There is no seva for an insane man.

If the fruits are bad, reason can be i.e.:

[*] students insincerity
[*] material motive
[*] offense
[*] lack of knowledge
[*] disease
[*] control imposed
[*] abuses due hierarchical utilitarianism
[*] forgery of communication
[*] mismatched naimittika dharma (ie. modified for drug addicts applied to satva-kids)

Of course as on "Stress" material of Mr. Midget and Ukrainian "looking scared" student, there can be misunderstanding of the realities. For example Mr. Midget talks about the extravagant lifestyle. The reality of Ukrainians was that they earned $ 50 per month. When they came to Poland, e.g. for looking after elderly people, women earned about USD 500 per month. 10 times higher. Is this an argument about the source of stress by Mr. Midget "Always happy" that suits Ukrainian realities?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2020 04:50AM by DaWatcher.

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's one thing to adjust a disciples respective or
> give some chastisement for a small
> misunderstanding. Butler has had rules like this
> in place for YEARS. Many devotees have received
> letters condemning them of "not caring about their
> spiritual master" and thereby negating their
> ability to make some advancement spiritually. That
> is the crux of it. Butler sets up his disciples
> for failure by either putting unneeded stress on
> them about his care or literally controlling every
> aspect of his care where using ones own brain and
> common sense becomes null. This creates a literal
> mental handicap in his followers. Not to mention
> in Butler himself as a guru. Ritual seva is one
> thing. This is narcissistic control over eery
> aspect of a followers life. And guess what happens
> when y9ou cannot take it anymore? You get harshly

> You know how many
> letters we were read as kids that condemed out
> parents or top devotees we looked up to because
> they missed a step on a policy list like this or
> had to tend to their own fucking kids once in a
> while??? We lived in constant stress and anxiety
> of displeasing butler and going to hell—lifetime
> after lifetime.

Take into account that we did not know many things in Poland. Anyway, it depended on what position one had as a lamb. There were 2 charismatic leaders, center leaders and other initiates. There was a "caste" of "more serious" initiated among them. There were uninitiated sheep but "did a lot" and, for example, some people were classified as "sympathizer". The very idea of "classification" in the context of "offering a leaf, fruit, some water" aroused objection. There were "initiates" meetings to which ordinary sheep were not generally invited. It can be concluded that it was also a tool for building the "superiority of the caste".

From among the letters and "controversial lectures" it reached the middle-level sheep certainly not as much as you describe. The dominant majority of lectures were free from the disadvantages described. We received lectures classified at different levels. However, there were symptoms of "incorrectness" - for me personally one of the first was a lecture where the question was discussed that one of the children in a situation where he had personal contact with Chris Butler when he entered the room, on the other hand there was an altar with a photo of Chris Butler, the child could not behave. The words "stupid kid" were spoken. It was a bad signal for me. If you don't have personal contact with the guru for a long time, or if you don't have personal contact with the guru at all, then refer to the photo. This gives rise to a number of effects. Acclimated. Builds a certain concept of proper behavior.

There was pressure to send children to school in the Philippines, this was considered serious. For me absurd.

Anyway, there were signals that "something is wrong" that years later resulted in incidents or scandals. Some symptoms were seen early. For example, at a retreat in the mountains, in Wisla or Zawoja, lectures were given by Tusta Krishna das. Meanwhile, one of the charismatic leaders began to give lectures to the adoration circle in the corridor between the lectures. I was surprised at how correct it is to speak at an authority meeting. Either way, this leader gathered a delighted circle of Adorers. Most women admirers.

In your case, the school victims, in addition to reliable accounts, simply need hard evidence. That there would be no way to open the denial.


> Affection and chastisement do coexist as a way of
> teaching and applying discipline. But when they
> negate any room for using ones own common sense
> about things the disciple never learns anything.
> They simply follow a rigid system of thought and
> that crosses over into every aspect of their life.
> they literally cannot function without the
> directive of the guru about EVERYTHING. A guru is
> a spiritual teacher—not a psychologist, doctor or
> academic teacher. When a guru starts to exert this
> level of totalitarian control over his followers
> it becomes a form of narcism. How can any one
> human being—spiritually advanced or
> otherwise—dictate this much power? Of course the
> disciple will fuck up. And then what? Are they to
> live in a vortex of endless chastisement and
> anxiety about pleasing their guru's specific
> "tastes". Krishna asks in the Gita that his
> devotee offer him a flower, leaf, water—Butler is
> asking nothing short of a miracle of his devotees.

This is an important issue. Does accepting authority really mean a sense of inferiority? Taking a lower position than Guru means accepting that he knows me or understands better. If a disciplined student loses this attitude for one reason or another - discipline - depending on the circumstances - may make him aware of it or help him restore it. That he would not be controlled by his ego. On the other hand, inducing a lasting sense of guilt or a sense of inferiority is a way to full control and can lead to abuse. That's how I see it.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2020 05:16PM by DaWatcher.

An important phenomenon to describe is also deep internalization of the idea of hierarchy in the group, concepts, habits, attachments, from which it is not easy to break away later. Habit is present both in hierarchy activists and low-level sheep.

I will give an anonymous example that shows the effects. Let's say we have a 3rd generation recruit sheep. This devotee is kind, serious, has his material commitments but he is sincerely engaged in a service that is beneficial to society. He visits lonely old people in nursing homes, offers prasadam, sells tapes with mantras that they like (mild, warm and melodic), he pays attention, gives mantras, makes kirtans, etc.

And now the point.

Decentralization is taking place in Poland. Instructions are being given and formal centers are being liquidated, there are no more leaders. There is no organizational hierarchy. Instructions are given to work with people you like etc. Own projects, own initiative. Theoretically. In practice there is a "council of wise men".

This kind devotee works in the city. There is evident social benefit - he visits and feeds old people prasadam, spreads the Holy Name. It was a big city, it was a center, so there was a leader here.

And suddenly the old leader comes to our nice devotee and says heavy words - "you haven't consulted your action with me so your action is not BONA FIDE".

Awesome isn't it? Giving prasadam and the Holy Name after decentralization is not BONA FIDE ..



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2020 05:54PM by DaWatcher.

It is not bonafide at all.

They are told to show initiative then shamed for doing what they're been told to do.

IMO this is mind fuckery.

It throws the recruits off balance, instills fear of their own initiative.

All to make recruits controllable and submissic to local leader after "decentralization"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2020 04:28AM by corboy.

corboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is not bonafide at all.
>
> They are told to show initiative then shamed for
> doing what they're been told to do.

One may wonder whether it was actually a methodology or just a habit of governance. According to officially announced expectations - a habit to rule.

> IMO this is mind fuckery.

What about energy?


> It throws the recruits off balance, instills fear
> of their own initiative.

True, so the people go to tell this.

Classic. Control over even the acts giving prashadam and the name gets blasted for not being a bonafide activity because someone on the fringe of the group has not given approval. Everything has to be done in some abstract specific way to appease the guru's taste and style. There is no independence and personal relationship with god. It's all through the conduit of the guru who is himself going things so far removed from his own masters teachings and style let alone the sampradhaya. And no one questions it one way or the other. They bow, cry and seek forgiveness in a constant loop of self deprecation and guilt. How is this remotely different from other religions/cults? It's the same formula applied to different myths and dogma. It's brahmanism 2.0. The hierarchy is so bluntly evident it hurts. Sanyasis and brahmans are considered to be somehow the abstract link to god yet there is no real explanation what it is that they are doing that is so different from the other bhaktas—by what method is surrender measured? So Balkhilya is doing some videos and has a group of ardent worshippers and thereby qualifies somehow as a top vaishnava. But if a Bhakta does the same activity—Makes some video, chants. talks about self realization etc—he is not acknowledged and is instead criticized for his endeavors. And the cycle goes on.

This forum has always been a way for me to shed light on the incongruences and contradictions of this cult and others in the same line. It's happening all throughout the Gaudiya Math and other ISKCON offshoots. It's a mental riot. And they always need new blood to keep the whole sham afloat.

If you ask me if I recognize candidates who carry the hierarchy concept or actively support it by express expectations to engage into "their" projects after decentralization (not now, several years ago) - at the top or somewhere more in the middle - yes. Were there any controversies related to these candidates regarding "illicit activities"? - yes (not all).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2020 05:48PM by DaWatcher.

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But
> if a Bhakta does the same activity—Makes some
> video, chants. talks about self realization etc—he
> is not acknowledged and is instead criticized for
> his endeavors. And the cycle goes on.

During the times of centers, or times of centralization, there were such events that the caring initiative j, actually caring in the area of professional specialization of a devotee met with criticism that it was not discussed with the headquarters.

This element also came out in the second most tragic sequence of events in Poland, when one of the devotees was beaten by bandits and died in a hospital in a terrible condition. The quick actions of one devotee with friends were confronted with expectation for communication through the hierarchy (slow reaction in the critical moments). The devotee ignored it and for me it became another milestone in realizing the problem or confirming the problem.

Cognitive dissonance

Another PSA:


[www.youtube.com]