Truth wins Wrote:
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> Even if it is not a trap, it is absolutely soul
> crushing to believe that divinity is so ruthless.


The question is through the eyes we look at. When viewed through the eyes of the dharmic religions, the world is already cruel. Let's take slaughterhouses. And not even meat production. Cases where butchers deliberately broke the legs of calves without need. They played with wailing piglets. In the context of the suffering of beings, the mercilessness of the scriptures pales.

As for Vedanta, it is worth asking why it was gradually "cleansed". Further philosophers, itinerant teachers, acharya. Why Budda undermined the "infallibility of the Vedas".

In detail, let's take a social categorization. Brahman, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. And the excluded are candala. Looking at the standards of behavior, we can exclude the modern community for the most part from this categorization. But vegetarians don't eat dogs. So the classification is too general, too historical. Basically unrealistic. Considering the generations without offerings - mentality, energies in mind. Different.

However, in the context of taking up the practice - meet some Sanyasi or Babaji, spend time with him. You can see what the tests, tadana & lalana mean. There is education, you can hear that you are "ignorant" or "arrogant" but there is also care in the simplest things. There is no question of such clichés as sitting pseudo gurus sprinkled with extras at dinner and students with soup. And other. You can hear fast that love must manifest practically. Of course there are funny events in confrontantion of different cultures of technology standards. Anyway it is not like SIF theory - love in words, and gestapo-like treating.

But still. If we talk about any tradition and meaning of words. When we read:

"Sir Acharya das" - maybe logically? Which operator is stronger..

Sir (Acharya das) or (Sir Acharya) das? "Sir" Lord, stronger than "das" servant. That would make (Sir Acharya) das.

Or we say any vedic "das" is stronger than anglosasi "sir". That would make Sir (Acharya das). Then "sir" is useless...

No "sir"'s in Gaudiya. Traditional lines - babajis, other - sanyasis.

More heresies ... More to be denied.

And where is Radha in "Gopala Govinda Rama Madana Mohana" "mantra".



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2021 02:48AM by DaWatcher.

We all have our own personal experiences and I spoke enough of mine.
If a philosphy presents no dangers, then one should not be careful how it is interpreted. And in whose hands it falls.
I cannot run after saintly people and find the ones who are walking the talk.
Same ways as one should not shop for non pedophile priests.
What is the basis of this religion?
It tells you that you fell from grace and you are responsible for all the crap that happens to you.
Pretty much another version of Adam and Eve messing up.
So there is only a number one. And that number one is Godhead.
We got envious and we were kicked out. Again beautified by the concept of FREE WILL. We were kicked out to play mini lords in the material world.
What is Krishna Consciousness?
Reforming the unruly kids who got envious of God.
How do you do that? By bowing down 20 times a day, chanting the names 24/7, obeying all the rules and a guru that must chastise you 24/7.
In some instances I have heard of a guru I will not name, slapping the disciple.
A guru that is not all over the net and much more qualified that ghe butler kind.
It is all seen as mercy of course. And the PURE DEVOTEE knows what they are doing of course.
So the role of the guru is the one who will teach the spirit soul to be a nice obedient servant.
This is the only way one can go back home. When they realize who their true master is: God.
SoI is a very nauseating version of bhakti yoga. But they were allowed to carry out that mission.
Fear is present in the Vedas, Self loathing is exteremly glorified, giving away the will and life to gurus is encouraged.
So yes I do blame the path partialy for this mess. And no matter how much we look at it from 10000000000 angles encouraging one to commit suicide because of offenses does not sit well in my heart.
Most religions are filled with fear but none encourages people to kill themselves.
So yes let us put sentiments aside and accept that this is exagerated.
It pushes one to constantly live in fear and guilt. And the only way to live in absolute inner spiritual harmony is TOTAL OBEDIENCE.
If ypu stray you will be punished by the guru and the group. The guru is allowed to be a punisher. Some can be more loving than others of course.
But they have the authority to reform us “demons” who got envious of Godhead and were gently kicked out.
So every nasty action can be considered mercy because we are spiritually sick.
We think we are Lords and the chastisment puts us in our right place.
In this case, the leaders of the group can never truly be blamed for reforming you.
Same way that very harsh behavior often passes in the military.
I have seen people return after 3 years of being banned like dogs with the their tail between their legs.
They are now more obedient than ever and feel very close to god. More than before.
This path is for those who dind happiness in submission and be a straw on the street. This is where Krishna likes to meet his devotees. In that low low place.
Now it seems as though the methods as to how to get that low matters.
Be it butler making you cry and keeping you awake all night long to seeve him.
Or to ban you and put you in the proverbial dog house for a few years.
This is my view and my opinion and noone has to agree with me.
The most important thing is that some are happy being straws. And this is all that counts.
I did not make these rules. I followed them for a while and it was very nice till I realized I was not made to act like a submissive slave.
So I guess I will be sent back over and over in this nasty realm till I learn my lesson.

What is the highest achievement in Bhakti Yoga:
“Krishna is free to do anything and everything”. Pretty much like the story of JOB.
No matter what he does I will love him unconditionally.
This unconditional acceptance leaves room for all kinds of abuse.
In a material relationship, one is encouraged to run away from a narcissist, abusive relation.
If your material father makes you cry and keeps you awake all night, they will take that kid away.
However guru butler does that, it is seen as the greatest mercy on the planet.
Can’t people see how Messed up it all is?
How the heck doesspiritual abuse is so glorified?
Those who stay with a husband that gives them a black eye is not very well understood.
But on this path one is encouraged to stay in the narcissist relationship with guru or leaders of centers.
I was once asked by Midgett : why did you come back to this controlling and fear based center?
My question to you is why the hell do you allow such a person to be a leader?
Narcissists are not only welcomed. They must be respected if they are pleasing to guru and Krishna. One can even be accused of commiting offenses for pointing out the abuse.
After everything I have seen with my eyes, I say that this path can be extremely damaging in the wrong hands.
And it has fallen in the wrong hands.
It is truly a lost cause at this point.

This video will show how dangerous this whole OFFENSES to the pure devotee deal is. How it led to the murder of a devotee in Iskcon.
A person who got invloved is blowing the whistle after decades.
We should never underestimate how the fear of offenses leads to fatal fanaticism.
How painful it was to always live in fear of being offensive or hearing offenses.
If there was no fear of offenses, the gurus will never have so much power.
Fear of offenses is what keeps the sincere seekers prisoner and the abusers safe.
It is pure mental torture. And SoI knows so well how to play with the offenses card.
How many times would you hear Butler say: Spiritual life is like walking on a razor’s edge. You can easily get cut. And offense to the pure devotee is the fatal cut.
How many of us fell for that crap for so many years?
The fear of offenses is truly as bad as having the mafia on your back and it is no joke.


[www.youtube.com]

Truth wins Wrote:
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> It tells you that you fell from grace and you are
> responsible for all the crap that happens to you.
> Pretty much another version of Adam and Eve
> messing up.

In SIF, the topic is treated inaccurately. There are other voices too. One of them is the claim that the theory of the fall of the soul from the spiritual world is the result of the influence of the Abramam religions, especially Christianity, on sheep who transferred their concepts to Vedanta. By joining the sects.

The philosophical discussion revolves around the question of whether the soul can fall from Krsna-lila, and one body says not. It can only fall from the area between the worlds. Being tatastha shakti. In other words, the soul, in the light of Brahman, or in the Viraja River, looks at both worlds and has a choice. There is nirguna. By accepting the reality of matter, saguna becomes and its journey begins.

Interesting comments were made in the words of Sri Sridhar. "Constitutional necessity". Translating into Catholic, getting to know the tree of "Good and Evil" is necessary, inevitable. For reference etc. Of course these are different concepts but the level of discussion is important.

The question then arises as to the truthfulness of "nitya-mukta" and "nitya-badha". The Vedic explanation says "such a long period of time that it cannot be traced." Forever does not mean forever. Then there are issues related to time, its perception, etc. Because people have mystical experiences where the course of "material" time is disturbed.

> So there is only a number one. And that number one
> is Godhead.
> We got envious and we were kicked out. Again
> beautified by the concept of FREE WILL. We were
> kicked out to play mini lords in the material
> world.

Choice vs being kicked out. Or "constitutional necessity" - not explained.

> It is all seen as mercy of course. And the PURE
> DEVOTEE knows what they are doing of course.

What "PURE" in "saguna" world means? No guna's influence? Material body is out of the guna's according the theory.

> Fear is present in the Vedas, Self loathing is
> exteremly glorified, giving away the will and life
> to gurus is encouraged.

According to the scriptures, fear is one of the motivations to start "spiritual life"

> It pushes one to constantly live in fear and
> guilt. And the only way to live in absolute inner
> spiritual harmony is TOTAL OBEDIENCE.

Asking questions in confidence is not TOTAL OBEDIENCE.

It's just a SIF version. "Don't go near the guru, he's in Hawaii. Work in devotion. And don't ask the guru any questions. He may not reply to your letter." In a non-ecclesiastical institution better than ISKCON where the leaders wanted to take the position of a guru, the appointed guest leader from America, Sir Balakhilya das will come and answer your questions ... Sometimes with sticky notes. But they can't be "tricky questions" ... Tricky..Riki-tiki ..

> In this case, the leaders of the group can never
> truly be blamed for reforming you.

Reforming ... That's another interesting concept. We know that beings are fallen and "saguna". Krsna (Vasudeva-Krsna) in the Bhagavad Gita says, what is the point of fighting with your nature? Which? The sum of the influences of gunas, defilements, and the effects of sins? What is reforming for then ...


> This path is for those who dind happiness in
> submission and be a straw on the street.

Why do they buy villas in Hawaii or in the best district of Lublin? Or cars? And they put foils on the seat so that the brother in god won't fart into the seat or poop on the upholstery ...

Truth wins Wrote:
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> What is the highest achievement in Bhakti Yoga:
> “Krishna is free to do anything and everything”.


Confronting this with the Bhagavad Gita one can find the words that "wherever morality and the principles of religion fall, He comes"

He - as Vasudeva-Krsna. Not Krsna from Vrindavana. In armor and as a coachman. In a moment as Vishnu and in Cosmic Form. Different moods.


It was also one of the important moments of verification for me - noticing this problem.
After a lecture by Tapasya das, one of the initiated women told me in a feeling full of conviction that "Krsna does not care." In terms of beings, they're doing some pretty bad things, and Krsna is sitting in the lilas and He doesn't give a damn about it. That was the mood. I started to philosophically analyze it and it was refuted. First, a material world is created by renunciation for souls that do not want to serve. Then the Paramatma advises. Incarnations. Sri Caitanya. And so on and so forth. Finally, Vraja's pastimes are also manifested in the material dimension.

This shows how hopeless the level of teaching had those appointed leaders and spiritual authorities in Poland ...

And one should ask the next question, is it really okay to "steal for Krsna"? What would be the point of Krsna's descent to restore morals and religion if He sanctioned theft? He sets an example through appearances. The coming would make no sense. Of course, as the Absolute Truth, He is the owner of everything, so He does not steal, but somehow the sheep have to be taught something.

All this shows that there is a lack foundation in SIF - yama. Universal Moral Principles. Moving on with the evidence, one can show how with this "Sir Acharya das" - the Gaudiya tradition is also treated neglectfully.

I remember a meeting at a retreate in Poland in the 90s where one of the students initiated in Poland organized a business meeting for those who wanted to earn money. He had an idea that was a scam. Nobody in the room protested. Maybe one person. Of course, the business itself today is a fraud, manipulation, etc., but it would be appropriate to represent a standard ...


Another philosophical aspect in SIF that conflicts with incoherent messages is bhakti. Does the soul have love for Krsna in its heart, but is it asleep and must be awake? There were also many inconsistencies here. The Sanyasi position is that the soul has the potential to accept bhakti, but bhakti is a gift. Love and devotion. However, it is worth discussing it individually with them.



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2021 04:56PM by DaWatcher.

Or another example from the discussions in recent days. About PURE DEVOTEE.

I asked - who said that "Such and such is Pure Devotee".

The answer was:

"X. das told that. Y.dasi told that."

And who are they? X treating A.dasi jak gestapo man - heard that personally, or Z kicking out a sick person out of a center? Who are they? Sect hierarchy?

Ooops.I forgot. The question has no sense ... Compare with scriptures, Paramatma God in heart..Guys, how could you make such a mistake and answer "such das and such dasi said". You forgot the scriptures and the Paramatma ...

I think that someone who gives cows to an ordinary breeder, where it is almost certain that they will die in the slaughterhouse, cannot be PURE DEVOTEE. It's like putting your mothers under a knife. Isn't the cow like one of the mothers? Why didn't you give your own mothers to the barn and then to the butcher? So much trouble with them ..And she has not been giving milk for a long time. And no one remembers the times when she gave ...



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2021 06:04PM by DaWatcher.

Ufortunately my personal experienes and insights do not really fit in here.
I think my views may be way too fringe.
We can only explore the tip of the iceberg.
Noone is ready for deeperand uglier truth.
I just know that the fear of offenses has been used as a tool to keep devotees in line.
Also a sadisdic state of mind they use all the time.
Like oh she went crazy because of offenses.
He or she commited suicide because they were offensive.
The most amazing thing I have ever heard was anybody tell me that X Devotee had an accident because he was offensive towrd her.
She heard him say something not so nice about her.
Ca you see the danger here?
They worship a VENGFUL god.
And this is all under the guidance of a guru who keeps scaring the sheep that offenses toward him means spiritual guillotine.
He is te on who has magnified offenses so much.
They almost relish seeing even other devotees suffer because of offenses.
I have been very disturbed in the past dasy as I hae even a greater picture of what is going on with that cult.
It is deeply dark.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2021 11:29PM by Truth wins.

Truth wins Wrote:
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> I just know that the fear of offenses has been
> used as a tool to keep devoteesin line.

Frightening with offences. At the same time, reluctance to confront the scriptures (sastra), and always ready to relativize a lot if you show with your finger that they do not respect tradition.

SIF activists, you do not respect tradition, that is, you do not follow the teachings of Paramapara. According to this conclusion you get NOTHING and give NOTHING ... "Sirs ..."

You keep talking about "not being the body" 30 years. In the same time sanyasis teach their disciples about improving their practive on bhava stage...Sphurti's on 3-rd kirtan...

> Also a saistic state of mind they use al the
> time.

I heard the leader of the "love science" treating a fragile girl like a Gestapo officer. Terrified to the limit of her being. She was trembling ...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2021 11:40PM by DaWatcher.

Aaaahh...I was told a story of one sleeping leader and small baby crying. Wow! All great PR SIF departament activists..What a nectar to deny...