That's also interesting:

[forum.bhaktijoga.pl]

Mr. Midget about the autor

Quote
Mr. Midget
"Generally, followers of the Gaudiya Math and I know Mirek is doing this openly claim that their guru teaches a higher truth to Vaisnava than Srila Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa Prabhupada, AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and other Vaisnava Gurus. This is both disrespectful, untrue and offensive. Vaishnava Aparadha. We have all heard lectures on judge placement, and this is the situation. It is offensive to claim that Guru Vaisnavas are in higher and lower positions. "

An then we look on a nice webpage of one of the disciples. Especially one poster:



The World's Greatest Authority on Reincarnation.

So...

[www.leavingthisworld.com]

Of course, the beginnings. 70-ties, 80-ties. Wiki says even Vedanta was under process of cleaning or corrections.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2021 12:00AM by DaWatcher.

Yes, I have written about this phenomenon on this forum MANY times as I personally experienced this hate and anger from Butler against, at the time, Mahabhagavata das Fergusson and his family (Wife Sandy and son Bali and two siblings). The fact is that MANY devotees experienced a sort of spiritual reawakeiings when associating with other senior vaishnavas of other missions.

Some went to India finally and got a taste of what real Vaishnavism looked like, smelled like, sounded like. Yes, all externals you may say and rightfully so, but the fact is that there was also a lot of spiritual depth in what many of those defecto disciples experienced (reading scriptures like Harinam Chintamini and Tattva Sandharba and other contemporary gaudiya scriptures).

They NEVER at any time gave up their loyalty and devotion to Butler (The concept of Siksa and Diksa was completely foreign to Butler and his clan). They chanted his pranam mantra (obeisances to Butler), spoke of him to other devotees they met, and continued programs in his name. So there was no loss of faith on their part in their diksha guru in any way. Still, Butler and Tusta and Acharya das and other "Butlerite" fanatics took it upon themselves to completely crush and blast these sincere seekers. For many it left them needing to make a strong divide in there mind. Abandon the small association they had that was keeping them excited in so-called krishna consciousness, or go back to Butlers boring brand of Bhakti. It put a lot of families and individuals in complete despair and spiritual upheaval.

I personally think all this vaishnavism stuff is a bunch of nonsense, BUT, at the time, I was as faithful and loyal as they come. It broke my heart. My family and devotees around me were divided and struggling emotionally and spiritually. and yes, devotee business fired devotees or became otherwise unbearable to work at as the judgement was constantly there. Devotees like Mahabhagavata were forced by Butler to write apology letters denouncing their association with such and such Vaishnava group/guru and groveling in self deprecation in front of Butler and their godbrothers. It was sickening.

It was around this time in Hawaii, Maui, that Butler started to get involved with the newly created World Vaishnava Association (WVA). Butler sent Tusta to represent him there (all the other guru's arrived in person) in India for the inauguration ceremonies. Butler started to donate volumes of money to various "Vrndavana" restoration projects and other vaishnava efforts. It seemed that at least the hate he had expressed toward other Vaishnava groups was letting up and subsiding...

But alas, nothing is without an agenda with Butler and SIF. It was not too long after that all this "friendliness" was shown for what it was really about: Butler was planning yet another one of his political power plays using his disciples (Gabbards). With the advent of the internet and the prospect of mass world influence and communication, Butler started the grueling process of having his disciples wipe the slate clean (scrub) and reinvent the old SIF and cover up any wrongdoings that were bound to bubble to the surface in Internet forums and blogs around the world.

By the time Butler was having his disciples push Tulsi as his Political puppet, there was literally thousands of vaishnava groups who were all of a sudden favorable and in support of Butler and his Tulsi candidate. Ultimately, joining the WVA was a power play move. After years of hearing Butler blast all outside Vaishnava groups for being "Maya", he was rubbing shoulders with them on the world stage...

With the advent of the internet threatening to expose the insidious cloth that Butler was cut from, he needed to make "nice" and play fair. If he did not it would ruin his money stream and whole position. He had devotees start countless fake decoy sites in the name of www.chisbutlerspeaks.com, www.Jagadguruspeaks.com, www.siddhaswarupanadaparamaghamsa.com, www.SIFYoga.com, and literally 100s of other similar sounding sites, all unmaintained and peddling the same narrative. His disciples quickly started blogs, opened social media accounts and did anything in their power to spin Butler's youthful 80's image as a veritable modern day Jesus figure. You literally could not find a picture of Butler as an old man, or how he really looked by then. You just saw Wai Lana's super photoshopped images, feel-good videos and assorted doctored up pictures of Butler in his "Chris Butler speaks" days.

It was around this time that I started to ask around and started my personal blog about the Baguio Brahmacaris. I was sincerely interested in what happened to all these guys. I was confronted with the fact that no image existed of what Butler actually looked like at that time. While other vaishnava gurus never hid their aging faces from the public, it seemed as if Butler's cult was making a concerted effort to hide his image and only offer a highly polished and youthful version... It was then that I discovered this forum and slowly began to unravel this tar-like cult I grew up in and lost my childhood to and years of mental agony.

Only about 2 years ago did SIF finally release images of how butler looks now. An image of an aging, frail, bald man dressed in white. Another image from a local New Zealand paper revealed Butler in his native habitat: A tin foiled room and all surfaces covered with white cloth... This was the Butler we all knew growing up. This was the real guy in all his frail glory. While other vaishnava guru's were flying around the world and preaching in third world countries and communist regimes, Butler, the great World Teacher, was sitting in his tin-foiled, air-filtered house on the beaches of Kailua. It became clear why only his "Chris butler speaks" videos were the only thing being peddled... That was literally the last time the man really preached. And even those videos were highly staged, often featuring the faces of all the devotees we have come to know. The question arose, has butler ever preached to anyone new? Or has he literally made a career of surrounding himself with people who agree with him about everything all the time? Basically, butler surrounded himself with loyal "Yes men" for his entire time as a guru. He brought that crowd to ISKCON to authenticate himself with a "guru name" and then as quickly as Swami Prabhupada drew his last breath, he was out of there with as many followers as he came with, he left.

Even Butler's days in the PI are often described as schinanigans. Butlers senior devotees walked around with knives and guns bullying ISKCON devotees and playing bodyguards for Butler. Butler claims to have gotten very sick in the PI (disciples were always to blame). He secluded himself and claims to have written Reincarnation Explained in Baguio (further research revealed that Tusta actually write most of it). Come to think of it, the PI made a great route for drug smuggling at the time and many of his followers that were "in" on that whole thing lived either in the PI or close by locations like Australia and New Zealand...

Butler was rejected by his guru. Rejected by his godbrothers. Was seen as a an offender. He usurped the title "Prabhupada", broke his Sanyasi order and watered down gaudiya vaishnavism to suit his needs. No wonder many of his followers have attempted to leave his fold. There is nothing there. It's an empty husk for many of his devotees.

I hate to say it, but I have been in at least 4 other Vaishnva groups since that time, and I have to be honest, it's the same shit show wherever you go. It's varying degrees of shit, but shit nonetheless. In most of these groups devotees are discourage from taking siksa from other vaishnavas. They are discouraged from studying or reading about the history of vaishnavism or really dissecting the vedas and post-medic works (you know, actually study and apply some rigor to what you believe in). Questioning or expressing doubts is not met with anything less than anger, agitation and claims of "Maya", offenses, sukriti, bad karma, or false ego by most devotees...

There is many videos of Swami Prabhupada being interviewed by reporters or talking with scientists and giving naive answers to serious questions. Brushing off questions with an agitated air and arrogant wave of the hand. If you look at the countless private talks Bhaktivedanta or Butler had with their devotees you will see bizarre opinions about women, childrearing, race, sex(uality), Hitler, cosmology, medicine (One of my favorites: Letter to Aniruddha, San Francisco, April 9, 1968 "Milk and salt should never be mixed, it is improper, and will cause leprosy. But salt can be mixed with yogurt."), biology etc etc.

Butler's lectures that were played to boys and girls as young as 8 years old included vivid descriptions of anal sex, scatophilia, urination and other fringe sexual fetishes. Butler would draw on and on about these things in an obsessive angry tirade only to say "Haribol! Chant Hare Krishna!". The guys was/is a total nut job. The video sniper that made it to the publics attention of Butler claiming that AIDS would stop if gay's stopped having anal sex is just the tip of the iceberg of choice lectures about some of his favorite topics. His disciples sat there laughing, whooping and hollering like a bunch of suck-up frat boys. It was uncomfortable for me as a child. As a thinking adult it's a tragedy and crime.

DaWatcher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's also interesting:
>
> [forum.bhaktijoga.pl]
>
> Mr. Midget about the autor
>
>

Quote
Mr. Midget
> "Generally, followers of the Gaudiya Math and I
> know Mirek is doing this openly claim that
> their guru teaches a higher truth to
> Vaisnava than Srila Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa
> Prabhupada, AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and
> other Vaisnava Gurus. This is both disrespectful,
> untrue and offensive. Vaishnava Aparadha. We have
> all heard lectures on judge placement, and this is
> the situation. It is offensive to claim that Guru
> Vaisnavas are in higher and lower positions. "
>

>
> An then we look on a nice webpage of one of the
> disciples. Especially one poster:
>
>
>
> The World's Greatest Authority on Reincarnation.
>
> So...
>
> [www.leavingthisworld.com]
>
> Of course, the beginnings. 70-ties, 80-ties. Wiki
> says even Vedanta was under process of cleaning or
> corrections.


Ironically, DeWatcher, the Vaishnava faith DOES in fact encourage hyarchial thinking in terms of devotees: Kanistha, madhyama, uttama-adhikara. This is regularly used to discriminate and identify association amongst vaishnavas.

Aside from this, concepts of Rasa and Swarup are also used to to create hyarchial status: santa-rasa, dasya-rasa, sakhya-rasa, vatsalya-rasa and madhurya-rasa. Madhurya often painted as the "top-most". And the swarupa of a gopi being advertised as the "highest"...

While I personally feel all of religion is mind garbage, I can see why, myself included, found Burtler's flavor of Bhakti to be shallow and naive in contrast to say, Puri Maharaj or Sridhara Maharaj and their senior disciples. At least there was a depth of concept they were sharing that further evolved the krishna conception beyond a "you are not your body" rhetoric. Chant and be happy quickly became understood a a neophyte approach. There was layers of depth to Harinam and understanding of sambandha, abidheya and prayojana that butler never touched upon. It's really no wonder that so many of his followers buzzed away to a sweeter flower instead of sitting through his millionth anti-gay tirade they could expect from an intimate lecture from him. Holy cow.

And here we have Butler's puppet compalining about cancel culture when she has made a literal career of it, starting in her early days of Stop Promoting Homosexuality Hawaii with her father where they proposed electroconvulsive therapy for gay teens. [www.youtube.com]


And let's not forget that anyone who finds Butler's cult as abusive, detrimental, offensive and idiotic is cancelled as a Hindu-phobe by his mob of mindless morons trolling every news and social media outlet.

[www.msn.com]

Butler has made his guru career based on Cancel culture. Listen to his lectures about Islam and Homosexuals as a great example. Never mind his countless attempts to cancel ISKCON and Gaudiya Math and political opponents. Or, his own disciples for that matter.

Tulsi is right. Cancel culture is used by ISIS and al Qaeda... and her own guru too.

Cancel culture does not exists. It's just called people expressing their opinions and calling people on their bullshit. That's it. It's been happening since the dawn of time. Balakhiya das banning devotees from communications with defacto ex-members is called divisive control over followers. Controlling who you can listen to, be friends with and what opinions you hold is what cults do and why they are called out for their bullshit. Butler and guru's like him have been using power trips like this for thousands of years. There is literally an epidemic in places like India because gurus are so highly revered and beyond reproach. It's taboo to be critical of a "sadhu" even if there is video footage of the sadhu being a total tool.

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My family and devotees around me were
> divided and struggling emotionally and
> spiritually. and yes, devotee business fired
> devotees or became otherwise unbearable to work at
> as the judgement was constantly there.

There are also untold stories from Poland from the beginnings. Devotees worked to the bone even all night , and the hero beautifully dressed coming out from a beautiful car, the hero who manages them, humiliates them and is initiated. There are such reminiscences ..

I have never met Chris Butler. But i met the hero and haven't hear any apology or about his apology.

> Devotees
> like Mahabhagavata were forced by Butler to write
> apology letters denouncing their association with
> such and such Vaishnava group/guru and groveling
> in self deprecation in front of Butler and their
> godbrothers. It was sickening.

First time i read that.

> But alas, nothing is without an agenda with Butler
> and SIF. It was not too long after that all this
> "friendliness" was shown for what it was really
> about: Butler was planning yet another one of his
> political power plays using his disciples
> (Gabbards). With the advent of the internet and
> the prospect of mass world influence and
> communication, Butler started the grueling process
> of having his disciples wipe the slate clean
> (scrub) and reinvent the old SIF and cover up any
> wrongdoings that were bound to bubble to the
> surface in Internet forums and blogs around the
> world.

Everyone has the right to start all over again, but when it comes to politics, this is not a Vaisnava tradition.

> It was around this time that I started to ask
> around and started my personal blog about the
> Baguio Brahmacaris. I was sincerely interested in
> what happened to all these guys.

There is never enough truth. Truth should defend itself.


> I was confronted
> with the fact that no image existed of what Butler
> actually looked like at that time. While other
> vaishnava gurus never hid their aging faces from
> the public, it seemed as if Butler's cult was
> making a concerted effort to hide his image and
> only offer a highly polished and youthful
> version... It was then that I discovered this
> forum and slowly began to unravel this tar-like
> cult I grew up in and lost my childhood to and
> years of mental agony.


Today, more annoying to me are the artificial comments on Mr. Midget webinars. For example, one of the initiated writes how delightful the science (the basics) is when this person wrote a book about i. You know, webinar looks nicer when something is happening, but it's more about treating people like idiots who can find out that the commenting person has been the author for years and has been sitting on the topic for years.

>
> Only about 2 years ago did SIF finally release
> images of how butler looks now. An image of an
> aging, frail, bald man dressed in white.
> Another
> image from a local New Zealand paper revealed
> Butler in his native habitat: A tin foiled room
> and all surfaces covered with white cloth...


An exciting life It doesn't look like Yoda would say.

> Butler
> claims to have gotten very sick in the PI
> (disciples were always to blame).

Why to gather kids there then?


> He secluded
> himself and claims to have written Reincarnation
> Explained in Baguio (further research revealed
> that Tusta actually write most of it).

This is a good book. It was good for it's time. Certain concepts could be questioned of course, but the book was good.


> bizarre opinions about women, childrearing, race,
> sex(uality), Hitler, cosmology, medicine (One of
> my favorites: Letter to Aniruddha, San Francisco,
> April 9, 1968 "Milk and salt should never be
> mixed, it is improper, and will cause leprosy. But
> salt can be mixed with yogurt."), biology etc etc.

Generally, if reductionisms are applied or discussed, then thorough knowledge allows to prove scientifically, formally, etc. where these reductionisms came from.

There is a question of the depth of understanding, Phenomena, processes, etc. For example, one may discuss guna's theory literally. And someone can confront it with the dynamics of phenomena in the network of neurons and, for example, the accumulation of heavy metals, etc. For simple minds, full knowledge is not digestible.


> Butler's lectures that were played to boys and
> girls as young as 8 years old included vivid
> descriptions of anal sex, scatophilia, urination
> and other fringe sexual fetishes.

Very controversial


> of Butler claiming that AIDS would stop if gay's
> stopped having anal sex is just the tip of the
> iceberg of choice lectures about some of his
> favorite topics. His disciples sat there laughing,
> whooping and hollering like a bunch of suck-up
> frat boys.

AIDS would stop. Simple question is: why then they wanted people to come to retreats with medical tests for AIDS done ...

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ironically, DeWatcher, the Vaishnava faith DOES in
> fact encourage hyarchial thinking in terms of
> devotees: Kanistha, madhyama, uttama-adhikara.
> This is regularly used to discriminate and
> identify association amongst vaishnavas.

In fact - no.

[en.wikipedia.org]

Quote

Hinduism is a composite of various cults and a variety of creeds; the conflict amongst them is avoided by the twin doctrines of "Adhikara" and "Ista". Adhikara means eligibility; it is not a gradation but acceptance of fact or realism in the spiritual sphere and a question of duty.

Hierarchical interpretation is a sign of lack of any understaning in this matter. Old spiritual poverty in other words.


> Aside from this, concepts of Rasa and Swarup are
> also used to to create hyarchial status:
> santa-rasa, dasya-rasa, sakhya-rasa, vatsalya-rasa
> and madhurya-rasa. Madhurya often painted as the
> "top-most". And the swarupa of a gopi being
> advertised as the "highest"...

As above. More like a depth of intimacy.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2021 03:03AM by DaWatcher.

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And let's not forget that anyone who finds
> Butler's cult as abusive, detrimental, offensive
> and idiotic is cancelled as a Hindu-phobe by his
> mob of mindless morons trolling every news and
> social media outlet.
>
> [www.msn.com]

That's an old trick not to say more..

>
> Cancel culture does not exists. It's just called
> people expressing their opinions and calling
> people on their bullshit. That's it. It's been
> happening since the dawn of time. Balakhiya das
> banning devotees from communications with defacto
> ex-members is called divisive control over
> followers.

Let's play with handcuffs control...Boys devoted to help, ready to throw out anyone form lecture in front of nice boys with iron and official papers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2021 03:09AM by DaWatcher.

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, I have written about this phenomenon on this
> forum MANY times as I personally experienced this
> hate and anger from Butler against, at the time,
> Mahabhagavata das Fergusson and his family (Wife
> Sandy and son Bali and two siblings). The fact is
> that MANY devotees experienced a sort of spiritual
> reawakeiings when associating with other senior
> vaishnavas of other missions.
>
> Some went to India finally and got a taste of what
> real Vaishnavism looked like, smelled like,
> sounded like. Yes, all externals you may say and
> rightfully so, but the fact is that there was also
> a lot of spiritual depth in what many of those
> defecto disciples experienced (reading scriptures
> like Harinam Chintamini and Tattva Sandharba and
> other contemporary gaudiya scriptures).
>
> They NEVER at any time gave up their loyalty and
> devotion to Butler (The concept of Siksa and Diksa
> was completely foreign to Butler and his clan).
> They chanted his pranam mantra (obeisances to
> Butler), spoke of him to other devotees they met,
> and continued programs in his name. So there was
> no loss of faith on their part in their diksha
> guru in any way. Still, Butler and Tusta and
> Acharya das and other "Butlerite" fanatics took it
> upon themselves to completely crush and blast
> these sincere seekers. For many it left them
> needing to make a strong divide in there mind.
> Abandon the small association they had that was
> keeping them excited in so-called krishna
> consciousness, or go back to Butlers boring brand
> of Bhakti. It put a lot of families and
> individuals in complete despair and spiritual
> upheaval.
>
> I personally think all this vaishnavism stuff is a
> bunch of nonsense, BUT, at the time, I was as
> faithful and loyal as they come. It broke my
> heart. My family and devotees around me were
> divided and struggling emotionally and
> spiritually. and yes, devotee business fired
> devotees or became otherwise unbearable to work at
> as the judgement was constantly there. Devotees
> like Mahabhagavata were forced by Butler to write
> apology letters denouncing their association with
> such and such Vaishnava group/guru and groveling
> in self deprecation in front of Butler and their
> godbrothers. It was sickening.
>
> It was around this time in Hawaii, Maui, that
> Butler started to get involved with the newly
> created World Vaishnava Association (WVA). Butler
> sent Tusta to represent him there (all the other
> guru's arrived in person) in India for the
> inauguration ceremonies. Butler started to donate
> volumes of money to various "Vrndavana"
> restoration projects and other vaishnava efforts.
> It seemed that at least the hate he had expressed
> toward other Vaishnava groups was letting up and
> subsiding...
>
> But alas, nothing is without an agenda with Butler
> and SIF. It was not too long after that all this
> "friendliness" was shown for what it was really
> about: Butler was planning yet another one of his
> political power plays using his disciples
> (Gabbards). With the advent of the internet and
> the prospect of mass world influence and
> communication, Butler started the grueling process
> of having his disciples wipe the slate clean
> (scrub) and reinvent the old SIF and cover up any
> wrongdoings that were bound to bubble to the
> surface in Internet forums and blogs around the
> world.
>
> By the time Butler was having his disciples push
> Tulsi as his Political puppet, there was literally
> thousands of vaishnava groups who were all of a
> sudden favorable and in support of Butler and his
> Tulsi candidate. Ultimately, joining the WVA was a
> power play move. After years of hearing Butler
> blast all outside Vaishnava groups for being
> "Maya", he was rubbing shoulders with them on the
> world stage...
>
> With the advent of the internet threatening to
> expose the insidious cloth that Butler was cut
> from, he needed to make "nice" and play fair. If
> he did not it would ruin his money stream and
> whole position. He had devotees start countless
> fake decoy sites in the name of
> www.chisbutlerspeaks.com, www.Jagadguruspeaks.com,
> www.siddhaswarupanadaparamaghamsa.com,
> www.SIFYoga.com, and literally 100s of other
> similar sounding sites, all unmaintained and
> peddling the same narrative. His disciples quickly
> started blogs, opened social media accounts and
> did anything in their power to spin Butler's
> youthful 80's image as a veritable modern day
> Jesus figure. You literally could not find a
> picture of Butler as an old man, or how he really
> looked by then. You just saw Wai Lana's super
> photoshopped images, feel-good videos and assorted
> doctored up pictures of Butler in his "Chris
> Butler speaks" days.
>
> It was around this time that I started to ask
> around and started my personal blog about the
> Baguio Brahmacaris. I was sincerely interested in
> what happened to all these guys. I was confronted
> with the fact that no image existed of what Butler
> actually looked like at that time. While other
> vaishnava gurus never hid their aging faces from
> the public, it seemed as if Butler's cult was
> making a concerted effort to hide his image and
> only offer a highly polished and youthful
> version... It was then that I discovered this
> forum and slowly began to unravel this tar-like
> cult I grew up in and lost my childhood to and
> years of mental agony.
>
> Only about 2 years ago did SIF finally release
> images of how butler looks now. An image of an
> aging, frail, bald man dressed in white. Another
> image from a local New Zealand paper revealed
> Butler in his native habitat: A tin foiled room
> and all surfaces covered with white cloth... This
> was the Butler we all knew growing up. This was
> the real guy in all his frail glory. While other
> vaishnava guru's were flying around the world and
> preaching in third world countries and communist
> regimes, Butler, the great World Teacher, was
> sitting in his tin-foiled, air-filtered house on
> the beaches of Kailua. It became clear why only
> his "Chris butler speaks" videos were the only
> thing being peddled... That was literally the last
> time the man really preached. And even those
> videos were highly staged, often featuring the
> faces of all the devotees we have come to know.
> The question arose, has butler ever preached to
> anyone new? Or has he literally made a career of
> surrounding himself with people who agree with him
> about everything all the time? Basically, butler
> surrounded himself with loyal "Yes men" for his
> entire time as a guru. He brought that crowd to
> ISKCON to authenticate himself with a "guru name"
> and then as quickly as Swami Prabhupada drew his
> last breath, he was out of there with as many
> followers as he came with, he left.
>
> Even Butler's days in the PI are often described
> as schinanigans. Butlers senior devotees walked
> around with knives and guns bullying ISKCON
> devotees and playing bodyguards for Butler. Butler
> claims to have gotten very sick in the PI
> (disciples were always to blame). He secluded
> himself and claims to have written Reincarnation
> Explained in Baguio (further research revealed
> that Tusta actually write most of it). Come to
> think of it, the PI made a great route for drug
> smuggling at the time and many of his followers
> that were "in" on that whole thing lived either in
> the PI or close by locations like Australia and
> New Zealand...
>
> Butler was rejected by his guru. Rejected by his
> godbrothers. Was seen as a an offender. He usurped
> the title "Prabhupada", broke his Sanyasi order
> and watered down gaudiya vaishnavism to suit his
> needs. No wonder many of his followers have
> attempted to leave his fold. There is nothing
> there. It's an empty husk for many of his
> devotees.
>
> I hate to say it, but I have been in at least 4
> other Vaishnva groups since that time, and I have
> to be honest, it's the same shit show wherever you
> go. It's varying degrees of shit, but shit
> nonetheless. In most of these groups devotees are
> discourage from taking siksa from other
> vaishnavas. They are discouraged from studying or
> reading about the history of vaishnavism or really
> dissecting the vedas and post-medic works (you
> know, actually study and apply some rigor to what
> you believe in). Questioning or expressing doubts
> is not met with anything less than anger,
> agitation and claims of "Maya", offenses, sukriti,
> bad karma, or false ego by most devotees...
>
> There is many videos of Swami Prabhupada being
> interviewed by reporters or talking with
> scientists and giving naive answers to serious
> questions. Brushing off questions with an agitated
> air and arrogant wave of the hand. If you look at
> the countless private talks Bhaktivedanta or
> Butler had with their devotees you will see
> bizarre opinions about women, childrearing, race,
> sex(uality), Hitler, cosmology, medicine (One of
> my favorites: Letter to Aniruddha, San Francisco,
> April 9, 1968 "Milk and salt should never be
> mixed, it is improper, and will cause leprosy. But
> salt can be mixed with yogurt."), biology etc etc.
>
> Butler's lectures that were played to boys and
> girls as young as 8 years old included vivid
> descriptions of anal sex, scatophilia, urination
> and other fringe sexual fetishes. Butler would
> draw on and on about these things in an obsessive
> angry tirade only to say "Haribol! Chant Hare
> Krishna!". The guys was/is a total nut job. The
> video sniper that made it to the publics attention
> of Butler claiming that AIDS would stop if gay's
> stopped having anal sex is just the tip of the
> iceberg of choice lectures about some of his
> favorite topics. His disciples sat there laughing,
> whooping and hollering like a bunch of suck-up
> frat boys. It was uncomfortable for me as a child.
> As a thinking adult it's a tragedy and crime.

You really nailed it in this post Ian. Nice job.

The World Teacher hidden away in his germaphobe-friendly house in a remote suburb of Honolulu, where he grew up as a child. Lol.

Orders two disciples to divorce so he can marry one of them. Standard Vaishnavism no doubt.

Lectures on his devotion to his spiritual master and his disciplic succession. But wait he disobeyed his guru. Lol.

And on and on it goes.

I heard some of the homophobic lectures and they were graphic and brutal. To say the least.

One thing I would like to share is the lectures where one of Wai Lana's daughters would read from the Chaitanya Charitamrita with her lovely English accent.

And CB would interject with this phony laugh like he was experiencing some transcendental bliss that we mere mortals could never understand. Then he would offer some commentary on what was going on in the story.

It seemed to me so phony and contrived.

Quite an apt metaphor really.

But hey, if you want to worship him as a Christ-like figure, enjoy yourself.

Another example of methodically distorting the teachings. In this case, Caitanya Mahaprabhu again. There is a difference between "mantra" and "sankirtana". This deception takes place in the context of a lecture by Chris Butler / Siddhaswarupananda which emphasized the forgotten importance of kirtan in the Gaudiya / Gaudiya Math teachings.

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So, regardless of religious views, it is unknown whose teachings the SIF teaches.

Probably the most infamous lecture by Jagad Guru Chris Butler is: "This World Is A Perverted Reflection Of The Spiritual World". It is the lecture where in Chris Butler goes into vivid detail about scatophiliac stuff and makes the comparison between maggots and another word that rhymes. I have a transcript of the lecture, but sadly I don't have the actual recording.

His sexism is fully on display in the lecture: "THE WIVES OF THE BRAHMANAS: REAL FEMININITY" where he calls women simple minded, unambitious, likens periods to having a wound that bleeds, and how feminism is a ploy to rid the world of women. That last part delves into the conspiratorial mindset rampant in Chris' cult. The world is out to get them, ISCKON tried to murder the only fully-realized soul on the planet. There are endless conspiracies floating around the cult, most influenced by social media. You can see a good example of this in Tulsi Gabbard who also leant onto conspiratorial narratives when she failed to muster much support. After all, if Chris wants something to happen, therefore Krishna wants that same thing to happen. If it doesn't happen then some malevolent outside force must have aligned to stop it from happening. This malevolent force for the Chris Cult is atheists.

Being a part of the Chris cult requires that an adherent adopts a siege mentality much like their spiritual master. Everyone is out to get you and everything is viewed through a conspiratorial lens. You also end up in a horrible mentality that the world is full of people out to abuse each other for some small material gain. It serves to closes the group off from the world and to silo spiritual-projects away from new members. I've heard many an senior disciple rue having to be secretive, it just isn't in our nature to hide our lives away. They actively miss the old days and being open. They know that his teachings are outdated and wouldn't be accepted by the majority of audiences today. Now his old lectures are being carefully edited. Can you imagine it, a guru having to edit his own words in his lifetime else he incur the wrath of Twitter. So much for being a fearless devotee if a spot of deserved outrage sends him packing and hiding in his mansions.

He is in his seventies now and in poor health, although who knows if that is even true, he has long used it as an excuse to retreat from the cult when he grows bored. He used to broadcast private lectures online once every week for a couple years, but he has since stopped even that. His micromanagement of Tuli's political career has been a disaster. I can foresee them making a pivot to the other wing of politics. He has some weird prophecy wherein his Gurudev told him that he could be an American President. It's something he has flirted with for over 40 years now.

I don't think he does much of anything anymore, he is getting old and enjoying the pleasant beach life in Hawaii. He'll be gone within a decade, another twist of history that affected a few thousand peoples lives. It is going to be destruction once he does croak. So many of his senior devotee's are broken and poor. They have become reliant on the system created by the cult to live. A big issue within in the cult is young members leaving. Particularly young men, it has caused an gender imbalance within the group. It is far to easy to interact with the rest of the world through social media, movies, music, videogames, and chat software. Once they take a small rebellious step into the world, it doesn't take long before they have left. It creates an interesting dynamic within the group. The demographics are tilted towards older members now, and third generation kids that have little chance at making anything of their life outside the cult. I feel for these kids, growing up with crap educations and little understand of the world around them. I've met kids who are 12-16 years old that read like kindergarten children. Never-mind the complete lack of any education in mathematics, science, literature, history, and more.

It is a sad and sorry state of affairs, they are old that Krishna will take care of them, if they believe in Krishna then they will be okay. Krishna isn't a currency carried by Mastercard.

Cultkid85 some people like myself are not extremely attracted to the material realm and what it has to offer.
I have always been attracted to a spiritual setting, away from society.
When I came across the group, felt as though I had finally found my life path and people I could relate to.
Unlike many here, I did have faith in the process and I did get happiness from relating to Krishna.
Now some people may argue that it is all fabricated. I know now that the nature of this reality is way more complex than anybody can imagine and that nobdoy has all the answers as to how it is operated.
Everybody finds a purpose where they can.
I know that I would have never left if the atmosphere was much more loving and devoid of fear, secrecy, partialities, callousness....
I did not leave because Maya was calling me. I left because I could no longer stand the emotional, spiritual abuse of the “leader” of our center. Plus the lack of care in general amongst devotees.
No matter how much I gave, it was not enough. I even often got compared to other people who did more. That person has no idea how much she damaged me and many others. Those more influential disciples do whatever the heck they want.
Noone will ban them or chastize them because they are an essential foundation of outreach. So the senior rockstar disciple turns a blind eye and let the abuse go on. Even if many people have gone to him and cry about the hurt that the leader of the center has caused them.
After all who cares about an insignificant soul such as myself. My staying or leaving will not create a huge imbalance in the SoI ecosystem.
What differnce does it make that my spiritual well being is destroyed as long as outreach goes on at any cost.
They may pretend that the external world is dangerous but their spiritual society is much more dangerous than the material world.
I have been exposed to an amazing amount of uggliness in the material world, but it has never affected me as much as spiritual injustice.
The terrible emotions that I kept burried inside of me for all those years, left a huge scar on my soul.
The fact that I am not easily able to forgive them is because after I left, I was faced with hell. But at least in the material hell, you don’t have to worry about offenses 24/7. You can speak your truth, stand up for yourself, no need for false humility....
I guess it was a very crappy Karma to finally come cross a path I truly liked but with a group that is rotten at the core (even if it looks pretty cool from the outside).
My life could have been much different if that enviroment was spiritually safe.
I do not know what it is like in other groups, but seems as though there is dirt and drama in all of them.
So after that experience, I have never been attracted to be part of another spritual community.
I can safely say that my life (what could have been) was destroyed by that group.
I do not use the word “destroy” lightly. It changed the course of my destiny for the worse.
I take responsibilty for my own heavy fate but I also hold them accountable for pushing me into a much darker situation.
If there is true divine justice, noone will be protected from the harm they cause to another individual. No matter how much they externally accomplish for their master and God.
I don’t care about the present nor the future of the SoI. Many are blissfully happy walking on eggshells every day. Or thinking that free labor, sleepless nights, getting 20 vaccines to serve an eccentric master is all part of spiritual life. Or being part of the privileged club (being the kids, or marrying the kids of the rockstar devotees).
The sad part is that I am almost convinced that they think they are amazing and superior to Iskcon (the great ennemy that is now an ally to make Tulsi (the Hindu politician) gain more popularity).
I truly believe that they think they are doing ONLY good. The goal is to give as many lectures as possible. To attract as many “lost” soul as possible. To “give them Krishna” so that they can later turn them off that same deity.
I know that and don’t want to minimize their efforts.
What are all those efforts worth if they then damage the sincere seekers who dive in. After you go from being a lovebombed NEW PERSON to a not so worthy REGULAR.
You are saying they are editing lectures? How can you edit making lies and contradicting scripture in order to gain the sympathy of voters?
Ladies and gentelmen, I present to you the PURE REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD ON THE PLANET!
I guess white lies and hypocrisy pass if it is in the service of God and dictated by one who hears God perfectly in his heart.
What an absolute travesty. One swears on the Gita and then contradicts the teachings of the scriptures to get votes.
And it bothers absolutely noone? Why? Because they think that CB is Arjuna eiding alone with Krishna. As CB says it himself where there is Krishna and Arjuna, there is victory. Use scripture however it serves you!
Thanks to the internet and this group, I was able to open my broken heart and soul.
A few people in that group have taken their lives. I don’t know what pushed them to do it.
They never got a chance to express what pushed them to the edge.
I just know that instead of compassion they were blamed for being offensive.
These people are too arrogant and hypnotized to recognize the toxic, fear based, work you to the bones spiritual setting they have created.
They will never have the humility to accept that they have damaged some souls.
This is why I neither care about them nor worry about their future.
Even if more caring and just leaders take over after the old ones leave the planet, they will inherit an unclean spiritual society aka mental hospital.
It will take more than a miracle to turn it around and build what a true Bhakti Yoga community should be like.
I remember at the end of my being very active in the group, I started losing my enthusiasm to do outreach.
I believed in the process and felt that people could benefit from it.
However I could not, in good conscience, bring more souls into the apiritual snake pit.
This is when I understood how much I have and was being hurt by staying with them.
Many people who were damaged by the group are now married, happy, have jobs...
Unfortunately this is not my reality. So I guess my life has been a lose-lose situation.
This is the result of trusting and serving the wrong people.
I pray that those who have the courage to leave, will have a smoother landing.
May the few who suffer and hurt be protected and find healing.
As for CB and his longtime faithful associates, life will go on. They will always be adored and served. He will always have some people washing 50 towels a day and cook different organic dishes (while the servants sleep in garages and count pennies),clean his and his queen’s luxury houses every single day, make him millions by any means possible...
All in the name of Guru is non different than Krishna’s theory.
This forum or a few other blogs on the net, will absolutely not disturb the love and devotion of the blind followers who will never dare question the fishy and contradictory aspects.
They will happily enjoy the free ride not giving one single damn about the ones they harmed.