it is pathetic that when today we ask comrades of early days C. Butler who give lectures and kirtans on Facebook as spiritual authorities - do you know P. Bowler - they say no, we don not know him. Then how is it possible you HAVE HIM in your Facebook friends.

No one knows nobody no how. Never did never will.

Still FB profiles screen-shoots we have...

Once one is deep into this cult there are many aspects that are dehumanizing.

One of the main things in my experience is actually deeply rooted in the bhajan and general forced mood of humility found in a lot of prayers of the guru's.

It is not uncommon to read such texts and see a level of self deprivation that borders on pathological. References to oneself being lower than a work in stool, like an ass or a dog and other such metaphors create a vortex of dehumanizing imagery. Often times for no good reason. In the case of vyasa puja offerings to gurus, one hears disciples groveling in such false humility in letter after letter–often read publicly in front of the guru or compiled for all to see in visa puja offering books.

Concepts of deep worthlessness, hopelessness, dispair as well as self deprecating remarks of oneself being a demon or sense enjoyer or some other derogatory term abound. How is this good for one mental health over time?

In most cases the devotees stating these types of dehumanizing self reflections have been devotees for many many years. Many are involved in very intimate services to their guru and spend much of their time in so-called devotional service activities. So why such dehumanizing self-talk?

This type of dehumanizing emotion then carries over to their concept of future lives, be that in a so-called "spiritual" body or, more often, in the Gaudiya sect, to be reborn again and again as a lowly dog or grain of sand to be touched by someones foot. In fact it's often a game of "how-low-can-you-go. Devotees will describe that they want to be born again and again lifetime after lifetime as servant of the servant, a thousand times removed. In fact it feels as if one simply cannot conceive of themselves any lower. At that time they will resort to describing themselves as so-called low animals or insects or even inanimate objects like grains of sand or grass or trees.

Even the idea of siddha-swarup (ones eternal spiritual form) is often tainted by this idea that one can be happy eternally as a grain of sand in the spiritual sky. But no one gets into this path cause they want to be a grain of sand for eternity. And somehow all the guru's get to be Gopis or gopas or mother yashodas. The point is, if all these states of top-most self-realization of ones true eternal form are equal in their status (are living entities/jiva in fact equal in the eyes of god by this measure?) or is it a continued process of dehumanizing, hierarchy, and disproportionate sense of worth.

We are told that there is some perverted reflection we can compare this to in the material world, but there is really no material counterpart to such utter self deprecation and dehumanizing self talk. Who can function and live in a permanent state like this in any practical way? The closest thing to it would be slavery, and even in that relationship one tries to find a sense of humanity and dignity. There is no dignity in reflecting on oneself as a worm in stool.

Not to mention, it creates the mentality of a doormat. One envisions ones ideal position as being that which can simply be used endlessly by anyone who deems they are a vaishnava. It's a functional recipe fr mental disaster but also, it build a society that has a massive potential for abuse. In the case of ISKCON it has shown to have a devastating effect. In Butler's group such self deprecation keeps members silenced and paranoid and petrified that they are going somehow ruin their chance for spiritual life unless they grovel in the presence of their teacher.

The fact is we have senses and we enjoy some things and not others. Some people struggle due to excess enjoyment of some specific things others do not (there are plenty of fat devotees not mention devotees who are addicted to intoxication—the swami himself was a daily user of tobacco snuff; Butler needs ample tin foil to feel at peace).

Butler and Prabhupada often paint this one dimensional picture of humanity as a bunch of reckless sense enjoying animals devoid of ethical boundaries and moral codes and self regulation. But is this really what you see around you when you look at the world and the many types of people in it? Naturally we have senses and enjoy this or that, but these guru's make it out that without their Krishna mumbo jumbo somehow life spirals out of control into a giant mess of sense gratification. That's not just narrow minded and incorrect, it's manipulative. There are many people who don't follow the Krishna religion and are not a bunch of mindless sense gratification automatons. There are many spiritual paths that yield a sense of pride, dignity and lift ones sense of gratitude and happiness without groveling on the ground in front of your guru waiting for a speck of dust to fall from his feet on your mouth.

It's one thing to be humble in the presence of true knowledge and talent, it's a whole other ball game to eat your guru's toenail clippings because you are a worthless dog who deserves the worst treatment possible, for eternity.

There are countless lectures of Bhaktivedanta and Butler that paint this false narrative and it's almost laughable reading/hearing it. In this below snippet the swami literally admits to considering himself to be so high that he has no karma and that his suffering is only due to the actions of his disciples. How delusional and preposterous? Butler did the same thing. He claimed he was sinless and that his health problems were directly resulting from his disciples. Wonder where he learned that complete truck load of horseshoe idea?

[vanisource.org]|in|the|stool

RUN people.

Geez, I thought I'd seen it all. Arranged marriages 2.0.

[devoteematch.com]

Most butler devotee marriages, if they don't end in divorce, are pretty much all within the cult. Tulsi's lasted about a year before she was on to the next one. Citing "the heavy cost of war" as a major issue for things not working out (Wonder if the Pandavas left their wife due to the heavy cost of war?). You'd think with all the Divorce booklets butler wrote in his Life-force series something would work, but alas.

Apparently marrying outside the cult really chops Butler's hide. It's already hard enough for him to carry his followers karmic baggage, let alone a demonic lusty spouse!

Meanwhile in not-too-distant Goloka, the lord is on his 16,108th wife with the occasional booty call to the married farm girls of vraja.

Tie up your sneakers firmly. Ready. Set...

This article claims Butler is deceased:

[bylinetimes.com]

If so, this is his amazing legacy. An article on the dangers of hinduttva, featuring a picture of Trump/Modhi, and some choice words from butler's many colorful lectures as well as direct ties to his political pawn, Tusli "Republicrat" Gab-Bard.

Holy cow. God does indeed have a sick sense of humor.

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This type of dehumanizing emotion then carries
> over to their concept of future lives, be that in
> a so-called "spiritual" body or, more often, in
> the Gaudiya sect, to be reborn again and again as
> a lowly dog or grain of sand to be touched by
> someones foot. In fact it's often a game of
> "how-low-can-you-go. Devotees will describe that
> they want to be born again and again lifetime
> after lifetime as servant of the servant, a
> thousand times removed. In fact it feels as if one
> simply cannot conceive of themselves any lower. At
> that time they will resort to describing
> themselves as so-called low animals or insects or
> even inanimate objects like grains of sand or
> grass or trees.

In SiF there was a visible duplicate tendency to exaggerate the flaws of this world, etc. Interestingly, it did not reduce the problems in the cult, but even increased mental problems, changed the standard, i.e. it lowered it, covered it with denial, there were absurdities that would be difficult in normal " materialistic "reality.

I gave an example. One of the unmarried woman devotee in Poland allowed at least 2 other women to live in her own apartment. They were all involved in "devotional service" so money was a shortage. The indebted flat is in decline. As one of them - the owner - had great needs for a relationship, it caused friction between three unmarried women, a commission of the others was formed, which decided that the owner of the apartment should leave it ...

>
> Even the idea of siddha-swarup (ones eternal
> spiritual form) is often tainted by this idea that
> one can be happy eternally as a grain of sand in
> the spiritual sky. But no one gets into this path
> cause they want to be a grain of sand for
> eternity.

This runs counter to the encouragement to adopt or develop Manjari's mood. The very concept of a form in a possible "spiritual" existence is an interesting topic.


> Not to mention, it creates the mentality of a
> doormat.

The doorma mentality is only for ordinary sheep. A lot is forgiven for those higher in the hierarchy.

For example, the leader mentioned by me many times, publicly saying to everyone "you are in your ass again". I was telling another initiated person that it was offensive and she said that "a devotee might be like that" ...


> The fact is we have senses and we enjoy some
> things and not others. Some people struggle due to
> excess enjoyment of some specific things others do
> not (there are plenty of fat devotees not mention
> devotees who are addicted to intoxication—the
> swami himself was a daily user of tobacco snuff;
> Butler needs ample tin foil to feel at peace).

This is true. In nature it is evident that the contact of the senses with sense objects, or simply objects, brings about sensations. The fact is noticed by the Vaishnava philosophy that it does not bring happiness. On the other hand, the separation of this pleasure is technically limited. Covid, disease, damaged nerves, etc. "This is what is" using the language of Buddhist philosophy.

> Tulsi's lasted about a year before she was on to
> the next one. Citing "the heavy cost of war" as a
> major issue for things not working out (Wonder if
> the Pandavas left their wife due to the heavy cost
> of war?).

Sure. Vedic woman leaves her husband to take part in an aggressive war where weapons of mass destruction have not been found. As a clerk. She courageously did not take part in skirmishes and patrols, bravely exposing herself to allegations of cowardice by her companions.

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This article claims Butler is deceased:
>
> [bylinetimes.com]

If deceased - question since when.

Well, for the purpose of this discussion, Butler, in his followers minds, could have easily died years ago. If you look at it from a Vaishnava stand point, you had gurus like Puri Maharaj preaching till he was 100+. Many others preach well into their 80s and 90s. Butler has holed himself up in a beachfront villa years ago. That's as dead as it gets for having a personal connection with your teacher.

As far as this article goes I think it's a mistake and journalistic laziness. But it is curious.

I'm glad you admit that the fundamental goal of gaudiyas is manjeri bhav. However, there is lack of any clarity as to if one has any say in the matter of realizing their true eternal form in Shanta rasa or madhurya (free will? Or fate?). Basically, it's a perpetuation of an unformed idea. Much of these types of half formed, sounds-good-on-the-surface ideas abound in gaudy tradition. But upon closer inspection it falls apart with little to no substance or meaning. I'm not one to throw out the baby with the bath water, but when many things do not add up it reflects poorly on the whole package. When half there stuff they peddle starts to sound like they make it up on the spot to suite their narrative, it starts to feel like the cult it is.

When Bhaktivedanta is claiming in a publicly available lecture that he is "above" karma and that his suffering is caused by his disciples bad deeds, I want a bit more answers and they better not change every time I ask the question. Case I gotta be honest, Butler did the same garbage. He claimed he was suffering because his followers actions. And he used that rhetoric to demonize and humiliate and embarrass/shame them. And we were all scared of that as n irrevocable reality. You have to understand, this type of thinking has a way more profound and deeply implicated effect on a child's mind than it does on a adult who randomly joined the cult later in life. Many of my gurukuli godbrothers literally believed in a half-man half lion avatar and tattooed it on their body because they felt it protected them from "Maya". Needless to say they are all firmly rooted in some material endeavor or other not to mention smoking pot or drinking or whatever else. So, you know, that tattoo is not a powerful as they had faith in. You don't even know how much formative shaming I witnessed among my Brahmachari friends proceeded by "Srila Prabhupada said..." as a justification for the bullying to follow.

According to Bhagavad Gita one must come closer to self realised person, ask questions and serve with devotion. I asked people - how many letters you wrote and how many replies. None. 25, 30 years. So what are you doing man???

Jagad Guru and disciples karma? I read letters. Thos from early days. Many expectations. Somehow to build a new second Iskcon. And failure. Not suprised. Or another way - it was impossible with people earlier ganja smokers and surfers. Finally admitted two twings. Guru is attracting specific people as he attracts. And second - no lalana. Go to grandfather.

Manjari bhav. When i started to look around more i got to know Ananta das Babaji teachings.

Wow. There is kamanuga bhakti and sambandhanuga bhakti. Should follow specific guru. Wow.

And what in the cult? I wrote this. On retreat dancing around pictures of Krishna in different pastimes. There is word for it - rasa basa.

One Sanyasi told - find specific guru according rasa that suits you. Or you get schizophrenia.

Also i learned wow - traditional line babajis and Srila Bhaktivinode line.etc.etc.

My personal experience go 2 different or more directions.

Anyway, some explanation:
[m.facebook.com]

Gaudiya Sampradaya, Caitanya - get manjari bhav.

Why Caitanya in certain time did not want to spend much time with dear Nityananda?

What to have direct contact with Krishna - go to Nimbarka. Dont accept whites? Sorry.

There are gopis sakhis. Some serve The Holy Pair but love Sri Radha more, and some Sri Krishna more. And other diveristy in mood and atractions. And who is Candravali?

Mickiewicz polish-lithuanian bard could be interpreted in Switezianka that Candravali is Radha herself. Testing Krishna...or that another girl is Maya. And so on.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2021 01:00PM by DaWatcher.

Rasa basa, or mixing of so-called mellows/relationships/moods, is again, a seemingly nice concept, but falls apart when examined in practical detail.

If a so-called spiritual alternate world exists, and this world is a perverted reflection of that world, it begs the question: In what relationship scenario in the material world is it so rigid that one cannot "mix" rasas? I certainly can be a friend at times to my partner, other times a lover, other times a servant and other times both in awe and displeasure with them. The same goes for any number of relationships. With friends I can be simply comfortable in their presence, other items of service and still other time a more removed role, like a business partner, or a parental figure to their kids. So, rasa basa is simply how relationships manifest.

How does one assess if they are following the right guru for the right "rasa"? Remember, this is a philosophy that says you can't really trust your mind or common sense and everything is under the influence of some Maya force. Can you switch mid-way and decide that you are not too keen on Sakhya rasa and prefer Vatsalya style guru? When and how is all this revealed? How does one truly know if they are being guided by a gods will versus their own whim?

Also, the trouble with the move is that it is hardly a universal process. You can be chanting for years with no benefit if your mantra is not reviewed form a pure devotee or if you are unknowingly committing some offense. You can be with the wrong rasa guru for years. What a waste of everyones time and energy. Only to find out you are really feeling more Shanta than Sakhya...

Schizophrenia is a mental disorder. So is this sanyasi saying that these "rasa" are simply figments of our imagination? All mental play? That is certainly what I believe. Though, scientifically, one does not "get" schizophrenia from role playing.

The characters you speak of, Chandravai and Radha are recent creations in the Krishna pantheon/mythos. By recent I mean like in the last 1000 years at most these characters have made some way into the Krishna lore. So characters like Chaitanya being an avatar of the two moieties is simply a 400-500 year old invention of a subject devotional Bengali cult. Not mentioned in any "veda" or even puranic texts. So more akin to say Mormonism in its development as a theology and philosophical idealism.

A philosophy that promotes that god is a trickster who can change the rules at any moment is not something that anyone can hold on to in any meaningful process. And, it attributes very human qualities to a divinity essentially saying that such a being is full of desires, wants, needs and essentially not self satisfied. Hence, no god at all. at least not in the classic sense of the word.

Concepts of god testing us or the devotee not seeing god as god and testing him or other such transcendental gaslighting is part of the problem with how this trickles down to the gurus as well. A typical guru in todays SIF or ISKCON is viewed as playing out their "pastimes". Devotees swoon when hearing a story of some guru behaving in some way that would normally be viewed as childish, naive or even irrational. "Oh gurudev is just exhibiting his "snuff" Lila" and so on. "Oh, Srila Prabhupada is like a lion in his attraction to Krishna so he is trying to smash the demon faggots and muslims! Jai Jai Jai!"

This type of thing is downright scary. I'm sorry that some of you do not see it for what it is. It all starts with a "chant and be happy", but ends here. Grown men discussing the philosophical mechanics and implications of schizophrenic role playing, masquerading as some eternal deep teaching. It's a sad sad joke.

The Gita as lovely as it is, has many verse promoting caste division. A scourge plaguing India to this day in many parts. The Gita has many verse supporting brahmin superiority and characters like Manu who's Samhita is a fanatical religious book of caste division and archaic laws with verses promoting disfiguring women and lower castes for what amounts to NOTHING. The Gita is a fictional tale that would have you believe that god pulled up a chariot in the middle of a battlefield and rattled on for two hours between opposing armies about offering him a fruit and flower, among many such odd tangents. The text has some good philosophical ideas, no doubt, but lets be serious about it having any cohesive value beyond some pleasant soundbites. The fact that butler devotees have stuck around pathetically for 25-40 years without any contact with their "living" guru is not because they misunderstood the Gita's text on how to approach a guru or because of some "Sindhis" on his part. They just missed the whole point of everything in life because they have willingly disabled their curiosity and natural questioning instinct. Some say it's because Butler has some mystic siddhi to control such people, but I beg to differ. I think he had charisma. He used really basic mind control tactics to convince followers that if they were not loyal to him they would somehow loose the "prize". He kept them in a state of fear of leaving him not much unlike the way an abusive spouse keeps a partner around. He played on their vulnerability and emotional weakness which is even further promoted and disabled due to the very process and rituals. Things like repetitive chanting and other "rote" behaviors have been shown to disengage defensive areas of the brain. Areas of the brain that would light up with red flags under normal circumstances that they are in danger or in the least being fooled. All these rituals do is create a docile effect on the brain so that there is no ability to ask rational questions and even think very deeply about what the heck you are even doing.

No rational and sane person would start dressing in medieval Indian clothes in the year 2021, shave their head and leave some little tail-hair and wrap their neck tightly with wood beads and give all of their time, money and energy to such a complete cheesy fiction if not for the very mechanics at work in such groups core beliefs and ritualism.

The Babaji you are referring to is known to be a pusher of siddha pranadnli. No surprise there. Bhaktivinode also took Siddha Pranali and revealing of Bhaktisiddhanta's "eternal" manjari form was also common knowledge revealed by his followers. Where and how are these silly rumors started and why is no one questioning it and asking for rational validation? Are we simply to believe at face value that such and such person has some spiritual body of a 12 year old cow-heard farm girl???? These types of spiritual traditions are so deeply rooted in delusions of grandeur and borderline psychosis that it's scary when considering that many of those it attracts are already suffering from mental illness only to be amplified under such conditions. How can it not be?

Run and don't look back if only to shake your head in disbelief that you went that long believing the height of lunacy.

Good luck!