Looks like SIF bought some prime google ad space to get top ranking when people search for "Chris Butler Cult"...

They even have a link in it to a lecture of Butler talking about religious fanatics/cults. Of course the cognitive dissonance ensues when you realize that he is telling people that religious fanaticism is not possible when practicing "true religion". He spends half the lecture talking about Jesus and stating that Jesus never said anything about people worshiping him when we all know the verse, "no one comes to the Father but through me..." etc etc. And of course anyone who has been in the Butler cult knows that he is the man who you worship and serve if you want love of god. So, as expected, another disingenuous lecture that paints a pleasant picture for the newbie, but is not reflective of anything you will experience when you are in the cult. In the cult you are told some things as you start off, and when you ask and want to know more, you find out very quickly that your link to god is through Butler. That in fact your chanting and dancing and following the 4 regulative principles is not even going to yield any spiritual results until you surrender to Butler. And if you have been around the cult for a while, you will hear lectures of Butler that sound nothing short of religiously fanatical and bigoted. Butler explains god in lose terms as an abstract supreme person. He never once mentions "Krishna" or "Narashingha" or any of the actual teachings and dogma of the cult. Just surface pleasantries that seem perfectly nice and spiritual to the simple seeker. But is this really what they teach? Is it really the actual message he promotes and the teachings and concepts? Of course not. Far far from it. His own guru, as Corboy pointed out, did have a very fanatical concept of "killing" the Mudhas. If that is not forceful religious fanaticism I don't know why is...

The fact is, religion and fanatacism do coexist. In most cases they are nearly inseparable as everyone wants to feel they have found the "right one". Half of our time as young devotee kids was spent in learning how to defeat christians in argument. In other words, how to fanatically propose that our god is better than theirs. How to show that our teachings were superior because they were based on "5000 year old" books and how or god is "sweet and beautiful" and "all attractive". We conveniently leave things out when trying to convert others. Why? Because we know that if we told them the truth: You need to surrender to Butler for this shit to actually work. Then people would run the other way. Because when they see a lecture of Butler smashing homosexuals et al with derogatory terms and living in a beach front home isolated from the real world and they see all the businesses his devotees operate to make money for him and they see his cheesy ass yoga teacher wife, they would stiffen with disgust and recoil.

The more Butler is exposed, the more they will spend time (and LOTS of money) patching up the holes in their charade. They will publish website after website to fill search results, they will buy ad space on google, they will cry religious bigotry when challenged in the open or by journalists and ex-devotees and they will even send people on this forum again to spread misinformation and diversions. By hook or by crook they will stand by their guru who has lead them down a rabbit hole they may never get to of. Or even want to get out of for that matter. Once 2-3 generations of kids grow up hearing this guy and having no other knowledge or ideas of their own how to navigate the world, they will be the very thing butler claims does not exist: Religious Fanatics.

Please look at this article and sound logical argument against the notion of Free Will and how clear, concise and productive it is in terms of its application to a persons daily life.

[www.google.com]

Now, contrast this against a typical Hari Krishna forum where everyone is giving their illogical, hodge podge opinions based on no science, reason or logic. Just blind religious fanaticism at its finest, in the end, resulting in no clear answer and applicable Avenue of action:

[iskcondesiretree.com]

It's almost painful to realize that I spent majority of my formative years as a youth trying to justify Against All Odds this philosophical mumbo jumbo. Don't even get me started on the origin of the Jiva debate.

DaWatcher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IanKoviak Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > So basically a Mudha is anyone who does not
> accept
> > their specific god. Got it. Very credible and
> > logical indeed. Pretty much the formula of all
> > fanatical religious groups.
>
>
> In this case the context was lost and it was
> treated too generally. Just take a look:
>
> [prabhupadabooks.com]
>
>

Quote

Prabhupada: Still, if you say, "You are
> mudha," they become angry. Such mudhas, rascals,
> they are in the government service. And if
> you say that "You are mudhas," he becomes angry.
> Upadeso hi murkhanam prakopaya na santaye: "If a
> mudha is advised nice instruction, he becomes
> angry." He does not take it. Payah-panam
> bhujanganam kevalam visa-vardhanam: "If you give
> milk and banana to a snake, you simply increase
> his poison." One day he will come-(growls). You
> see? "I have given you milk and you..." "Yes, that
> is my nature. Yes. You give me milk, and I am
> prepared to kill you." This is mudha. We have
> to kill this civilization of mudhas. That is Krsna
> consciousness movement. Paritranaya sadhunam
> vinasaya ca duskrtam [Bg. 4.8]. Those who are
> actually human being, you have to give them Krsna.
> And those who are mudhas, we have to kill them.
> This is our business. Kill all the mudhas and give
> Krsna to the sane man. Yes. That will prove that
> you are really Krsna's. We are not nonviolent. We
> are violent to the mu?has. [break] ...wal, did you
> come here before?

>
> So you can see that the word "kill" falls in the
> context of narrowing the term "mudha" to
> politicians who are ready to kill someone who
> teaches them or "gives them milk". So the term
> "kill all the mudha" is a far-reaching
> generalization. The lost context of A.C.
> Bhaktivedanta Swami words.
>
> Or at least the beginning of the paragraph
> outlines concentration on politics and then first
> of all this "mudha" is assigned the readiness to
> kill.


I don't see anything out of context. The man is basically making some sort of generalized sweeping statement about government workers and how we should discriminate and call them mudhas because they don't want to worship your god Krishna. He then takes it a step further that somehow we need to kill these mudhas—presumably government workers, if they do not accept Krishna. There is no other way to read this. I am sorry, but a person either speaks with clarity about what they believe to be fact or they are creating unnecessary riddles and complexity within an already complex philosophical ideology. Is there something lost in the context of his other sweeping remarks about women and astronomy and blacks???? Please enlighten me. I am all ears about how I need to be interpreting this stuff.
>
>
> > DeWatcher: What do you mean it's "Hard to say
> that
> > are words of ACBS"? It's right there in the
> > transcripts on the Vani archives (along with
> many
> > other lunatic comments, ideas, dogma):
>
> I respect original Veda and today's science.

I respect the "original" veda, as in the Rig veda, as a cultural work of mythology and seeds of philosophical systems that evolved overtime culturally and sociological within India. That is it. No universal applicable truth there. Just ideas. Some good, some nonsense. Science is a process and method of trying to understand the visible world. There is little to no science in the vedas. The books that feral with Ayurveda and mathematics are not part of the "veda" proper. They are works on specific disciplines. Ayurveda is not scientifically sound. It has some useful ideas and concepts but it can hardly compare to modern advances in science in terms of rigor in study and proof of usefulness. Mathematics is different as it is based solely on reason and rational logic systems. No metaphysics there. No Indra making rain and Vayu controlling the winds...


And
> verify. As I showed earlier - there is always
> someone changing something. The original dies. The
> question of verification methodology arises. And I
> use these tools. Also logic and other. For example
> you can find explanation for ayur-veda in system
> dynamics advanced course with mathematics. Quite
> shocking can be...

Please show me this. Ayurveda asks people to drink cow piss. That's shocking. That the Ayurveda and other pseudo-scinetifc works of ancient India were highly organized in their structure and teaching methods does not prove they worked or that they underwent even rudimentary scientific rigor.
>
>
> >
> [vanisource.org]
> >
> > Do you think people have time to make shit up
> > about this cult and write thousands of pages of
> > lecture transcripts to debunk some fringe cult?
>
> I do have. I do not have interest in cults.
> Already suffered because of the engagement in this
> cult. Anyway I did not loose the interest for the
> Truth.

Likewise. But my seeking truth has definitely read me to a near about face regarding anything related to Vaishnavism.
>
> > These groups abuse followers, kids, are
> involved
> > in shady money schemes, political power trips
> and
> > misinformation about nearly everything while
> > hiding behind a so-called hindu banner and
> crying
> > "religious bigotry" when they are revealed for
> the
> > bullshit peddlers that they are.
>
> True. Event nowadays if you listened to the people
> coming from SIF centers in USA there is
> utilitarianism in treating the people (business).
> They are slowly opening their eyes which is not
> easy.
>
> > Where in the Bible do you find any Madhurya
> Rasa?
> > Nowhere. Conjugal love is specific to the
> > Vaishnava cult of Bhakti. It is literally the
> ONLY
> > religion that speaks of devotees realizing
> their
> > eternal spiritual form as young gopi cowherd
> girls
> > who help Radha and Krishna get off in their
> "love
> > pastimes".
>
> Of course there is. But you have to remember i.e.
> that Jews got rid of the wife of Jahwe, Asherah.
> Etc.etc.
>
> Or take the traces from the Book of Genesis, where
> God creates man in his own image and likeness -
> woman and man. And not the man alone. A woman from
> Adam's rib. Not everything has been removed.
>
> But it is not the place and time to discuss that.


I agree this is not the place to discuss it, but I also disagree that there is any religion that is as bold in it's assertion that conjugal love with a divine deity is even on the table as a philosophical concept. Adam and Eve and goddesses being removed from biblical works is not remotely tantamount to the concept of Madhurya rasa as proposed by the Bhakti poets who created the idea.
>
>
> > The division in Butlers group and all of these
> > groups is very simple: Those who are in "Maya"
> and
> > those who are part of the cult and on the path
> to
> > "liberation" via the method of mantra chanting.
>
> In practice we may have groups in which
> understanding is shallow, or the party mentality
> bolts more subtle perception and so on. Party
> mentality means breaking yama. It's practically
> inevitable. That's how i see it but i can be
> wrong.
>
>
> > The various impersonalists and sahajiya and so
> > forth are all considered by the devotees like
> > Butler to be "demons" and in "Maya". So no, the
> > division is not over-simplified. That is truly
> the
> > way they see the world. That is how the kids
> are
> > raised and that is what is preached in the
> cult.
> > Plain and simple. Read through Vani—there is no
> > shortage of outlandish comments and ideas being
> > proposed. For every ounce of logic and reason
> > there is 1000 ounces of "woo woo" that you
> can't
> > unsee... but then again, I am a demon.
>
> True. In fact, however, all living entities have
> been given some form of freedom and their choice
> is whether they want to be in the spirit world or
> in specific areas of the material world. Freedom
> of choice. As far as it was offered to them. Love
> is freedom. Violation of freedom is a symptom of a
> lack of love. No one will be forced to love. And
> that was one of my allegations about the moods and
> behavior in SIF Poland against leaders, etc.
>
> Of course, someone brought up, for example, in
> honest non-clerical or nativity Catholicism or
> following the teachings of the Buddha, especially
> ahimsa, will not have attraction to aggressive
> attitudes. Notwithstanding that individual freedom
> and rights are in one way or another regulated by
> law.
>
> However, if someone asks the question whether
> sects for recruitment purposes color reality by
> exaggerating its flaws, this is true, and so it
> also looked at SIF Poland. Of course, the question
> of difference in value systems or levels of
> sensitivity arises again. Eg vegetarianism and not
> killing animals.

Free will is a false concept propagated by theistic schools, once again, creating a division of the superiority of those who "follow" the path and those that reject it. With the added concept of Karma and reincarnation—two things we can't even see, it adds the burden of adhering to the various rituals as mechanism to "purify" our "karmic" baggage. We of course don't have a clue how much karmic baggage we have as karma works in mysterious ways that we could never understand—hence again foiling our so-called free will. We don't quite know if bathing in a sacred river today will result in a better life tomorrow or what "better" really means. The karma kandha offers up ideas of material prosperity and riches—which in turn can once again spawn karmic reactions for "enjoying" those riches and comforts. It's a sick cycle. But wait! There is a solution: Surrender to Butler and chant a Indian mantra. Ahhhh. So simple.... But wait! Our level of faith is also dependent on so many karmic factors and "sukriti" of course—the evasive, ever elusive mysterious "spiritual merit" we get from—you guessed it—serving people like Butler... I could go on.

Now may I interest you in a story? So, 5000 years ago a sage was bummed out after writing the whole vedic scripture with the broken elephant tusk of the elephant headed god, Ganesh (how the god got a elephant head is a whole other story—told differently depending on what scripture you read). The bummed out sage (who knew sages can get bummed out?!) was visited by a traveling veena-playing space man and told to write down the epic stories of "Krishna" to get "real" happiness. The sage then wrote, non stop, the famous Srimad Bhagavatam and was finally satisfied and happy... Now Vyasa had a son who was so petrified of coming in contact with the external world that he camped out in his mothers womb for 12 years. Yes, you read that right folks. 12 whole years...

Questions anyone?

All of this is basically like discussing a episode of Looney Tunes, but being all serious about it. There is nothing of substance to discuss. If you want to come here and discuss real science and real psychology, I'm happy to plug in. Until then, we are discussing an adult baby called Chris Butler who can build a tall tower out of blocks and call it a monument.

VOX, dewatcher stated this. Not me.
"Killing a person or protecting a real offender from liability, even if worldly law is an imperfect version of yama, this is not a good symptom."

I don't speak in riddles. I just come out straight forward and tell it how it is. That boat accident was a cover-up. The man who died was a victim of butlers disciples arrogance along that beachfront for years. On butlets order and command. Sai Hansen was made out to look like a victim in the courtroom proceedings. The man got the most absolute lowest penalty for mowing over another human being carelessly on a boat. And that's not even to mention the fact that they were doing all of this on Butler's order. No one takes butlers $20,000 boat for a joy ride along the coast. It's just not what devotees do. They were asked to chase away tourists who might be swimming close to Butler's beach front view. And they had done that many times and been reported for it. Butler used to have his devotees Chase off many people from around his property vicinity and threaten people to move their cars that were parked close to various Gatherings and so forth. There are photographs of Butler's disciples filling up the boat with gas at local gas stations in Kailua. There are many reports to the police of the boat being driven up and down that Coast in a reckless fashion. Do the math.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2020 01:38PM by IanKoviak.

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please look at this article and sound logical
> argument against the notion of Free Will and how
> clear, concise and productive it is in terms of
> its application to a persons daily life.
>
> [www.google.com]
>

Good article. Conditioning always exists. You can be a full slave to your own conditioning, but you can gradually get consciousness. Buddha and demons, Jung's psychology, yoga niyama etc. At least internal insight and recognition of the schematicity of motorisms of one's own psyche, neurokinetics or e.g. dichotomy resulting from the existence of two brain hemispheres or understanding what the cerebellum is for. So the brain structure of beings on planet Earth (men and women, different structure) as opposed to hypothetical other beings. No longer going into deeper aspects such as the stability of a multi-layered neural network with feedback, and what results from it.

Bhagavag Gita addresses this aspect with the concept of "the field of activities and of the knower of activities"
"The fields of activities" are different. Because of mentality, conditions.

[asitis.com]

Quote

That knowledge of the field of activities and of the knower of activities is described by various sages in various Vedic writings-especially in the Vedanta-sutra-and is presented with all reasoning as to cause and effect.

But even examples from history show that you can go against the tide. Here a glorious example of German Jehovah's Witnesses. They refused to serve the Nazi regime, for which they were persecuted, imprisoned and murdered.


> Now, contrast this against a typical Hari Krishna
> forum where everyone is giving their illogical,
> hodge podge opinions based on no science, reason
> or logic. Just blind religious fanaticism at its
> finest, in the end, resulting in no clear answer
> and applicable Avenue of action:
>
> [iskcondesiretree.com]

>
> It's almost painful to realize that I spent
> majority of my formative years as a youth trying
> to justify Against All Odds this philosophical
> mumbo jumbo. Don't even get me started on the
> origin of the Jiva debate.

Shallow understanding in religious groups is not surprising. First of all, hardly anyone is interested in profound spiritual realization or science. Shallow ritualism or shallow cultivity is a kind of psychological death insurance, but the goal is generally material strictly existence. Another type of shallowness is participation in a religious group where the classic maneuver or narrative is "only we are right and only our organization saves". "Our church is an institution of salvation." This automatically deprives you of a determination to thoroughly understand. The next way is party structure. Our party is the best. Since it is the best, why dive into the understanding of the Bible or the Bhagavad Gita.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2020 07:08PM by DaWatcher.