Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Date: October 14, 2019 03:05AM
IanKoviak, you felt anger. I also felt angry. I began to wonder why at some points I feel angry. What's wrong with me is that I follow the process or rather try to follow and feel anger.
For today, I can analytically indicate the following:
- Naimittika dharma modified by a person struggling with the effects of LSD can cause students side effects as if they triggered drug addiction to some extent
In traditional Vishnuism it is understood that ultimately naimittika dharma must be rejected because it has side effects.
- The party mind is a locked mind. He sees no objective truth but what is beneficial to the party. Pressure in favor of the party means bending reality.
- One of the former members of SIF Poland shared information that Chris Butler was being treated psychiatrically but did not show evidence of this. Other member of SIF Poland recognized the potential physical and psychological symptoms of the use of 1st generation neuroleptics. The question arises whether these are facts and whether these neuroleptics with devastating side effects have not been dropped.
- In the mood, action, narrative of SIF Poland, expansionism and utilitarianism could be seen - there were situations where initiates were to be sent abroad
- an initiated woman-student with serious emotional problems. It has been verbalized that "SIF Poland explode" is expected. It has been expressed many times dissatisfaction that "there are no new people." Recruitment / expansion, not education.
- Americanisms were also noticed, interfering with the Polish mentality
- Affection and chastizement based method of helping the student by the guru has been transformed into "god cop / bad cop" tactics. One of the members of SIF Poland, reminded that one of the guru representatives coming from the USA ordered the leaders of SIF Poland to organize teaching in centers so that one person corrects people and the other kindly educates. Of course, this will not replace the self-realized guru who bestows the student's affection and corrects it through chastizement. So the potentially traditional approach of Vishnuism has turned into a psychological manipulation / tactics technique.
> Anything can be justified by soaking it in the vat
> of religious fanaticism. The Gita speaks of
> assorted systems of yoga, karma being one of them.
> Butler can spew compete ignorance as can swami
> bhaktivedanta and others and butter it over or
> take shelter behind their mask of Bhakti and
> chanting. This is cowardice of the worst kind.
> They never have to answer fro what they say or do
> because it is all done out of so-called devotion
> for their god/guru.
According to traditional vishnuism, the student should even challenge the Guru with questions, of course in good faith and in accordance with etiquette. Substantive and not arrogant. In critical sutations, he may give up the guru if he manifests symptoms of fall.
According to Bhagavad Gita, 4.34:
Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.
First approach, then inquire, then serve. No question of guru being unattainable or not aswering questions if asked properly.
> If they really believed in the unequivocal power
> of the holy name they would simply chant it and
> that is all. Instead, they make businesses, play
> politics, pretend to do karma yoga and other
> welfare programs and so forth. If the holy name is
> os powerful why the need to do all of this "extra"
That is a good question. Charity is good. It gives confidence in a certain sanga, because generally recruiting religious organizations often cause aversion.
Also compassion for living beings can be expressed on different levels: spiritual, mental and physical.
> The way that they speak of the holy name is as if
> it is a magic thing. I'm sorry, but if I had a
> spell that I can speak that would fulfill all
> desires and manifest all goodness fro me, I would
> abandon all else in faith and take shelter of that
> spell. But the fact is nothing like this exists.
> And pretending to be giving people something
> special while asking for their money, free work,
> service etc is disingenuous and hypocritical. If
> the holy name is all we need then certainly Butler
> does not need his followers to wash his underwear
> or cook for him. One man—with a wife and kids—is
> being served hand and foot because his followers
> believe that he is their great connection to god.
What gives Holy Name is a question of individual experience. Nonetheless, according to Bhagavad Gita again, to fullfill needs of material body one has to
work. So question arises how much teachings of Bhagavad Gita were followed. I was personally forced to ask myself that question.
> They can commit all sorts of financial fraud,
> abuses, lie, cheat, etc and all is good because
> gurudev said so and the "holy names" are on our
The foundation of yoga is "yama" - universal morality.
> What is the difference between this and any
> other cult or religion? Butler can speak complete
> nonsense about nearly every conceivable topic, use
> vulgar language and vile descriptions of
> minorities, his disciples, and anything that he
> disagrees with—while his disciples cheerfully
> listen—maybe even give a chuckle—and they are all
> somehow protected and not allowed to be questioned
> or doubted or even challenged about it all. Those
> who do are blasphemers, offenders, demons and
Yes, the negative attitude and message has personally been the subject of doubt and confusion for me.
> I recall for years Butler specifically asked that
> his disciples do not chant the mahamantra in
> public. It was all gopal govinda Rama and so
> forth. Even for chanting on beads for new comers.
Here, as a meaningful and objective explanation, the purpose can be given - to distinguish from ISKCON, especially from ISCKON in the west, where a lot of abuse (arms trade, murders) occurred. This has some justification.
> Butler sat and accepted praise and worship for years and
> continues to do so from the Gabbards and his
> legion of followers while spewing misinformation,
> hatred, and mind garbage of the worst kind.
The Gabbard role is still a mystery and subject of analysis.
> He has no business in politics or business.
It was confusing and controversiall, especially A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami had no faith in politics and moreover, expressed view, that when people change, they change the politicians they choose.
Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2019 03:13AM by DaWatcher.