RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is countless examples of things like
> this. Butler routinely called his female followers
> dykes, cunts, bitches, and any manner of
> derogatory expletives.

In general, lectures in Poland - even these complete cassette bookshelves - were mostly deprived of lectures with such statements, although there were some. There are confirmed accounts of people that somewhere through their skin they suspected that the reality on "on-site" was not so rosy.

The very level of behavior with these insults, of course, is too low to be considered a normal family or friendly relationship, let alone a "spiritual" master-student, etc.

Interestingly, Mr. Papa Dolphin liked to say often that, for example, talking about the lower truth taught in SIF is "extremely offensive". What is the evidence for. As you can see, insults of kind above are not extremely offensive.

Our friends from SIF reading this thread..What do you think to quote this words on your Facebook profiles? Even your last narrative tells you not to avoid difficult topics? If you have a sincere desire, please contact us on priv. We will arrange the details ... Quote, date of the lecture, minute of the lecture, link to the proof ...


RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
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> Disciples are ignorant or chose to ignore it
> because they are told their guru is perfect. How
> powerful is a spiritual process when a guru as
> "pure" as Saraswati Thakur are blaming their
> disciple that they want them to "fall down"
> because mama and sister are in the room. But the
> disciple blindly cowers and feels guilty. What
> foolishness. One should immediately question what
> power and spiritual advancement is this to have
> such a level of fear and paranoia of developing
> sexual desire for ones own sister and old mother
> if left alone in a room

This is controversial and strange. On the one hand, a high level of spiritual advancement would suggest indifference or not succumbing to attraction. The teachings, on the other hand, say that attraction to sense objects remains as long as mother and sister can be "sense objects" - and not even attractive persons.

In practice, the subject is scientifically deeper. There is sometimes an individual strong sexual attraction towards siblings, hence there were social and religious limitations and restrictions.

This attraction may be justified in such aspects as telegony. That is, the genetic material of the mother at the birth of the first child came from only one partner, but for example, as a result of adultery, it varied. Thus, siblings, in spite of a possible common father, do not necessarily have a "brotherhood-sister" system of genes.

The science already prooved a presence of DNA material in woman's body from different partners through life.



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2022 03:46AM by Culthusiast.

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for this post. I will refer to several aspects in a fragmentary way.


> I think in general the mood is becoming
> more inclusive of women and their roles as
> leaders. But scripturally, the psychology is
> reinforced that women are in some way the fall of
> man.

Of the few contacts I had or heard in turn, these were situations where the preachers were previously married sanyasis. In one well-known case, the sanyasi and his wife, or better to describe it, played important roles around the temple, but without close intimacy.


> Is the man that weak that he will become sexually
> aroused by his own aging mother???? This is the
> underbelly fabric ideology binding these cults
> together.

From the point of view of the relationship of a future and later monk with his mother, this is unlikely in the civilized world. However, unfortunately, when it comes to pathological environments, there are rapes of old people.

> The biggest lacking in all these institutions
> is proper psychological care and counseling with
> the cult's structure making it very insular no
> matter how non-centralized it gets. In a cult that
> is predicated on the idea of service and
> surrender, abuses and disparities, as well as
> feelings of discontent, are natural to arise.
> There is nothing in place to deal with this
> fallout except naive instructions to "chant and
> serve" more and more. This is the basic final
> answer to everything.


This is especially evident in the early stages of the sect. One can, of course, blame it on being "kanistha-adhikari", but it can be confirmed. The cases of insensitivity in SiF / SoI Poland can of course be presented.


> The mythical spaceman, Narada
> Muni, is a fictional character. Unless you accept
> that a man who plays a Vina (an instrument only
> invented some 2-3000 years ago at best) is able to
> travel in intergalactic space. so I have not much
> to say on why the stories authors chose to have
> him be a character that did not take on women
> disciples, other than they themselves subscribed
> to misogyny and found women to be less
> intelligent, the cause of spiritual fall down and
> other foolish nonsense ideas.

The main point, however, is that if you stick to the idea of Parampara and the knowledge coming from the top of the line of succession, you should not undermine the teachings of your great-great-great-spiritual grandfather.


> In Butler's gurukula it
> was not far off. Students were unnecessarily
> separated from parents, at the height of puberty
> asked to live together and abide by strict
> schedules, heavy ideology and physical and mental
> austerity that had nothing to do with spiritual
> life or anything meaningful to experience at that
> age. It was at best a highly unnatural environment
> that left most of us confused, dictated by guilt,
> fear, anxiety and stress. We returned to the west
> with little to no formal education or ability to
> enter into public schools or universities without
> being at a disadvantage and handicap. Our
> education consisted of 80% useless education. We
> had to play catch-up and re-learn the ways of
> society. We all left with a completely false and
> skewed sense of the world around us. Our parents
> "served" butler while we suffered. That is all
> that brahmacari life was to us. We were tended to
> at the bare minimum to our survival needs. We
> lived in filth, mold, and crappy food. I've
> written about my time there as have others. I have
> friends who went to ISKCON gurukulas, some while
> prabhupada was still alive, who were molested and
> beat and forced to eat their own vomit routinely.

Horror.


> In Butler's gurukula in the Philippines, there
> were a good number of boys that were
> psychologically damaged and had no support or
> professional and qualified help. They suffered. I
> have friends from ISKCON gurukulas who were raped,
> physically and verbally abused.

Horror


> In the Butler gurukula, Haridas Tamayo and his
> cousin, Narashinga "Nash" Tamayo were fortunate in
> that their parents/siblings/relatives were there
> and they received affection and an otherwise
> normal upbringing of social interactions with
> family and friends.

> Siddha das was spoiled. He
> took hot baths, was massaged and otherwise
> pampered.


What a practical realization of the idea of "spiritual equality". No nationality, race or religion. But it is the young prince who is massaged, so corrupted in this equality that he flees to prostitutes ...


> The rest of us were often wet, dirty and
> living in a constant state of stress, anxiety and
> tension. We were waking up at 4am, taking cold
> bucket showers and filing into a dark temple room
> where we mindlessly chanted for hours while
> nodding off to sleep, listening repeatedly to
> butlers rants and lectures and being told that
> fantastical myths from the "vedas" were "fact".
> Our time "outside" was spent preaching and
> book-distributing. We had harsh disciplines for
> minor transgressions, were humiliated, embarrassed
> and shamed. Older boys like siddha das taunted us,
> bullied us and created a dangerous environment by
> bringing venereal diseases back to the school that
> they caught from prostitutes (Jai hoe!). We lived
> in constant fear of committing sin, displeasing
> our spiritual master who we never ever saw even
> once at the school.

Horror


> We have seen time
> and again that even from the time of
> Bhaktisidhhanta to Butler, initiation was held
> like a carrot fro some disciples, but for others,
> usually, those who proved to have some
> talent/skill/money, they were initiated promptly.

Yes. The mechanism on the basis of which the granted initiations were the subject of observation of myself and other people who admitted it after many years. Cited here are extreme examples of uninitiated women who were very devoted - working in the center, cooking, caring for deities, etc. The guest, being well received, had the feeling of being the proverbial parasite. These were my feelings. E.g. simple quiet girls. I will not give you a name. Interestingly, they were even able to respond adequately to provocative phone calls to the center, especially after lectures on sex. I remember a story, when a horny guy called the center and there a quiet devotee woman simply helped him with her narrative. she has no initiation to this day. On the other hand, initiations were given to people from subsequent recruitment waves, whose opinion was that they have 2 left hands. Well, the recommendation of an important leader quickly gave them this opportunity and privilege. Higher caste label.

At first I thought these various mechanisms would be identified, but it turned out to be a repeating pattern. Party, caste, hierarchy, benefits from contacts with those higher in the hierarchy. As far as they can be called benefits ..

Of course, the initiation controversy in SiF is known. In SiF there was a problem distinguishing harinama initation from diksha. Thereafter there were some brahminical initiations.

The Sanyasis were not seen, much less (at all) traditional babajis.

But it is "sir" initiation. I wonder why the reference to aristocratic England.

Sir Acharya das. Sir Balakhilya das. Master Acharya Servant. Master Balakhilya Servant.

Ecclesiastical initiation

"Let's play ... Master and Servants". Depeche Mode?

Maybe it should be SIF Acharya das. Such independent initiation ... A new tradition.


> However, Lord Caitanya's greatest gift was His
> teaching that Krsna can be treated as one's lover.

This quote is controversial and inconsistent with the concept that the main role achieved or siddha-swarupa is in the form of manjari. It has been heard that the mood of a gopis having a direct relationship with Krishna can be obtained in the Nimbarka lineage, but whites are not accepted.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2022 04:25AM by Culthusiast.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> business? I am very curious to know how so we know
> that top dogs were also involved?

It is certain that in the late 1990s, police officers from the anti-drug group came to at least one of the centers in Poland after the Paramahamsa das incident.

I will add two more observations.

From the profiles of the female leaders mentioned earlier, I remember two more. One of the early leaders - very nice - chose to get married and go to a rich country. In turn, decades later, one of the leaders or activists, an attractive new wave dancer, was criticized by the previous leader for actions "not bona-fide" because not consulted with the previous leader. Among these activities there were, among others visiting children in orphanages, prasada, dances, gifts, etc. Which shows the scale of the internalization of "party mechanisms". It was after the centers were dissolved.

The second issue is a Polish legend - a sanyasin, that was gently criticized in the environment by the former leader for impersonating SIF Poland, competing or proselytizing. As if it was a monopoly on teaching in Poland, only SIF Poland had a kind of spiritual power. (in public).

The former leader completely forgot that the teaching is the same, it was this sanyasi who was building ISKCON Polska in the 1970s. In addition, he is criticized being a sanyasi in at least two lines with siksha also from traditional line teachers, so the question is why words of criticism or subtle offenses fell from the mouth of a person after diksha initiation, from a line consistent with one of the lines of this sanyasi. They were of course very delicate, but the suggestions were nevertheless made.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2022 04:40AM by Culthusiast.

It wasn't hashish to my knowledge. It was marijuana. As far as the source the information comes from, it is a reliable source who was themselves involved in the whole affair.

But the information that Patrick bowler was giving Drug Money The Fund Butler, his lifestyle and projects was well-known in the cult even to us boys when we were young and obviously to many of butlers close servants. One can say at the time it was somewhat common knowledge. The fact is, we have nothing to gain to make such things up. At the end of the day there's enough evidence that has been shown on this site as well as Christine Gralows research and numerous other first hand and secondhand accounts on this forum.

Well, all of the boys that I went to school with will share a similar story. Some of them were born into it, others were introduced to the cult at a young age by their parents.

Give or take, between the school in the Philippines of which there were several for both boys and girls, as well as the early attempts of the schools in Hawaii and Australia, you have yourself a good 60 to 80 young man and 50 to 60 young women worldwide who grew up in Butler's group and or subject to essentially the same format of indoctrination and ideology as I was.

It is actually pretty amazing what information has been recorded and stored online about this group, its predecessor group and the various groups in this lineage. Some of the information is less jarring than others. Some of it is based on faith. Obviously, I come from an atheistic standpoint so I am not mincing any words in my disdain for what I consider delusional fanaticism.

As I stated before, I am not concerned about those for whom this cult or similar Krishna groups have worked. If it works for you, power to you and Godspeed. But, if you are here, and you are questioning and wondering what it is about these groups that rubs you the wrong way, well I am more than happy to tell you what rubs me the wrong way and what I consider to be a rational, dysfunctional and regressive thinking of absolutely zero use to an individuals life and functional well-being.

As a personality cult, It Takes the Cake in its assertion that the spiritual Master is essentially the same as God. That the spiritual Master is perfect, and cannot be questioned. That the spiritual Master is a transparent medium and representative of God's will on Earth. That the only way to approach God is to surrender to such a personality. That surrender to such a personality can mean an assortment of things ranging from following rules, some of them completely idiotic and useless, to various pointless rituals and allegiance to scriptural rhetoric that is archaic, scientifically wrong and in most cases reprehensible or downright childish and it's moral and ethical offerings.

Many religious movements flourished for any number of reasons. Many God's gained popularity over the course of history and then fall to the Wayside. This is simply a natural cycle of society, the evolution of language, politics, Commerce and assorted social religious Arrangements. The psychology of the people changes over time and is more susceptible and receptive to different types of influences. The fact that the Hari Krishna movement florist in the 60s in America is not some kind of a surprising event. At the time there were many such Easter and religious movements that had taken hold of the American imagination starting in the 1930s. Prior to the British Invasion of India, there was actually almost no verifiable written record of any Vedic or post Vedic texts. It is actually because of the British and their push to try to understand the Indian religious mindset that such religious works and even revivalist movements started to come to light and try to be documented properly.

India's religious and pluralistic faith systems I've always been an amalgamation of invading Outsiders and slowly evolving sects. Perhaps due to the ideal climate for animal husbandry and agriculture, as well as the temperate climate, it was and ideal place to sit comfortably and start to philosophize about life and the universe. The Greeks also had such luck in their landscape. As civilization flourished and economies developed in city-states, various ways of using religion to control the masses proved to be extremely useful (an extension of tribalism). That there is insight and philosophical depth in scriptures that are thousands of years old is natural. One would hope that some interesting observations on life were there thousands of years ago—people certainly had a ton of time on their hands. Naturally, over a vast amount of time, man gathers an assortment of Knowledge from his environment and thought. As language evolved and allows us to use metaphors to describe more complex ideas and Concepts, so did philosophy and religion developed in its complexity.

It is less about whether god exists or not or about faith in general for me. If one can have a "personal relationship" with a "personal god", that god should make the first move in a personal way. I have nothing explicitly dictating my role in life as being a "lover" of a god. I was not born into this world believing in a god. God is a concept that was forced into my brain. The things I say about this cult are things I realized that did not add up. The burden of proof is on the person making the bold claims. All I can do is deconstruct it and say, "hey, this right here—does not make sense and fit into any rational framework". The fact is there are too many ifs ands or buts in this cult. It's not that some small thing is questionable or odd. The whole package reeks to me. Again, if it works for you or aspects of it do, that is great. Faith is a private affair. I have faith in things that provide plausible answers, not things that sound interesting on the surface but fall apart upon closer questioning.

When I challenge the idea that Saraswati thakur was claiming he would "fall down" by being left in the room with his own mother or sister and blaming his disciple for putting him in some position where he may become secually aroused by his own mother, I am not challenging that he was an intelligent man or a viable religious authority on his faith. I am challenging what type of mentality that is. Why, if he is a self-realized, perfected pure devotee is he even suggesting or expressing such a despicable notion and idea??? If even he, who is presumably a topmost Vaishnava is somehow susceptible to base animal instincts, one has to question, what type of potency and power and effect does his spiritual system, mantras and other beliefs have that are positive and progressive and rewarding in any way? When you look at pictures of such a person and see that they never smile and you read lectures and transcripts of his words/talks/lectures and see that he is constantly critical of other vaishnava groups, always suggesting only his approach is right and that he gave himself diksha and sanyas initiations and introduced the brahman threat ritual, one has to rationally ask what this is all about. One has to ask how it is rational or functional to propose a philosophy that suggests that the top-most realization a person can have of their experience with the "divine" is to become some sort of 12 year old farm girl (https://www.mahanidhiswami.com/siddha-pranali-the-truth/) who assist in helping an otherwise fairly recent goddess addition of even the Krishna lexicon, Radha, get off? If one does not question this and see how it is all rather sloppy and silly in its conception then we have a problem. When a few babjis in India believe this crap, that is one thing. When you have a movement that essentially promotes a process of fantasy derealization and delusional ideation of "spiritual forms" and alternate universes, you have a cult and a ball buster one at that.

Listen to this clown: for example and watch his channel [www.youtube.com]. This is a first-class delusional nut job. No way to say it otherwise. He is on social media explaining how one can realize their manjari body or jerk off to god. It's madness and it is firmly rooted in some way shape and form in the ideation of so-called manjari bhava, and raghanuga. And a TON of devotees are into this stuff not as a conscious role play thing or some form of entertainment—they literally think it's real. That's fucking scary. If you already suffer from mental illness it's dangerous.

The point here is this: There are many more rational places to extract good, practical and applicable wisdom in life than texts and personalities that are asking you to give up your critical thinking and subscribe wholesale to an ideology that can make an utter mess of your perception of reality.

Another aspect caught my attention - in connection with the letters of Chris Butler, dissatisfied with the over 20-person kitchen crew and meals - archival reports.

If the core of the group consisted as the effect of applied MLM recruitment techniques, then it must be remembered that the purpose of MLM structures is - selling - not - cooking.

Creating the appearance, apparent effectiveness and value of products is somehow embedded in this technique / methodology of acquiring members / narration.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2022 07:18PM by Culthusiast.

Sorry, what is MLM?

I actually do not really comprehend your last post. What does Butler needing a legion of personal servants and 14 page list of rules extorting his followers for money have to do with selling?

The hare krishna cults like SIF have no recourse other than to appeal to the mundane selling tactics used by any number of other successful "eastern" yoga groups. No one would ever join one of these groups if you wrote on the door a sign that says:

Come in! Here you will realize your eternal true form as a 12 year old farm girl lover of the blue god krishna and his older aunt Radha. By repetitively chanting some "transcendental" mantras, and surrounding your life to a guru you will never meet, your life will become perfect!"

So, you know, they have to dress it all up in what actually attracts most people to any community: Friendship, good food, singing and dancing and playing instruments. Throw in a hatha yoga class and some enthusiastic smiling devotees and, voila!

Anyway, let me know what this MLM is. Sorry for my ignorance.

Multi-level marketing:

[en.wikipedia.org]

And related sales techniques, persuasion etc. Meetings of sellers, arousing enthusiasm, faith in the product and sales methods, etc. Often the mood of a sect and in practice the sects are centered around the product and the idea of the happiness of money.

SIF? Joseph Bismark "Japa das", formal owner of some SIF properties. Other? Rainbow vacuum cleaner etc.

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
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> Come in! Here you will realize your eternal true
> form as a 12 year old farm girl lover of the blue
> god krishna and his older aunt Radha. By
> repetitively chanting some "transcendental"
> mantras, and surrounding your life to a guru you
> will never meet, your life will become perfect!"

If you are not satisfied with the vision of happiness as a 12-year-old Gopi, then at least you may like the vision of happiness after pressing the next customer read the "victim" of the best product and money brings you happiness ... Simple techniques, rising income ...No so simple but anyway...

There are those in SIF Poland who have been involved in it. Eg healing patches. The narrative accompanying the presentation of these patches was so convincing that you could even be sure that if you went to the cemetery and stuck the patches on the deceased's forehead, he would get up in no time.

A slightly worse product than "Prana +". Because with this one it is enough to psst it i.e. on deceased grandmother. And the patch always needs to be rested and attached. "Welcome back Grandy!".

In Poland, devotees were morally higher, at least honest, selling souvenirs on famous streets, not some chemicals, but souvenirs, no matter what. For example, "elephants of happiness".

One devotee was selling "elephants of happines". A woman asks him: what is it? Aaaaa these are "elephants of happines". How does it work? You lady buy it and that makes me happy ...

But since we are on esoterics, I know short assessments of SiF / SoI or leaders from a few clairvoyants or esoterics:

- clairvoyant 1 - the presence of black magic in SoI/SiF or people around
- clairvoyant 2 - initial acceptance, then distance
- clairvoyant 3 - evaluation: masters steal energy
- clairvoyant 4 - evaluation of the introductory years of Chris Butler - positive
- clairvoyant 5 - egregor
- clairvoyant 6- egregor
- esoteric 1 - about J.B. Midget aka Balakhilya das "very weak energetically"
- clairvoyant 7 - too much focus on tamic (tamas) topics and then too much integration with the group in Hawaii



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2022 05:20AM by Culthusiast.

It has been a bit since I posted last. As this is the #1 posted topic on the forum it proves that this cult is a cult. Lets be clear, the cult attracted damaged people like most/all organized religions. These damaged people raised their kids under the influence of this maniac Chris Butler. It is really sad to see how this cult has damaged and ripped families apart. The members of the cult have no regard for anything on this planet. They see all of this "existence" as they are being punished. "this world is not your home" is very damaging and like other Christian cults there is another place that is better. Look at the current state of the world and this mindset is not exclusive to the Butler Cult.. it is prevalent in many other forms of "faith" but this mindset is very prominent inside the inner guts of the butler cult. they gain power with the us against them mentality. they feed off of it and it shows how damaged all of the butler cult devotees are. As an individual who was raised in this sh$t show of a cult it is madness when looking back how I thought it was normal. At one time I bowed to Butler and now I have zero compassion for him, it is pure disgust.

AC4711 Wrote:
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> The members of the cult
> have no regard for anything on this planet.

There is a wide spread here. The behavior of the former leaders of SiF Polska, whose narrative at public lectures said that "buying a house in a good district of the city" is an expression of materialism is already legendary. Years later they did the same. Or trying to buy an apartment for several years as if it were a place of eternal rest. It's hard to say what some people respect, what they believe, etc.

However, when comparing the leaders to some sanyasis, the tolerance of these sannyasis is legendary.

On the other hand, in a general sense, a man who notices the flaws and limitations of the world, the multitude of religions, suspects anthropomorphism and one seeks this absolute or tries to move in a short period of existence without losing a sense of humanity and perhaps go in the right direction, the conclusions may be as follows:

- regardless of religion, the foundation must be universal moral principles - based on compassion,

- for regulation, they can manifest themselves in human societies or systems as a law (reference to the Law)

-> Yama analog

Then, insight allows us to find out about the imperfection of human emotions, gravity, and the consequences associated with it. Motorisms and disadvantages of the human psyche and mind. Dychotomy etc..

-> Niyama analog

An attempt to grasp reality based on imperfect senses is the development of science, better senses, an attempt to analyze reality, proving by logic, inferring. Mathematics, models etc...

-> Samkhya, Nyaya analogs

This set may be some kind of attempt to get closer to the Absolute but without looking into a potential transdenental reality which is by definition beyond perception and understanding.

Nevertheless, FINAL CONCLUSION: if one does not follow the basics - Yama - in practice and neglects the others - as an authority MUST BE REJECTED.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2022 07:43PM by Culthusiast.

For fanatical cult ignorants. What Gita says:

BG 2.16: Of the transient there is no endurance, and of the eternal there is no cessation. This has verily been observed and concluded by the seers of the Truth, after studying the nature of both.

Both, both, both...