They probably feel that the Yoga Nidra practice is purified by dovetailing it with Mantra meditation. This is the general justification for a lot of concessions the Cult makes regarding core traditions. If you Dovetail with service to Guru and Krishna its Justified and purified.

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DaWatcher:

> There is no rigorous scientific proof that
> mediation or yoga Nidra will give you any more
> rest and recovery than getting 7-8 hours of rest.

You can always try in public lecture to ask Mr. Midgett for scientific proof. But I do not know if he will answer - there is such a tricky system of notes in lectures. If you have questions, write a note and some cards will be collected and taken to Mr. Midget. And he will choose what to answer.

Why? Probably because Mr. Midget doesn't like uncomfortable questions. It's definitely better to tumble and recruit sheep without uncomfortable incidents in the form of overly intelligent questioners.

Besides, he said it himself - that members of the Gaudiya Math "ask such tricky questions". This is obviously bad - ask tricky questions Mr. Midget who would like a chameleon in comfort dumb the next delivery of sheep on "follow-up".

And here we recall that in the tradition of India there were pandit disputes, which the audience listened to. In the name of striving for truth and in the name of protecting sheep.

There are stories about Sri Caitanya defeating known pandits - philosophers and speakers.

But as you understand - Mr. Midget must remain an unbeatable speaker - so it's better to introduce sticky notes system ... These tricky questions ...

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do you honestly think that chanting a mantra or
> some yoga Nidra practice has more power than
> evolutionary nature has built into the equation of
> organic rest and recovery mechanisms?


For me, the problem has the opposite face. If yoga nidra is part of a modified mystic yoga system, any type of yoga is taught that one who is taught this system must have:
- knowledge of the ultimate goal and price of the system,
- a guru who will help him practice,
- the system must be adapted or suited to his conditions.

Let's give it a SIF spin-off introduces someone to the practice of yoga-nidra. My question is - where is the Guru? Which will help in practice? He is on Hawai. Well, that means he's not here.

So maybe it's better not to hurt anyone and teach yoga-nidra because it's an element of mystical practice ...


IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> voice singing some made up
> mantras like "Haribo Nitai Gaur" to sleep like
> babies again.

Well, I listened to the recorded mantras for a long time. I liked "Mantra Electric" but this tape drove my parents crazy. Electric guitars - no, they didn't like it.

Anyway, I listened to the whole set. I liked some of them and rested, some of them tired me. The part that tired was played at the center, so there was no choice.

Finally, in the name of freedom, I chose the part that I liked :)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2019 04:58PM by DaWatcher.

Yeah I liked Mantra Electric too, but for lack of being allowed to listen to anything else.

This whole yoga Nidra things is funny in that the inventor was accused of sexual misconduct. I never understood why these groups continue to promote the work of these less savory characters. Just drop it like a bad habit and move on. The guy was obviously a fraud.It only puts a bad light on your cult if you keep bad company.

When these cults don't admit to the wrong they have done or explain their behaviors to progressive society and explain why they do XY and Z, they are putting themselves at a disadvantage in terms of the quality of followers they attract. If you have followers that join ISKCON and like the ideas there but they fail to clarify and ask how a perfect swami could allow sex abuse in his schools, you in effect become complicit if you just go along with it all.

If you join Gaudiya Math and don't question and ask for clarity about the method of Siddhanta Saraswati taking diska in a dream or Butler marrying his woman disciple who happened to be a successful money make in the Asia yoga scene—you are not doing your due diligence in approaching a master and asserting their motives and agenda.

We are told to approach such personalities with humility and submissive surrender, but we also live in a time where many things are lacking in clarity. If we live in a so-called kali age of chaos and confusion, then we need to adjust how a guru is approached. I f we just approach a sage in a forest 2000 years ago, we are probably fairly safe in our assertion that the man has lived a simple life in the forest in deep sadhana. But in this day and age, when we approach a guru sitting in a tinfoiled room who has an successful business yoga personality as a wife and is involved in politics and many fraudulent business ventures, you have to adjust how you approach such a person. Perhaps still with humility and inquisitiveness, but also with a little rationalism and reserve.

I look at a lot of YouTube lectures of various Gaudiya Gurus and go to their websites to see if anything of more substance is being said and what I find is silly lectures about the glory of the Laws of Manu which have NO PLACE in contemporary society and are actually very bigoted and flawed in their understanding of human psychology and social structures. They are base on caste system and are derogatory to women and disadvantage minorities. Not to mention, it's my understanding that the whole purpose of the Bhakti movement in India was to steer clear of the Caste system—yet we have contemporary acharyas area hing this garbage.

I have seen so many lectures that are so misinformed about astronomy, science and modern advances in psychology that it's really tragic to see people taking it seriously. And everyone just sits there, kids included, crying 'JAI GURUDEV!". No logical questions or arguments are posed by devotees. They live in a mental lockdown of paranoia that if they shake the tree they are going to cause an avalanche of aparadha. It's tragic. There is no rigor. Just blind surrender without even fully understanding the method or formula of what they are being asked to do.

Devotees are quick to shy away from any discussion or argument and hide behind the "hindu-phobia" wall as a way to avoid systematic verification. Indian Philosophy is rich with argument, dialogue and rational verification of various systems of thought and yet the Gaudiya's time and again will simply cry "Sahajiya!!!", "Mayavadhi!", "Karmi!!!", "Sense enjoyer!" "Lack of sukriti!!!", "Apharadhi!!"... You would think the whole thing was so fragile that the great god Krishna and his minions cannot answer a few simple arguments and attacks against their ever-fragile faith. They want people to just approach the whole religion like a teenager buying their first car. Just accept what the car dealer is saying and keep your head down and tail between your legs. God forbid you offend the car salesman.

The whole idea of being lower than a bad of grass gets lost in the there arrogance of it all. No attempt is made to engage with the public. Tulsi is a master of this. There are videos of her guru saying vile things about the gay community and she has never once addressed it or said, "Yeah, I don't agree with that sentiment".

On the topic of Guru and disciple relationship, historically in India, a guru had a very small serious group of devotees they could tend to and give practical guidance to. Now days, you would be hard pressed to find a guru who has less than a 1000 disciples. How can any attention be given to them? Butler was and is notoriously unavailable and inaccessible to his disciples and new followers. Old videos and feel-good snippets of his words are meant to act as a guide for devotees. In that sense I am not surprised that they are teaching Yoga Nidra etc since the are on their own to make things up an crate their own meaning about what they are doing. Anyone will prefer to hear soothing guitar and melodic mantra singing compared to the clamor and mayhem of the average brijabasi Babaji kirtan: [www.youtube.com] one is palatable to the western mind and the other is authentic style chanting from the heart by completely surrendered practitioners.

Butler has always made a business of packaging the Gaudiya lineage in a "pleasant package". I am not surprised his disciples follow suit with their adaptation of the yoga Nidra practice. This is common in many spiritual groups. They dovetail grunge metal music with Jesus Christ and have Buddha day care for kids where kids will paint Buddhist prayer flags. These are hardly authentic expressions of anything remotely Indian. They are doing this to appeal to rich westerners. And so the story goes round and round—it ends up becoming about power and money and control and less about the simple message they thought they were preaching.

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah I liked Mantra Electric too, but for lack of
> being allowed to listen to anything else.
>
> This whole yoga Nidra things is funny in that the
> inventor was accused of sexual misconduct. I never
> understood why these groups continue to promote
> the work of these less savory characters. Just
> drop it like a bad habit and move on. The guy was
> obviously a fraud.It only puts a bad light on your
> cult if you keep bad company.

This is not a surprise. Ultimately, "being a person" is associated with having some form and a tendency to put feelings in the other person's possessing form. One or other practice, having some impersonal character will allow a man to maintain a certain level, but inevitably there will be a return to contemplation and placing feelings or opening to a person who has form - in this case material and related consequences - sexual attraction.


IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When these cults don't admit to the wrong they
> have done or explain their behaviors to
> progressive society and explain why they do XY and
> Z, they are putting themselves at a disadvantage
> in terms of the quality of followers they attract.
> If you have followers that join ISKCON and like
> the ideas there but they fail to clarify and ask
> how a perfect swami could allow sex abuse in his
> schools, you in effect become complicit if you
> just go along with it all.

This was also true for SIF Poland (denial) but not hard. In PR-sense It is better to deny incidents. Of course, sensitive member are not stupid and this causes a loss of confidence, whether to leaders or organizations, etc. Of course, friendships with positive people remain.


IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you join Gaudiya Math and don't question and
> ask for clarity about the method of Siddhanta
> Saraswati taking diska in a dream or Butler
> marrying his woman disciple who happened to be a
> successful money make in the Asia yoga scene—you
> are not doing your due diligence in approaching a
> master and asserting their motives and agenda.


The question of whether or not due diligence in approaching the master and investigating his motives and agenda is done in order to choose a relatively comfortable "psychologically" and "spiritually" sangha - this "external everyday life" or is it ready to search for the Absolute alone, regardless of the cost. Paradoxically or maybe normally as someone "got in the ass in SIF or other", the second option is much easier.

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We are told to approach such personalities with
> humility and submissive surrender, but we also
> live in a time where many things are lacking in
> clarity. If we live in a so-called kali age of
> chaos and confusion, then we need to adjust how a
> guru is approached. I f we just approach a sage in
> a forest 2000 years ago, we are probably fairly
> safe in our assertion that the man has lived a
> simple life in the forest in deep sadhana. But in
> this day and age, when we approach a guru sitting
> in a tinfoiled room who has an successful business
> yoga personality as a wife and is involved in
> politics and many fraudulent business ventures,
> you have to adjust how you approach such a person.
> Perhaps still with humility and inquisitiveness,
> but also with a little rationalism and reserve.

Well, at this point I can wander around for a while, try applying the teachings. Examine how instructions, the atmosphere or energy affect me. Am I able to observe the progress by making an objective assessment - did I take the instructions seriously, or did I put effort, to what extent were the highly practical instructions compared to the upbringing I received or the behaviors I observed in close surroundings. Regardless of the philosophy, I collect naimittika dharma - objective research material. Of course, we can say that let's say arrogance or such or other mechanisms caused me to miss "guru kripa", samskar and so on - somewhere in this existence I made a sincere decision, put effort, gave up materialistic life and if the "research" material is not outstanding - I can honestly say - we go further, somewhere else.

Man has to have a pair of eyes and ears open. Does it concern the Catholic Church, Bhakti Yoga sangha, state justice, and so on. If one has suspicion or faith in God's existence along with faith in his justice, then generally the falsehood or deviations of the alleged "shepherds" no longer matter.



IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I look at a lot of YouTube lectures of various
> Gaudiya Gurus and go to their websites to see if
> anything of more substance is being said and what
> I find is silly lectures about the glory of the
> Laws of Manu which have NO PLACE in contemporary
> society and are actually very bigoted and flawed
> in their understanding of human psychology and
> social structures. They are base on caste system
> and are derogatory to women and disadvantage
> minorities. Not to mention, it's my understanding
> that the whole purpose of the Bhakti movement in
> India was to steer clear of the Caste system—yet
> we have contemporary acharyas area hing this
> garbage.


When it comes to Manu's laws - physical reality is as it is. There are many laws of nature and they are objective. Regardless of what the preacher says about the action of a 2kg hammer on my finger, if I hit a 2kg hammer on my toe, the effect is predictable. It can be understood that for people from the Indian community who do not have Western academic upbringing, one or another system or educational rigor is acceptable and natural. Not necessarily for a western man. Nevertheless, it can be said that the symbolism, mythology, reductionism written down in the scriptures is some sort of targeted attempt at describing, accurate for the mentality and understanding of the times it appeared but anyway there is mutual mapping. If the attempt to describe is accurate and actual rather than a collection of myths.

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have seen so many lectures that are so
> misinformed about astronomy, science and modern
> advances in psychology that it's really tragic to
> see people taking it seriously. And everyone just
> sits there, kids included, crying 'JAI GURUDEV!".
> No logical questions or arguments are posed by
> devotees. They live in a mental lockdown of
> paranoia that if they shake the tree they are
> going to cause an avalanche of aparadha. It's
> tragic. There is no rigor. Just blind surrender
> without even fully understanding the method or
> formula of what they are being asked to do.

I know some Polish analysts who, looking through the eyes of western academic knowledge, "read" eastern reductionisms.


IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Devotees are quick to shy away from any discussion
> or argument and hide behind the "hindu-phobia"
> wall as a way to avoid systematic verification.
> Indian Philosophy is rich with argument, dialogue
> and rational verification of various systems of
> thought and yet the Gaudiya's time and again will
> simply cry "Sahajiya!!!", "Mayavadhi!",
> "Karmi!!!", "Sense enjoyer!" "Lack of sukriti!!!",
> "Apharadhi!!"... You would think the whole thing
> was so fragile that the great god Krishna and his
> minions cannot answer a few simple arguments and
> attacks against their ever-fragile faith. They
> want people to just approach the whole religion
> like a teenager buying their first car. Just
> accept what the car dealer is saying and keep your
> head down and tail between your legs. God forbid
> you offend the car salesman.


If it is true to say that when a student is ready, a guru will appear - assuming the existence of God and His willingness to make Him known - then a meeting of two interested parties with mutually acceptable preferences for a lower mutual nature should take place. Perhaps not in this reincarnation.


IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On the topic of Guru and disciple relationship,
> historically in India, a guru had a very small
> serious group of devotees they could tend to and
> give practical guidance to. Now days, you would be
> hard pressed to find a guru who has less than a
> 1000 disciples. How can any attention be given to
> them? Butler was and is notoriously unavailable
> and inaccessible to his disciples and new
> followers. Old videos and feel-good snippets of
> his words are meant to act as a guide for
> devotees. In that sense I am not surprised that
> they are teaching Yoga Nidra etc since the are on
> their own to make things up an crate their own
> meaning about what they are doing. Anyone will
> prefer to hear soothing guitar and melodic mantra
> singing compared to the clamor and mayhem of the
> average brijabasi Babaji kirtan:
> [www.youtube.com] one is
> palatable to the western mind and the other is
> authentic style chanting from the heart by
> completely surrendered practitioners.

However, Poland is a happy country - there are other students of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. And they are available. Guru should be available. Fundamental statement of the Bhagavad Gita - to approach a self-realized person, ask humble questions, serve with devotion. If a system representative appears and the offer does not follow the Bhagavad Gita hint - thank you, I'm going somewhere else. Well, unless it takes some time "due diligence".



IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Butler has always made a business of packaging the
> Gaudiya lineage in a "pleasant package". I am not
> surprised his disciples follow suit with their
> adaptation of the yoga Nidra practice. This is
> common in many spiritual groups. They dovetail
> grunge metal music with Jesus Christ and have
> Buddha day care for kids where kids will paint
> Buddhist prayer flags. These are hardly authentic
> expressions of anything remotely Indian. They are
> doing this to appeal to rich westerners. And so
> the story goes round and round—it ends up becoming
> about power and money and control and less about
> the simple message they thought they were
> preaching.

A simple question - is there an element of transcendental realization or at least more than a physical one such as the daily OBE after the morning meditation program. If everything revolves around worldly psychology, ritual or social relations - then the question is whether it is of interest.

Hi DaWatcher:

I appreciate your reply. I am not sure if it is a confusion on my part or a language barrier, but I have a very difficult time following your wording and writing style. It's just hard for me to follow the points you are making. I am not sure if polish is your first language, but please do feel free to post in Polish. I can read in Polish and we can use good translate if it is ore helpful. I just get lost with any clear points being made in your writing. I get the general idea, but then it sort of cuts up and drifts thematically.

Philosophy and spiritual systems are only as successful as the results they yield and how intelligible they are by the common person, otherwise it becomes a elitist jargon and no one benefits except the the person who proposes the superiority of the system in question.

Manu Samhita is not relevant to contemporary society. I doubt it serviced much more than ancient brahmical society even at it's height of popularity. To have a contemporary vaishnava guru praising the laws of Manu in a contemporary context is, to me, a great disservice to devotees. Devotees should be learning to live in progress society and apply their ideas in a contemporary context. Attempting to re-create or somehow impose varnashram dharma and Vedic law and civilization on contemporary culture is absurd and a bad use of power on the part of any religious teacher. It gives people the false notion that they should try to emulate an archaic system in a contemporary setting when much of the ideas in the Vedic literature and law books has been scientifically proven false or impractical or downright offensive.


I think approaching a guru and asking questions in the totalitarian way of humility and surrender is not applicable in todays society. There is WAY too many cheaters and confusing instructions being given by these teachers and they should be held accountable to give honest and clear answers and be ready to be challenged. We are not simple minded villagers and uneducated masses from some prehistoric society. The average child questions God and the legitimacy of many religious schools. People deserve to approach spiritual matters with as much comprehensiveness as they apply to closing political leaders, buying insurance or seeking medical advice. We are after all living in times where spiritual traditions take advantage of many of the comforts and advances of contemporary life: The internet, advances in science, psychology and better grasp of historical events. It should not be a naive quest to find a spiritual path/teacher based on some abstract notion of faith and smaskara and sukriti. These ideas mean nothing in contemporary society. They are distractions from the matter at hand for the intelligent spiritual seeker.

There is a massive fallout of vaishnava devotees both practicing and ex-members. They want to feel sheltered in a spiritual path and setting but they often find the whole thing has grown too big for its britches. Devotees are left with little to no practical, applicable guidance. They are left with YouTube videos about the Laws of Manu by high-ranking members of supposed authentic spiritual teachers. They are told to practice yoga Nidra to new-age guitar leads and do hatha yoga when this has very little in nothing to do with the deeper philosophy of Gaudiya Vaishnavas. They are, as you say, getting Ketchup and Peanut Butter sandwiches and told that it's Apple Pie.

As an atheist I believe all this stuff is nonsense to begin with anyway, but in the very least I believe the sincere seeker who is interested in these groups should do their homework and be very very careful to not swallow any pill that looks funny. Use your "god given" brain and challenge these clowns. Challenge them till they crack and sweat and get angry and run away. But, if they answer your questions and it aligns with rational and progressive social values, then give it a go—but never let your guard down. Surrender should not be some immediate requirement for any sincere seeker. A person should spend much of their spiritual career using their power of discrimination and have a healthy sense of reserve in all maters of so-called surrender to the group or teacher. My 2¢.

Tulsi Gabbard votes ‘present’ on Trump’s impeachment.
What an idiot she is.

Must be some mindfulness technique she's practicing. Being present is very zen of her. LOL.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2019 01:52AM by IanKoviak.

Unbelievable-

[www.reuters.com]


Joint Chiefs of Staff: "Madame President, we have incoming missles, what should we do?"

Tulsi Gabbard: "I vote present."

Joint Chiefs of Staff: "Madame President, there are 1,000,000 immigrants climbing the fence at our southern border, what should we do?"

Tulsi Gabbard: "I vote present"


Joint Chiefs of Staff: "Madame President...... oh never mind."

Present...

IanKoviak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi DaWatcher:

> I appreciate your reply. I am not sure if it is a
> confusion on my part or a language barrier, but I
> have a very difficult time following your wording
> and writing style. It's just hard for me to follow
> the points you are making. I am not sure if polish
> is your first language, but please do feel free to
> post in Polish. I can read in Polish and we can
> use good translate if it is ore helpful. I just
> get lost with any clear points being made in your
> writing. I get the general idea, but then it sort
> of cuts up and drifts thematically.

PL:

Moj pierwszy jezyk to jezyk polski. Sprawy ktore dyskutujemy nie dosc ze sa zawile, to dotycza dodatkowo spraw, gdzie powinna byc obecna wyrafinowana
lingwistyka. Postaram sie odniesc do ponizszych kwestii. Poniewaz jest to forum anglojezyczne, to wychodzac naprzeciw prosbie ale takze majac na uwadze, ze czytajacy uzytkownicy znaja jezyk angielski a Ciebie prosze o tlumaczenie i jak inni uzytkownicy watku uznaja ze to dobra forma abym pisal po polsku a Ty abys tlumaczyl to mozna w ten sposob sprobowac przedyskutowac pare kwestii. Niestety musze sie pozbyc znakow polskich.

EN:
My first language is Polish. The matters that we discuss are not only complicated, they also relate to matters where sophisticated linguistics should be present. I will try to address the following issues. Because this is an English-language forum, it is to meet the request but also bearing in mind that reading users know English and you are asking for translation and as other users of the thread recognize that it is a good form for me to write in Polish and that you can translate it this way try to discuss some issues.

> Philosophy and spiritual systems are only as
> successful as the results they yield and how
> intelligible they are by the common person,
> otherwise it becomes a elitist jargon and no one
> benefits except the the person who proposes the
> superiority of the system in question.

PL:
Dokladnie. Duchowa realizacja powinna byc rozumiana jako doswiadczenie spoza ciala i umyslu.

> Manu Samhita is not relevant to contemporary
> society. I doubt it serviced much more than
> ancient brahmical society even at it's height of
> popularity. To have a contemporary vaishnava guru
> praising the laws of Manu in a contemporary
> context is, to me, a great disservice to devotees.
> Devotees should be learning to live in progress
> society and apply their ideas in a contemporary
> context. Attempting to re-create or somehow impose
> varnashram dharma and Vedic law and civilization
> on contemporary culture is absurd and a bad use of
> power on the part of any religious teacher. It
> gives people the false notion that they should try
> to emulate an archaic system in a contemporary
> setting when much of the ideas in the Vedic
> literature and law books has been scientifically
> proven false or impractical or downright
> offensive.

To jest bardzo obszerny temat. Koncepcja materialistyczna zaklada ze byt ksztaltuje swiadomosc. Zorganizowana materia wylania samoswiadomosc. Koncepcja duchowa zaklada, ze swiadomosc ksztaltuje byt. W przypadku filozofii Wedanta - w jej roznych nurtach czy etapach. Dualizm ducha i materii jest ostry w hinduzmie. W przypadku religii katolickiej ostry nie jest - byc moze bedzie zmartwywstanie w tych samych cialach, byc moze jednak w tych, ktorych blask niebieski jest inny niz ziemski. Tak czy siak zakladajac koncepcje duchowa - personalistyczna, gdzie osoba Bog - dokonuje stworzenia a aktorami doczesnych zajec sa inne duchowe istoty, obleczone w fizyczne ciala i spetane rozmaitymi z tym prawami zwiazanymi, to zakladamy, ze prawa zwiazane z organizacja wszechswiata zostaly narzucone. Aspekty zarowno techniczne jak i kwestie prawne - regulujace stosunki miedzy aktorami. Czyli innymi slowy mowiac konflikty interesow, naruszanie cudzego dobra i tak dalej. W biblijnym ujeciu mozna przypomniec wspomina sie, iz z milosci pochodza Prawo i prorocy. Tam gdzie nie ma milosci tam powstaje koniecznosc uregulowania stosunkow. W zyciu doczesnym przykladowo w Polsce sprawy reguluje prawo kodeksowe: kodeks karny, kodeks cywilny itd. A jesli chodzi o postepowania to np. kodeks postepowania karnego, kodeks postepowania cywilnego. Sam system nazywany panstwo tez jest zorganizowany a na styku mechanizmow i konfliktow obywatel panstwo funkcjonuje kodeks postepowania administracyjnego. Precedensy w prawie rozwiazywane sa inaczej.

Jesli natomiast nie wiemy, czy swiat zostal zorganizowany swiadomie z istniejacymi prawami przez Stworce, czy tez zgodnie z prawami fizyki po Wielkim
Wybuchu, lub tez z ksztaltowaniem sie tych praw fizyki w trakcie jak np. w zwiazku z utrata symetrii itd., grawitowaniem materii, powstawaniem zorganizowanych zwiazkow organicznych opartych na weglu a gdzies indziej niz warunki ziemskie byc moze na krzemie czy inaczej, to pozostaje empiryczne studiowanie tych praw.

Ostatecznie jednak rzeczywistosc to rzeczywistosc. I generalnie rozne rodzaje analizy czy opisy rzeczywistosci jesli sa prawdziwe i efektem skrupulatnego badania powinny sie ze soba mapowac. Przynajmniej w zakresie domeny widzianej - studiowalnej zmyslami fizycznymi.

Prawidla nie dostrzegalne bezposrednio zmyslami lub ich mechanika wykraczajaca poza liniowe rozumienie zmian np. wymagajaca znajomosci takich aspektow jak rownania rozniczkowe, dynamika systemow itp. jest to juz wyzsza szkola jazdy.

Jak w tym wszystkim jest usytuowana Manu Samhita? Dla czlowieka zachodu wypadaloby przedstawic jej uzasadnienie z uzyciem pojec czlowieka Zachodu. Wypadaloby takze gruntownie przestudiowac opis stworzenia, poczawszy od Pradhany, Mahat Tatvy i dalej np. ze srimad Bhagavatam. Obadac koncepcje 3 sil natury materialnej. Mozna obadac skrotowe alegoryczne opisy z Biblii w tym temacie np. alegoryczny opis historii Kaina i Abla, ktory jest opisem dzialania 3 sil natury materialnej. Abel w gunie dobroci sklada ofiary Jahwe, wznosi sie, jest transcendentny. Kain zwiazany sila pasji rozwija chciwosc. Jest tu mapowanie na jeden dzial matematyki. Tendencja zachowan w sile pasji to ryzyko konfliktow, gdzie traca obie strony. Gniew, kontrola guny ignorancji. Kain zabija Abla.

Nie jest to juz konflikt interesow ale egzystencjalny. Gra o sumie ujemnej.Czy system Varnasrama Dharma moze miec zastosowanie albo cos wniesc? Po pierwsze, zgodnie z I Canto srimad Bhagavatam to system ten zaczal upadac ze wzgledu na brak kwalifikacji braminow, co zostalo zobrazowane stosowna historia. Druga sprawa - czy Varnasrama Dharma to magiczne haslo na ktorego dzwiek audytorium dozna oswiecenia i zmieni swiat? No z doswiadczenia nie bardzo i nie pomogly temu wieczory kultury wedyjskiej z palonymi tanimi zapachowymi swieczkami ani smaczna szarlotka.

Varnasrama Dharma natomiast to system, gdzie jest obecny i podzial rol spolecznych i etapow zycia wedle kwalifikacji i stosownych okresow. Role spoleczne sa zalezne od uwarunkowan psychofizycznych. Tendencji jednostki. I taka koncepcja moze wniesc wartosc dodana do wspolczesnego spoleczenstwa, jakie ono obecnie by nie bylo.

Dlaczego? Jezeli uwzglednimy podzial na braminow, kszatriow, vajsiow i sudrow to samo w sobie nazewnictwo wiele nie daje. Kwestia jest, jak te kwalifikacje i tendencje zostaly opisane i czy ten podzial dalej moze funkcjonowac. Wg srimad Bhagavatam nie za bardzo. Kolejna sprawa to pozycje spoleczna a lad proponowany przez Varnasrama Dharma. Wypadaloby aby na swiecie majatek i wladze sprawowali kszatriowie, cos na ksztalt rycerskich wlascicieli ziemskich. No obecnie mamy dominacje wlasnosci albo miliarderow, korporacj, funduszy z poukrywanymi wlascicielami oraz majatek panstw. Dosc daleko. Na dodatek kieruja sie oni zyskiem lub w przypadku panstw realizacja interesow z poszanowaniem lub tyrania praw geopolityki.

Natomiast sama idea moze byc korzystna. Przykladowo w Polsce jesli kszatriom odpowiada troche grupa spoleczno-zawodowa - policjanci, to pada wowczas pytanie, jak powinny wygladac ich uwarunkowania psychofizyczne dla pelnienia danekj sluzby. Czy beda to zasady moralne skodyfikowane obszarowe w formie np. prawa ruchu drogowego (aby nie zabic pieszego nalezy poruszac sie 50km w obszarze zabudowanym) i o to dba policjant - kszatria czy tez zysk - nie chodzi o porzadek, ale nabijanie maksymalnej ilosci mandatow. I tego typu aspekty oraz towarzyszace zjawiska mozna dostrzec w przestrzeni publicznej i ich skutki - jesli Ministerstwo Finansow ze wzgledu na dziure budzetowa naklada na Policje obowiazek osiagniecia pewnej sumy kwoty z mandatow, Policja musi je realizowac. Cel - przestrzeganie prawa nie ma juz priorytetu. Rodzi to brak zaufania szeregowych funkcjonariuszy do przelozonych, ludzie obywatele traca zaufanie do Policji i panstwa i tak dalej.

Z kolei praktycznym doswiadczeniem jest, ze jednostkami organizacyjnymi nastawionymi na zysk lepiej kieruja osoby z odpowiednimi tendencjami psychofizycznymi. Gdzie jest miejsce na biznes tam jest miejsce na biznes. Natomiast na jakims etapie zysk nie moze byc priorytetem. Przyklad to GMO. Aby maksymalizowac zyski z upraw dokonuje sie modyfikacji genetycznej, ale ze organizmy i DNA jest tak zlozone, to tego typu ingerencja powoduje, ze pozywienie staje sie szkodliwe. Pogon za zyskiem - gra o sumie zerowej - jak zarobi nasza korporacja a nie inna zamienia sie w gre o sumie ujemnej - ci co jedza traca zdrowie. Przestaja byc klientem.

Jesli chodzi o magiczne slowo asrama z kolei, jako koncepcja, jest takze interesujaca. Mamy etap zycia studenckiego (brahmacaria), rodzinnego (grihasta), odosobnionego, emeryta (vanaprastha) i sannyasy (wyrzeczonego). Ten podzial jest podporzadkowany duchowej realizacji, wiec rozwazanie jego masowego przyjecia jest dyskusyjne o tyle, ze malo kto zainteresowany jest duchowa realizacja. Ciekawostka jest takze, ze zawiera podetapy w przeciwienstwie do glupawego jego postrzegania, jako etapy konczace sie gwaltownie i powodujace u czlowieka maksymalne napiecia psychiczne.

Koncepcja ta uwzglednia naturalny dynamizm ludzkiego zycia, gdzie mlody czlowiek zmuszony do opanowania instrukcji obslugi swojego zycia, ciala i otoczenia musi sie uczyc a jednoczesnie jest uwarunkowany swoim cialem i umyslem - np. hormonami czy rozwijaniem sie platow czolowych nawet do 24 roku zycia. Tradycyjnie w systemie varnasmara dharma np. mlody vajsia powinien byc szkolony przez ojca do przejecia biznesu. Obecnie mamy korporacje. Ojciec nie ma czego nauczyc.

Niemniej z czysto doczesnego punktu widzenia taka koncepcja jest interesujaca. Temat bedacy przedmiotem najwiekszego zainteresowania - zycie seksualne. Jesli zycie studenckie bedzie wiodl rozwiazle, mozliwosc zawarcia stabilnego i szczesliwego zwiazku malzenskiego bedzie mniejsza lub niemozliwa. Okres odosobnienia - vanaprastha - przypada na okres naturalnego wygasamia atrakcji zmyslowych. A nie kazdy zostanie sanjasinem - to w zachodniej kulturze lub krajach o zimnym klimacie jest absurdem jak rowniez z powodu duzej przestepczosci. Przyjecie zle ubranego wedrowca na 30 minut dojenia krowy gdzie zadko kto doi krowe jest problematyczne.

Ale z kolei idea rozdzielenia funkcji spoleczno-religijnej jak kaplanstwo od etapu zycia - sanjasy moze stanowic doskonale odniesienie do takich kwestii jak malzenstwa ksiezy. Iluzja jest, ze dojrzaly seksualnie mezczyzna moze pelnic posluge duchowa majac czesty kontakt z kobietami albo w hierarchii religijnej. Praktyka pokazuje, ze usluguja mu w szerokim zakresie gosposie a jak nie to sa naruszenia.

I tak dalej i tak dalej.

Co ciekawe,na koniec, pada pytanie czy nalezy pokornie nie uczyc sie, nie badac swiata i czekac na wszystkie informacje i tylko te jakie padna od starszych zboru itp? Odrzucac wiedze empiryczna?

Wg Bhagavad Gity nie za bardzo. Wskazowka jest, aby dobrze znac obie natury. I transcendentalna, i zjawiskowa. W konflikcie z tym stoi stwierdzenie czym jest wiedza a czym jest niewiedza - uwazana za wiedze powstala tylko i wylacznie przez kontakt umyslu i zmyslow z materialna natura. Moje rozumienie jest takie, ze wiedza spojna rozumiejaca obie natury i ich wspolne pochodzenia wraz z ich wlasnosciami jest wiedza. Niewiedza jest odlaczona, odseparowana wiedza czysto materialna.
Please translate. Maybe Google Translate and corrections.

To summarize: The system is interesting, beneficial and educational. Its unadapted implementation is a utopia in today's realities.


IanKoviak Wrote:
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> I think approaching a guru and asking questions in the totalitarian way of humility and surrender is not applicable in todays society. There is WAY too many cheaters and confusing instructions being given by these teachers and they should be held accountable to give honest and clear answers and be ready to be challenged. We are not simple minded villagers and uneducated masses from some prehistoric society. The average child questions God and the legitimacy of many religious schools. People deserve to approach spiritual matters with as much comprehensiveness as they apply to closing political leaders, buying insurance or seeking medical advice. We are after all living in times where spiritual traditions take advantage of many of the comforts and advances of contemporary life: The internet, advances in science, psychology and better grasp of historical events. It should not be a naive quest to find a spiritual path/teacher based on some abstract notion of faith and smaskara and sukriti. These ideas mean nothing in contemporary society. They are distractions from the matter at hand for the intelligent spiritual seeker.

Pamietaj, ze ty i ja jestemy ofiarami specyficznego traktowania w grupie religijnej - sandze i przypisujemy ten model calej religii czy systemowi. Zgodnie z cytowanym przeze mnie podejsciam - charakterem stosunku-relacji Guru do ucznia to uczucie - affection. Manifestujace sie w dwojaki sposob - lalana i tadana. Uczucie i dyscyplinowanie. Jedno towarzyszy drugiemu.

A nie twarde, pogardliwe, utylitarne czy szydercze traktowanie przez posrednikow-liderow, nie bedacych guru, ktoremu nie towarzyszy przekaz wiedzy. A zadawanie pytan to podstawa. Potem sluzba z oddaniem. Wymiana.

Zgodnie z naukami zycie duchowe nalezy prowadzic w zyczliwym towarzystwie.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2019 05:04AM by DaWatcher.