I think it may get better.

@ Truth Wins

I considered to answer to your commentaries to mystical experience before but felt always reluctant about it, since it is a personal experience and should be only labeled as that - in my opinion and experiences.

1. I had supranational and so to say "mystical" religious experiences since I was a child and long before I encountered ISCKON. I grew up Christian. I was also able to "call" them anytime and make them appear. First of all, these experiences only happens to people who need them and I would disagree to say, that they are a general trait of ISKON, the Butler group or any other religious or spiritual group. Nobody owns them. They come from you and for you. Some people have a mind set or a way of understanding and perceiving the world through these experiencing and therefore they are poured in our lives. When you are on the emotional, abstract sensitive side of life (as I would asses myself), rather than the rational and pragmatic one, then the supranational experiences make more sense and are therefore also real. They talk to a place in us where we just do not know better, and cannot be grasped by any concept|or language, presented by the world we live in. They might be mystical for other people but not for the person who experiences them. And yes it can be lonley to be the only person to experience them, but they are only for you and your understanding of the world. So it is actually only important for you.

2. Having such experiences my whole life and talking to other people having them I realised that not the experience itself is mostly important but how i feel in it. It is like in a dream- it does not matter in your dream if cows can fly, but rather how you feel about the flying cows. Is it love, satisfaction, or rather anger and fear.It is a direct mirror of emotional needs which are adressed in the experiences but cannot be lived out and grasped in the physical (real) life - for whatever reason. If you cannot access yourself, you need the supranational to understand where you are in your emotional and spiritual development. I cried for days when i realised this.

3. This point has to do with my understanding of spirituality. I made the experiences that butler and isckon people do not share and understand this view because they are from the DVAITA school of thought, but i will write it down anyways: So on some point i figured that if I want to progress in my spiritual development , I have to let go of the mystical experiences. I have to go beyond form, worship, glitter and emotional supranational satisfaction to meet god, truth, the true self - whatever you may call it. As long as I am stuck on pondering about these experiences and taking them as something super special, as long I will be trapped in worshipping the idea, the fascination and whatever they provide to me. I am not wdoing real Bhakti or worship to god, since I am stuck on investing in these experiences, their real-ness and the concept behind it. But I want to meet God and my true self, so it cannot have anything to do with something, that is limited by form, expression, space, time, guru -what so ever. This is an advaitic or buddhistic point of view. I have to erase anything, that I can somehow relate to and see what is left and this is basically God, or Me or whatever theology you like to follow. For a dvaitic, absolute bhakti person - very hard to understand, in my experience.

4. Mysticism and supranational experiences have always been an integrated part of Eastern religions, even in the Russian orthodox church - which is Christian. Every expression of an individual path of god is allowed and embedded into the logic of the mind and the person that is having these experiences. Calling them mystical, by many hindus for example, is even perceived as Western racism and a left over from colonial power politics.

So all your experiences are valid, but they are for you and from you. They are not part of the path or the Butler group. They dont hold any secret power, they only hold you. The secret power is from you. It could have happened in any other group. But groups who are not empåhasising bhakti so much and dvaita, they might not feel that these experiences are even supranational.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2022 12:31AM by Frozen Nick91.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I doubt they are doing black magic woodoo.

There were some incidents (supposed results) and some suspicious actions. Reported abilities.

> For me next in line is midgett. I think people
> will automatically look up to him.

Should not stay long... He's not young...

[www.youtube.com]


Frozen Nick91 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 3. This point has to do with my understanding of
> spirituality. I made the experiences that butler
> and isckon people do not share and understand this
> view because they are from the DVAITA school of
> thought, but i will write it down anyways: So on
> some point i figured that if I want to progress in
> my spiritual development , I have to let go of the
> mystical experiences.

Can You compare Dvaita and Advaita schools in organisational contexts? Sangas organisation etc?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2022 05:41AM by Culthusiast.

The History of Politics in Gaudiya Vaishnava Cults and the Road to Tulsi Gabbard.

This article is purely to establish political influence within the narrow confines of the Gaudiya Vaishnava sect, of which butler is a member.

This basic post was originally touched upon by the Whirlwind a few days back but was deleted for assorted reasons.

It is my hope that this will contextualize the original post in which there was an attempt to document the specific political leanings in the cult, and its origins.

Without addressing every single political influence within this cult and the hare krishna movement in general, I will attempt to draw as straight a line as possible from the contemporary creators of the Gaudiya Vaishnava faith leading to the attempt at putting Tulsi Gabbard in the Whitehouse.

Starting with Bhaktivinode thakur who himself held the political position of magistrate in the late 1800s, we can see that he used his political influence and connections to establish the so-called birthplace of the Chaitanya saint. This was done largely to legitimatize an otherwise dying Bengali cult and establish a "center" of attraction/pilgrimage for Gaudiya Vaishnavas. Something that up until then was a cause of dismissal of their cult by the larger Vaishnava sects who were more established historically and documented.

Bhaktivinode gained so-called access to "documents" and maps to verify the exact location of the saint's so-called birth. This was of course met with much opposition from gaudiya vaishnavas of the time but with enough persistence and "proof" it gained acceptance from some.

Bhaktivinode also used his connections in politics and background in education to send some of his writings to intelligencia and scholars in western universities.

Bhaktisiddhanta, foremost son of Bhaktivinode and totalitarian preacher of the "new" Gaudiya faith, then went on to establish Brahmin initiation. The main function of brahmins in varnashram was as political advisors to the kshatryias or the administrative caste. This was a fairly traditional set up in India and under British rule it persisted as a mode of influence in political settings. It is my opinion that this was a key reason to establish the "brahmin" in a cult that otherwise had nothing to do with traditional brahmin caste and was mostly composed of babjis, traditionally.

Bhaktisiddhanta then went on to often arrange meetings between himself and prominent political and social leaders to gain influence and preach to them about his new revived cult of brotherhood and Sankirtan. Not much interest or attraction was there and Bhaktisiddhnatas cult never gained much political momentum nor hardly left Inida aside from some attempt to send preachers to Germany and Britain.

Bhaktivedanta, Disciple of Bhaktisiddhanta came to the west during the pinnacle of political upheaval and created his ISKCON cult. The swamis focal preaching efforts involved a desire to establish a vibrant governance centered around the so-called vedic Varnashram system. Culturally known as the Caste System, a generally failed and well-abused format for social order and structure that has failed India on many levels historically and continues to in the present day.

Under his desire for such a society, his devotees started a political party called the In God We Trust Party which attempted to gain political traction and even had a newsletter as well as assorted campaigns all blessed by the swami: https://vanipedia.org/wiki/Special:VaniSearch?s=In+God+We+Trust+Party&tab=text

Eventually, the program/party was ceased by devotees under the swamis order. Presumably, he was fearful that reporters and other political parties would start to dig deeper int the movement and discover dirt or create issues about assorted backward practices of the hare krishnas. There is really no clear reason as to why the swami stopped it, but one can imagine that as with most political parties, journalists and other politicians put in a ton of energy to discredit opponents and one this real-life scenario came to the forefront and threatened the movement, Prabhupada put a stop to it and retreated back to the tried and true: Book distribution/kirtan/temples and day to day recruiting and operations of the cult. Or maybe Krishna told him he did not want him to run for president and save all of humanity. I dunno. Your guess is as good as mine.

The In God We Trust Political "party" persists in current times as this clown act: https://www.facebook.com/The-In-God-We-Trust-Party-1123135764447627/
One cannot say much more about him other than, "May god bless his little soul".

You can research more about the so-called IN GOd We Trust Party here; https://srilaprabhupadalila.org/read/8831

Suffice it to say, the seed was planted and something sprouted.

Butler, in his meager time in ISKCON, must have heard about the goings on of the In God We Trust Party, as his involvement in politics start almost as soon as Swami died.

Butler started the Independents for a Godly Government which has been extensively covered on this forum and here as well: https://www.meanwhileinhawaii.org/home/butlers-web-part-2-who-is-gabbards-guru It involved "pure deovtee" Katyayani and William Peneroza, old Butler devbots and also disciples of Bhaktivedanta.

Later attempts in politics by Butler were through Reed, Nishiki, and the one and only Mike Gabbard and eventually Mikes Daughter, born and raised in the cult. I was around for those years and as I have mentioned before we were all told to vote for these clowns and defy the meaning of democracy.

Bhaktivednatas' many lectures and letters focus on establishing the so-called vedic society. To say it was a passing thought was disingenuous. The swmai praised the system of social governance, touted and promoted dictatorship-style governance in many purports, lectures and letters and private and pubic talks.

This is the only rational explanation for trying to spread a cult like this. Because if the fundamental ideology that they hope to spread is that people should simply chant gods names and dance and worship their specific blue God, then there's definitely more creative ways to get people interested in doing that.

If you have ever seen the production of the show Shen Yun (and it's vigorous and ambitious ad campaigns on every billboard in every damn town and village, you will see that such an avenue has a lot more prospects in affecting and influencing people to take a look at your group.

Entering politics in this day and age for any Gaudiya Vaishnava group is going to come under a tremendous amount of heat. Reporters and politicians will dig deep and expose the many aberrations and flaws within such institutions as we saw with the Gabbard fiasco. Eventually. all it leads to is tarnishing the cult's reputation even more. And then there is no going back since everything is online these days.

As I have always said, what business do devotees have playing politics? The lifestyle and entire concept behind gaudiya vaishnava philosophy is the furthest thing from the political sphere that one can get. It's the furthest thing from reality you can get, but that is another story.

All that aside and without giving my personal opinion and input too dramatically about the matter, I hope I have exemplifies how there is a rather straight line in this cult of interest in politics and political agendas.

Do with that information as you like. At the end of the day, politics is a game of ego and worldly affairs. There's hardly any way to get around the fact that one would have to play into the dirty hands of many in order to even mildly succeed as a Gaudiya vaishnava politician (some of you have pointed out the fact that abortion rights and other "difficult" areas have to be addressed in such a position that would go directly against the tenants of such a faith.

Ultimately politics is a game of ego and power/control. And to see so many devotees go absolutely crazy over Tulsi Gabbard and swarm all of the forums in a fanatical craze of support simply shows that they are truly not concerned about any sort of spiritual endeavors. Which begs the question, how much potency does their path really have if after 20, 30, 40 years a person is still enamored to get involved in the political game? What kind of nectar are they really tasting if they're going towards something so messy, distasteful and dirty.

Anyway, my ¢2. I am not here to argue about this stuff. The above is facts. You can research the details of things yourself and draw your own conclusions. Ultimately I am not on board with fanatical religious ideology and its rigidness of thought. It creates artificial systems that do not have a uniform outcome for all and many times cause harm in the process. I have written about my views about this cult from the philosophical angles and history etc. I have discussed abuses as well.

My opinion on so-called mystical experience is in agreement with most of you. Whatever thing the mind/brain/body generates that is interpreted as a "mystical" event beyond rational explanation is simply your own private affair and meant for you alone. It has little to no functional use to others.

On that note, the so-called mystical revelation of ones "eternal form" as a 12 year old manjari girl, which is the epitome of the religious experience offered by the chaitanya saint and the Gaudiya cult, is pretty much that: A mystical experience not likely shared uniformly by any group of people (if any in reality) hence nothing to be preached widely and "spread in every town and village". If mystical experiences are private and relatable only to the person having them, why create a cult trying to convince everyone that it's the highest attainment of a relationship with divinity?

Religious ideas are useful. They have their place. Where does this religious idea have a place? What is useful about it? The end result is a homophobic guru and a swami that thinks the moon is bigger than the sun. They may have "succeeded" spiritually, but down here, on earth, they have failed and are simply prisoners to their idiocy in their tin foil paradise.

I vote for pedro. And then I run.

@Culthusiast

I am not so well versed about the origins of Dvaita school of thought. Commentaries on the scriptures in the light of Dvaita are also not so good available in English language. Not many scholars translated Dvaitic commentaries into English. Most Vaishnava groups count themselves under the Dvaita doctrine, since it talks about Vishnu as the Supreme deity. It was established approx. 500 years after Advaita (by philosopher Madhvacharaya) as an anti - advaitic interpretation of the Vedanta scriptures. This means the Brahma Sutras, the Upanishads and the Bhagavad-Gita - only. Dvaita school of thought claims that the human soul is eternally individual and can never become one with God, because it is fundamentally different from God. The soul is eternally dependent on God and will only gain relief by complete acknowledgment of God as the Supreme. Then the soul can serve God in eternity.More can be found in the Web, for sure. In universities, so far from my experience, dvaita is mentioned in introduction courses about Indian philosophy. But as I said, the academic and primary source material available in English translation is far more scarce than for Advaita, Vishishtadvaita, Yoga or Buddhism.

@ Run
I can agree that ISCKON and their peers have really modified the bhakti path and Vaishnava dvaita philosophy into something absurd and fantastical. It is rather a revilement of any serious philosophical school of Indian philosophy. It is made to manipulate Westners with a Christian mindset and has very little to do with most Eastern onthology and philosophical ways of thinking. Nevertheless I am not a big proponent of our Western culture as well and our understanding of rationality and truth is as flawed as any understanding that is available in this world. Nothing is superior. And the one who claims to be superior already failed or at any time should be looked upon in a suspicious way. Western philosophy and science started out as an proponent of relative truth, so is the understanding in Eastern philosophy as well. Claiming superiority by holding the absolute is always embedded into a paradigm of power, control and discrimination and our society is indulging in this paradigm with great joy, thinking we know everything more and better than Eastern and South Eastern cultures and philosophies. That's why ISCKON was so successful. It is a megalomaniac theology for megalomaniac Western people who don't understand how important humbleness and ambiguity is. And that the world needs that more, than another monotheism serving motives of greed, inferiority etc.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2022 04:46AM by Frozen Nick91.