This is what you support if you get recruited at a yoga shack
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: September 14, 2014 11:19PM
This 2005 post by 'natural mystic' is worth looking at.
By his severity, Prab created a climate that fostered hypocrisy among
the "Brahmins".
NM states that Prab made only a few deviations from the tradition he
inherited but these few deviations were very important ones.
And bequeathed a legacy of trouble.
(Quote)
[forum.culteducation.com] Pagee 5 of this thread
"Most of what Bhaktivedanta presented is authentic.
"If we take the totality of his writings and lectures, IMO, the deviations from the original are very few in number, but very substantial in their effect on those who accept everything he says as gospel and without fault.
"His deviations are the no-sex rule, the diminishing of women's potential, the harping on women taking a back seat to men in all things, considering ganja use and intoxication in general as "sinful", the demeaning of people who cannot follow his strict rules aka "The four regulative principles" which are:
No sex except for conception
No intoxicant of any kind
No gambling
No animal eating
and his insistence that everyone must follow the austere sadhana (spiritual practices) regiment he made mandatory i.e rising by 4:30 a.m. to go to Kirtan, and then continuous chanting, classes, Kirtan until around 8 a.m. or so.
'If you didn't do that every single morning then you were considered some kind of weakling, insincere, and unworthy of living in the ashrama. People would get angry at you, disrespectful if you didn't show up every morning by 4:30. Interestingly when his disciples took over ISKCON the leaders more often then not, did not go to any of the early morning sadhana, or they may show up at 7:30 a.m. or later. People would grumble about the leadership not having to follow the strict routine everyone else was forced to go to. But only the naive would complain if they valued remaining in the ashramas or in the leader's good graces. The ashramas were and are very authoritarian. The leadership is an elite and can pretty much do as they please. They won't rat each other out, but they have to be cautious with those not in the leadrship clique, they themsevlves often lead double lives.
"They have to hide their "enjoying" e.g sexual relations, intoxicants, media entertainment, etc, from the rank and file because the rank and file would be told to leave if they did those things.
"So the rank and file are generally much more prudish and victorian then the leaders. This is because most of the rank and file are newer members, whereas the leadership is generally comprised of long time members. As with any religion it is the recent converts who are generally the most fanatic. With a religion like ISKCON and it's mass of anti-sensual, anti-enjoying, anti-sexual rules, the fact is that after a certain amount of time most members get "burned out" [sic] and leave. Usually they then feel a sense of relief that they don't have to follow such a strict regimented self-denial based lifestyle.
"BUT...those who are in leadership positions have a good gig going. They essentially don't have to do any kind of real work, they may give a lecture here and there, they don't have to follow the early morning sadhana, they have money coming in from donations and business investments, they are given free housing and cars and travel expenses, they get very high quality free food, free lodging in nice homes and apartments the world over etc. So they don't want to leave, yet they also are generally all "burnt out" on following strictly the ISKCON rules, as much as everyone else who leaves after a few years. So they live secret double lives. They fear exposure for not following the rules and regulations of the society. The leaders all know more or less what is going on and often will join each other in their pleasure seeking lifestyles outside of the vision of ISKCON.
"It's a Catch-22 for them. They have to demand enforcement of all of the rules and regulations put forth by Bhaktivedanta, or else the rank and file will see them as deviants from the founder. Yet they do not want to follow them, and they don't want to leave. So they have to be very careful in their politics amongst themselves. They don't want to upset the apple cart, they got a good thing going, they don't want enemies made between themselves because that can cause vengeance and an "outing" of a leader as a sensualist. Which has happened quite a few times in the last few years. In fact that is pretty much why almost all the leaders who left ISKCON left. They were outed by someone seeking vengeance for some reason or another.
"I am sure they would love to change the rules of ISKCON, but they fear that they would lose their credibility if they changed Bhaktivedanta's strict policies and victorian teachings. Pity really.
"Bhaktivedanta would constantly preach about the necessity of what came to be known in ISKCON as "The 4 regs" (see above). He would commonly say in lectures and in his writings that "human life means following these 4 regulative principles, otherwise you are an animal, 10th class man." But also Bhaktivedanta would contradict himself on his puritanical emphasis.
"One example was when he first started ISKCON it was unheard of in India for women to live in an ashrama communal living situtation with men. The ashrama culture in India was either male and in rare instances there were female ashramas as well. Bhaktivedanta came under heavy criticism from within his own religious mentors and group because of allowing women into the communal ashrama situation. Also before he gave the management over to his disciples the women were pretty much on an equal footing with the men in the ashramas. They would lead kirtans (groups singing and dancing), they would give classes, and they were not treated as they would come to be.
"I've read many of the female apologists for Bhaktivedanta state that it wasn't Bhaktivedanta who advocated that women be treated in a less then egalitarian fashion, they claim it was his immature disciples who took leadership positions who were responsible for changing the male-female dynamic in ISKCON.
"I have to disagree with that assessment.
"The disciples got their ideas from Bhaktivedanta's teachings. While in his personal dealings and management of his society he was not authoritarian with women, in his writings and lectures he was. Bhaktivedanta's writings and lectures are what the sexists in ISKCON use to validate their sexism. Although Bhaktivedanta also had a sense of humor about women in general, many of his statements were whimsical in intent to some degree, but that was lost on most of his followers, they would take him dead serious. For instance he is famous for saying "women like a man who is expert at rape". He didn't mean it in the modern usage most people think of when they hear the word rape. He meant that women like a man who is sexually aggressive, they like to be seduced. He had both an extreme puritianical side as well as a naughty humorous side when he spoke about male female sexua relationships. But the disciples were too unsophisticated to get his humor often times and they took every word he said as dead serious, gospel on the mount kind of stuff.
(Unquote)
By his severity, Prab created a climate that fostered hypocrisy among
the "Brahmins".
NM states that Prab made only a few deviations from the tradition he
inherited but these few deviations were very important ones.
And bequeathed a legacy of trouble.
(Quote)
[forum.culteducation.com] Pagee 5 of this thread
"Most of what Bhaktivedanta presented is authentic.
"If we take the totality of his writings and lectures, IMO, the deviations from the original are very few in number, but very substantial in their effect on those who accept everything he says as gospel and without fault.
"His deviations are the no-sex rule, the diminishing of women's potential, the harping on women taking a back seat to men in all things, considering ganja use and intoxication in general as "sinful", the demeaning of people who cannot follow his strict rules aka "The four regulative principles" which are:
No sex except for conception
No intoxicant of any kind
No gambling
No animal eating
and his insistence that everyone must follow the austere sadhana (spiritual practices) regiment he made mandatory i.e rising by 4:30 a.m. to go to Kirtan, and then continuous chanting, classes, Kirtan until around 8 a.m. or so.
'If you didn't do that every single morning then you were considered some kind of weakling, insincere, and unworthy of living in the ashrama. People would get angry at you, disrespectful if you didn't show up every morning by 4:30. Interestingly when his disciples took over ISKCON the leaders more often then not, did not go to any of the early morning sadhana, or they may show up at 7:30 a.m. or later. People would grumble about the leadership not having to follow the strict routine everyone else was forced to go to. But only the naive would complain if they valued remaining in the ashramas or in the leader's good graces. The ashramas were and are very authoritarian. The leadership is an elite and can pretty much do as they please. They won't rat each other out, but they have to be cautious with those not in the leadrship clique, they themsevlves often lead double lives.
"They have to hide their "enjoying" e.g sexual relations, intoxicants, media entertainment, etc, from the rank and file because the rank and file would be told to leave if they did those things.
"So the rank and file are generally much more prudish and victorian then the leaders. This is because most of the rank and file are newer members, whereas the leadership is generally comprised of long time members. As with any religion it is the recent converts who are generally the most fanatic. With a religion like ISKCON and it's mass of anti-sensual, anti-enjoying, anti-sexual rules, the fact is that after a certain amount of time most members get "burned out" [sic] and leave. Usually they then feel a sense of relief that they don't have to follow such a strict regimented self-denial based lifestyle.
"BUT...those who are in leadership positions have a good gig going. They essentially don't have to do any kind of real work, they may give a lecture here and there, they don't have to follow the early morning sadhana, they have money coming in from donations and business investments, they are given free housing and cars and travel expenses, they get very high quality free food, free lodging in nice homes and apartments the world over etc. So they don't want to leave, yet they also are generally all "burnt out" on following strictly the ISKCON rules, as much as everyone else who leaves after a few years. So they live secret double lives. They fear exposure for not following the rules and regulations of the society. The leaders all know more or less what is going on and often will join each other in their pleasure seeking lifestyles outside of the vision of ISKCON.
"It's a Catch-22 for them. They have to demand enforcement of all of the rules and regulations put forth by Bhaktivedanta, or else the rank and file will see them as deviants from the founder. Yet they do not want to follow them, and they don't want to leave. So they have to be very careful in their politics amongst themselves. They don't want to upset the apple cart, they got a good thing going, they don't want enemies made between themselves because that can cause vengeance and an "outing" of a leader as a sensualist. Which has happened quite a few times in the last few years. In fact that is pretty much why almost all the leaders who left ISKCON left. They were outed by someone seeking vengeance for some reason or another.
"I am sure they would love to change the rules of ISKCON, but they fear that they would lose their credibility if they changed Bhaktivedanta's strict policies and victorian teachings. Pity really.
"Bhaktivedanta would constantly preach about the necessity of what came to be known in ISKCON as "The 4 regs" (see above). He would commonly say in lectures and in his writings that "human life means following these 4 regulative principles, otherwise you are an animal, 10th class man." But also Bhaktivedanta would contradict himself on his puritanical emphasis.
"One example was when he first started ISKCON it was unheard of in India for women to live in an ashrama communal living situtation with men. The ashrama culture in India was either male and in rare instances there were female ashramas as well. Bhaktivedanta came under heavy criticism from within his own religious mentors and group because of allowing women into the communal ashrama situation. Also before he gave the management over to his disciples the women were pretty much on an equal footing with the men in the ashramas. They would lead kirtans (groups singing and dancing), they would give classes, and they were not treated as they would come to be.
"I've read many of the female apologists for Bhaktivedanta state that it wasn't Bhaktivedanta who advocated that women be treated in a less then egalitarian fashion, they claim it was his immature disciples who took leadership positions who were responsible for changing the male-female dynamic in ISKCON.
"I have to disagree with that assessment.
"The disciples got their ideas from Bhaktivedanta's teachings. While in his personal dealings and management of his society he was not authoritarian with women, in his writings and lectures he was. Bhaktivedanta's writings and lectures are what the sexists in ISKCON use to validate their sexism. Although Bhaktivedanta also had a sense of humor about women in general, many of his statements were whimsical in intent to some degree, but that was lost on most of his followers, they would take him dead serious. For instance he is famous for saying "women like a man who is expert at rape". He didn't mean it in the modern usage most people think of when they hear the word rape. He meant that women like a man who is sexually aggressive, they like to be seduced. He had both an extreme puritianical side as well as a naughty humorous side when he spoke about male female sexua relationships. But the disciples were too unsophisticated to get his humor often times and they took every word he said as dead serious, gospel on the mount kind of stuff.
(Unquote)
Recruiters dont know the truth and cannot tell you full truth.
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: September 14, 2014 11:32PM
"The fact I moved in with a devotee was all that let me go to kritans that were not the veiled offerrings of meditation classes at the centres. "
Now, we are back to SIF.
A person describes how he was able to access material not allowed to low rankers or outsiders.
This person took initiative to ask for admission to an SIF group.
It is interesting how cautious the response was.
Page 8
[forum.culteducation.com]
(Quote)Hare Krishna
Posted by: cultreporter ()
Date: October 28, 2006 04:43PM
Jessica - it is nice to see that you almost have the courage of your convictions - I think you must be new to SOI.
Why don't you come down off your cloud from on high where you preach to us lowly demons and give something of substance? Refute what is being said. Do you want to show me to Krishna? Do you follow lord Caitanya's mission of only the most fallen will attain to Krishna?
Am I fallen enough for you?
I would gladly talk to you and I will take down and stop writing any information that you or anyone else can convince me is wrong. I will come and meet you in Sydney any time or day that suits you and you can even sell me some books and lectures if you like. So you want to take up this opportunity at devotional service?
Can you be 'like soldiers' as Siddha says we need to be for Krishna or is being in the forum just your little way to think you are doing something faithful?
On the thread Science of Identity all the info you like Jessica has weighed in to criticise me for writing about Science of Identity. She comes in here to preach the voice of reason (in her opinion) to not say bad things about Siddha.
According to Siddha's teachings it is the kindest thing that you can do for anyone to show them Krishna. It was the message of Bhaktivedanta Swami to distribute books so that all may have the knowledge of KC.
Let us talk about Siddha's followers in Sydney and why it is clear that they fit the definition of a destructive cult seeking to manipulate and control followers.
Before I went to the Gold Coast I lived less than 45 minutes away from the devotees in Sydney.
Could I go to them to learn about Krishna? The first thing that I was asked when I made contact with the disciple Hari das in Glebe in Sydney was "Who gave you this number?" Apparently the three people that had were not good enough or if he checked with them they did not know me well enough to recommend me.
Instead of being able to study Siddha's teachings in Sydney I had to move across the country to the Gold Coast. The fact I moved in with a devotee was all that let me go to kritans that were not the veiled offerrings of meditation classes at the centres. A stop was very soon put to me being allowed to fo to 'the farm' though.
The lectures that I heard were heard through my 'friend' - I was not allowed to buy lectures from Trancendental Sound because the disciple who runs it Jagganatha dasi did not know me. The devotee that I lived with has done a lot of service making websites and was asked to make one for TS and make it password protected so that just not anyone could gain access to buying the letures.
When I asked him why this was he was very clear on explaining not just anyone can be allowed to have access to lectures and if the 'fags' got hold of them they would use them to expose Siddha as anti gay and this was not an image they wanted to be associated with SOI or the Australian School of Meditation.
Because I was associated with a long term devotee he took me to chants that I was not actually allowed to go to and I was allowed the liberty of going to classes that only those deemed serious were welcome to attend.
Since I have started writing about SOI the Australian School of Meditation has taken down their website. They have begged me to stop what I am doing, and tried to manipulate and threaten me out of it.
I begged the disciples there to tell me that I was the one who was wrong, to see some reason to keep believing in what I had believed in so strongly that I gladly gave up everything that I had to follow Siddha's teachings. I endured the control that was being exerted over my life from the day I got there thinking these people know better than me.
I dearly wanted to preach but I was not allowed.
I was told not to wear my japa beads in public or chant my rounds on the long train trips between Brisbane and where I was living.
I was chastised for walking to and from kirtan because I believed that Narasingha would not let anything bad happen to me.
I didn't lose my faith in Krishna but my faith in Siddha was slowly dragged out of me.
Again I begged and pleaded with the people I knew there to help me - their response? NOTHING.
The devotees in Sydney where I was living on the streets for months because the disciples on the Gold Coast ordered that I be kicked out of my home because I was living with a man that was not allowed to marry me even if he wanted to - NOTHING
I pleaded for Siddha's teachings and nothing came none of this kindness and faithfulness that his followers want to present now in response to what I am doing which is simply telling the truth about what they are like. It is an excuse now to say what I am doing is a reason to ignore me or condemn me, but only the most fallen remember?
If Siddha is a pure devotee that can guide people to Krishna then why doesn't he and his followers do it?
Why all the hiding and secrecy?
If he sees the end of the world via bird flu and he is so kind and infinitely compassionate then why is he not warning all the poor people of the world so that they might be saved rather than just high secret e-mails to his disciples?
Did you get a bird flu warning Jessica??
Are you defending a spiritual master that has already decided that you are not worthy to be saved?
Have you ever seen Siddha? Written to him? Received any personal guidance from him? Are you just accepting the guidance of his disciples who he says many times over are not perfect?
I have heard it all Siddha says this I heard him so this is what you should do?
Should I trust my spiritual life to a game of chinese whisphers?
When I was on the Gold Coast one day I found an injured bird. I picked it up and took it home and thanked Krishna for the reminder that my life was not so bad - I could be this poor creature right?
I made prashadam for the bird and put on a chanting CD because I had been taught that hearing the chanting of a pure devotee could liberate an animal soul and allow them to attain to human in their next life. I chanted to my little friend and whisphered to him the names of Krishna as I was sure that he lay dying with nothing I could do.
The devotee I lived with was adamant Siddha had given teachings that were I should let the bird die, that I should not have interferred with it and that now I should tip it out of it's box onto the grass and leave it's fate up to Krishna. I didn't.
We fought and he condemned my faith.
The disciple I spoke to about this because it hurt me so badly said he was wrong because she had heard Siddha say... and condemned his faith. I asked a third disciple and he said they were both somewhat correct.
Not only is it a contradiction to hide Krishna as much as possible - imagine Lord Caitanya instead of dancing in the street whisphering to a few of His chosen psst I know the Absolute Truth, come into this cave and we will roll a rock against the door so that no one can over hear - but when you manage to get into Siddhas cave there are even more contradictions.
In KC one is instructed not to follow blindly, to depend on Krishna in your heart, the scripture and the spiritual master. Two out of three ain't bad and if the third ever decides to come out of hiding than I am there, but I am certainly not holding my breath.
(Unquote)
Now, we are back to SIF.
A person describes how he was able to access material not allowed to low rankers or outsiders.
This person took initiative to ask for admission to an SIF group.
It is interesting how cautious the response was.
Page 8
[forum.culteducation.com]
(Quote)Hare Krishna
Posted by: cultreporter ()
Date: October 28, 2006 04:43PM
Jessica - it is nice to see that you almost have the courage of your convictions - I think you must be new to SOI.
Why don't you come down off your cloud from on high where you preach to us lowly demons and give something of substance? Refute what is being said. Do you want to show me to Krishna? Do you follow lord Caitanya's mission of only the most fallen will attain to Krishna?
Am I fallen enough for you?
I would gladly talk to you and I will take down and stop writing any information that you or anyone else can convince me is wrong. I will come and meet you in Sydney any time or day that suits you and you can even sell me some books and lectures if you like. So you want to take up this opportunity at devotional service?
Can you be 'like soldiers' as Siddha says we need to be for Krishna or is being in the forum just your little way to think you are doing something faithful?
On the thread Science of Identity all the info you like Jessica has weighed in to criticise me for writing about Science of Identity. She comes in here to preach the voice of reason (in her opinion) to not say bad things about Siddha.
According to Siddha's teachings it is the kindest thing that you can do for anyone to show them Krishna. It was the message of Bhaktivedanta Swami to distribute books so that all may have the knowledge of KC.
Let us talk about Siddha's followers in Sydney and why it is clear that they fit the definition of a destructive cult seeking to manipulate and control followers.
Before I went to the Gold Coast I lived less than 45 minutes away from the devotees in Sydney.
Could I go to them to learn about Krishna? The first thing that I was asked when I made contact with the disciple Hari das in Glebe in Sydney was "Who gave you this number?" Apparently the three people that had were not good enough or if he checked with them they did not know me well enough to recommend me.
Instead of being able to study Siddha's teachings in Sydney I had to move across the country to the Gold Coast. The fact I moved in with a devotee was all that let me go to kritans that were not the veiled offerrings of meditation classes at the centres. A stop was very soon put to me being allowed to fo to 'the farm' though.
The lectures that I heard were heard through my 'friend' - I was not allowed to buy lectures from Trancendental Sound because the disciple who runs it Jagganatha dasi did not know me. The devotee that I lived with has done a lot of service making websites and was asked to make one for TS and make it password protected so that just not anyone could gain access to buying the letures.
When I asked him why this was he was very clear on explaining not just anyone can be allowed to have access to lectures and if the 'fags' got hold of them they would use them to expose Siddha as anti gay and this was not an image they wanted to be associated with SOI or the Australian School of Meditation.
Because I was associated with a long term devotee he took me to chants that I was not actually allowed to go to and I was allowed the liberty of going to classes that only those deemed serious were welcome to attend.
Since I have started writing about SOI the Australian School of Meditation has taken down their website. They have begged me to stop what I am doing, and tried to manipulate and threaten me out of it.
I begged the disciples there to tell me that I was the one who was wrong, to see some reason to keep believing in what I had believed in so strongly that I gladly gave up everything that I had to follow Siddha's teachings. I endured the control that was being exerted over my life from the day I got there thinking these people know better than me.
I dearly wanted to preach but I was not allowed.
I was told not to wear my japa beads in public or chant my rounds on the long train trips between Brisbane and where I was living.
I was chastised for walking to and from kirtan because I believed that Narasingha would not let anything bad happen to me.
I didn't lose my faith in Krishna but my faith in Siddha was slowly dragged out of me.
Again I begged and pleaded with the people I knew there to help me - their response? NOTHING.
The devotees in Sydney where I was living on the streets for months because the disciples on the Gold Coast ordered that I be kicked out of my home because I was living with a man that was not allowed to marry me even if he wanted to - NOTHING
I pleaded for Siddha's teachings and nothing came none of this kindness and faithfulness that his followers want to present now in response to what I am doing which is simply telling the truth about what they are like. It is an excuse now to say what I am doing is a reason to ignore me or condemn me, but only the most fallen remember?
If Siddha is a pure devotee that can guide people to Krishna then why doesn't he and his followers do it?
Why all the hiding and secrecy?
If he sees the end of the world via bird flu and he is so kind and infinitely compassionate then why is he not warning all the poor people of the world so that they might be saved rather than just high secret e-mails to his disciples?
Did you get a bird flu warning Jessica??
Are you defending a spiritual master that has already decided that you are not worthy to be saved?
Have you ever seen Siddha? Written to him? Received any personal guidance from him? Are you just accepting the guidance of his disciples who he says many times over are not perfect?
I have heard it all Siddha says this I heard him so this is what you should do?
Should I trust my spiritual life to a game of chinese whisphers?
When I was on the Gold Coast one day I found an injured bird. I picked it up and took it home and thanked Krishna for the reminder that my life was not so bad - I could be this poor creature right?
I made prashadam for the bird and put on a chanting CD because I had been taught that hearing the chanting of a pure devotee could liberate an animal soul and allow them to attain to human in their next life. I chanted to my little friend and whisphered to him the names of Krishna as I was sure that he lay dying with nothing I could do.
The devotee I lived with was adamant Siddha had given teachings that were I should let the bird die, that I should not have interferred with it and that now I should tip it out of it's box onto the grass and leave it's fate up to Krishna. I didn't.
We fought and he condemned my faith.
The disciple I spoke to about this because it hurt me so badly said he was wrong because she had heard Siddha say... and condemned his faith. I asked a third disciple and he said they were both somewhat correct.
Not only is it a contradiction to hide Krishna as much as possible - imagine Lord Caitanya instead of dancing in the street whisphering to a few of His chosen psst I know the Absolute Truth, come into this cave and we will roll a rock against the door so that no one can over hear - but when you manage to get into Siddhas cave there are even more contradictions.
In KC one is instructed not to follow blindly, to depend on Krishna in your heart, the scripture and the spiritual master. Two out of three ain't bad and if the third ever decides to come out of hiding than I am there, but I am certainly not holding my breath.
(Unquote)
A vignette of Butler/Siddha in Australia -angered at heckling
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: September 14, 2014 11:36PM
Another vignette of BUtler in Australia in the early days.
[forum.culteducation.com] Page 9
(Quote)Hare Krishna
Posted by: cultreporter ()
Date: October 29, 2006 04:42AM
Zelig - thanks for these links! I have actually just been revising the business info on the site this morning. I knew some devotees on the Gold Coast were Noni distributors, although there are a few Noni companies around and I was uncertain of the precise name of the one linked to SOI - I think it is Healing Noni :?: For sure I will add the facts available.
I do consider myself to be very lucky because only two years of my life went into this, I feel bad for even being upset by it when I hear from people that were there for much longer and who were born into it. I have also met people who were involved on the level of meditation classes for months and some of them are obviously shatterred by the experience.
Yes indeed - it is better to have loved and lost than to live with the psycho for the rest of your life :lol:
No I never met Siddha, he has not been in Australia since around 1994. I have a very close friend who is an ex-follower who was there then. Pretty much all she remembers of him is telling everyone that they were not fit to call themselves his followers and that everyone there was the worst devotees he had ever seen, lazy, good for nothing etc. It broke her heart.
In Brisbane Siddha did a talk and was heckled by someone in the audience. Did he have the humility and conviction to continue - the compassion to try even harder to reach this fallen soul? Of course not - he stormed off the stage and demanded that one of his disciples finish the talk instead vowing that he would never return to Brisbane again and declaring it the 'armpit of the world'.(Unquote)
[forum.culteducation.com] Page 9
(Quote)Hare Krishna
Posted by: cultreporter ()
Date: October 29, 2006 04:42AM
Zelig - thanks for these links! I have actually just been revising the business info on the site this morning. I knew some devotees on the Gold Coast were Noni distributors, although there are a few Noni companies around and I was uncertain of the precise name of the one linked to SOI - I think it is Healing Noni :?: For sure I will add the facts available.
I do consider myself to be very lucky because only two years of my life went into this, I feel bad for even being upset by it when I hear from people that were there for much longer and who were born into it. I have also met people who were involved on the level of meditation classes for months and some of them are obviously shatterred by the experience.
Yes indeed - it is better to have loved and lost than to live with the psycho for the rest of your life :lol:
No I never met Siddha, he has not been in Australia since around 1994. I have a very close friend who is an ex-follower who was there then. Pretty much all she remembers of him is telling everyone that they were not fit to call themselves his followers and that everyone there was the worst devotees he had ever seen, lazy, good for nothing etc. It broke her heart.
In Brisbane Siddha did a talk and was heckled by someone in the audience. Did he have the humility and conviction to continue - the compassion to try even harder to reach this fallen soul? Of course not - he stormed off the stage and demanded that one of his disciples finish the talk instead vowing that he would never return to Brisbane again and declaring it the 'armpit of the world'.(Unquote)
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: September 15, 2014 04:19PM
Quote
Nailed some great points corboy:
“By the time you wake up to the danger you may be married…All this is years in the future.”
By the time you wake up you have discovered that your husband or wife is having an affair with another devotee…
or that your child was hurt in the boarding school and you were not told…
that your spouse wants a divorce because you are not “serious enough” in your service to Srila Prabhupad…
that SP chastised you for something you did not do…
that you discover that the pure devotee really does not know everything nor does he have the supposed mystical powers you were told…
that your child no longer respects you after going away to the indoctrination "missionary" school because you are not “serious enough”…
that during your divorce or custody battle you can not mention SP’s involvement because you fear “spiritual death”…
that you find yourself kidnapping your own children away from their other parent who is no longer a devotee...
that all your fights with your spouse are over "to be celibate or not", how much money to tithe, or how you never see each other because of working on one of SP's "projects"...
that because you are a woman you can not get remarried after an unhappy marriage because you are too old and gave your youth away in service…
or that you can not marry because you are needed on a "project"...
or that the person you desire is not approved of by the guru...
or that if you do marry the person you desire, you are downgraded to "lustful" in the cult's rankings...
that you can’t bust fellow devotees of unethical and criminal acts because it would implicate guru…
that you have to stop seeing a beloved family member or friend who is shunned for offenses …
that you have just been played all these years…
that the people in charge, the ones SP trusts, are really opportunistic assholes who seem to be free to break the rules…
that the people you thought were so compassionate and full of bhakti joy are really cold and heartless when you suffer a serious illness, tragedy or death in the family...
that you can no longer leave the group because the sacrifice is too high…
that years later you do not have the skills, networks, or friends to make it outside of the cult…
that to leave the group would be to lose your family, friends, and income…
that to leave the group means that you will need to be responsible for yourself again...
that you have discovered the cult's hidden history and how ancient practices were modified, derivative, and reductive - used by a clever narcissist for his own selfish motives...
that all the good and beauty was just a cynical weapon used against your spirit to forward one man’s grandiose delusion of himself…
By the time you wake up to the danger you find yourself doing the same harm to others...
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
VoxVeritasVita Das
()
Date: October 08, 2014 12:50PM
Oh look, her true colors are showing.
Shades of her surfing spiritual so-called, master.
We should all just chime in and drop a dime ...or two.
[www.frontpagemag.com]
[www.aol.com]
Shades of her surfing spiritual so-called, master.
We should all just chime in and drop a dime ...or two.
[www.frontpagemag.com]
[www.aol.com]
Surf Gate
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: October 12, 2014 09:23PM
The only people getting chewed out for Tulsi's "Surf Gate" will be her press secretary Heather Fluit or scheduler Mindy Latini who are likely Butler devotees. This story is just giving Tulsi more national publicity and unfortunately does nothing to expose her connection to Butler. In my opinion.
Is This A Cult?
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: October 13, 2014 07:49PM
Is This A Cult?
Not a fan of Dr Phil, but this clip triggered an exer. There are several similarities between the Butler cult and this one.
In my estimation, the small cult featured in this program is more like early Butler before he grew into his current, world wide group with senior disciples running the empire and recruiting new members through attractive, young couples.
UPDATE: Sadly, at least one former critic who used to post on this forum has returned to the cult. If you grow up in a cult, it's hard to leave family behind . . .
Not a fan of Dr Phil, but this clip triggered an exer. There are several similarities between the Butler cult and this one.
- [*] You are not my mother or father [Butler would say parents are just sperm donors and Krishna and the Spiritual Master are your real fathers.]
[*] This is just an attachment [Butler would say that these attachments are just Maya and unless you can convert them they will be obstacles on your spiritual path].
[*] Your little minds just can not understand [Butler followers also have this superiority complex and feel they are better than their family members and "karmi" friends (those still attached to the material world).]
[*] My life with you is over. [Butler always discouraged contact with non-devotee family members.]
[*] Authoritarian Figure who is above everyone and has all the answers. Usually has mystical and fairy tale features. [Butler controls a vast amount of people and dictates all aspect in their lives. Many myths surround him.]
[*] The average age of joining a cult is 25. [Take a look at all of the Butler recruitment sites such as the Bhakti Shack on Kauai and this is validated. It is interesting that this age is the most vulnerable. These are people who have already broken away from home to build their own lives with a desire to do things better or differently than their parents. Cults monopolize on this to the point of utter disengagement from family.]
[*] Cult uses an ancient spirituality to attract idealistic young men and women. [Butler uses a form of Hinduism, while this cult uses Native American practices. Neither one of them would be accepted by mainstream practitioners of these religions. Both Hiduism and the Lakota religion place a great emphasis on family and not on the breaking up families.]
[*] People would make big decisions in life based on the teachings of the leader without thinking through the consequences. [All exers will concur and acknowledge that these decisions cost them dearly.]
In my estimation, the small cult featured in this program is more like early Butler before he grew into his current, world wide group with senior disciples running the empire and recruiting new members through attractive, young couples.
UPDATE: Sadly, at least one former critic who used to post on this forum has returned to the cult. If you grow up in a cult, it's hard to leave family behind . . .
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: December 02, 2014 07:08PM
When you Google "Chris Butler Cult" another article surfaces from the Hawai'i Free Press exposing a Chris Butler Cult front.
Tulsi Gabbard Office Manager Linked to Butler Cult
by Andrew Walden
Hawaii politics is supposedly all about seniority and connections. But shortly after the June, 2013 news that Tulsi Gabbard parted ways with former Abercrombie staffer Amy Asselbaye and professional congressional staffer Jennifer Goedke, she passed up legions of experienced former Inouye and Akaka staffers to quietly install Anya F. Anthony as her new Office Manager.
Who?
That would be Anya F Anthony, formerly agent of “Sunset Studios,” which Daily KOS identifies as a front for the Chris Butler Cult. According to DCCA business registration records, Sunset Studios was originally incorporated in Australia and registered in Hawaii as a foreign partnership in 2002. According a September, 2012, post on a cult watch website, Anya F Anthony is a “NZ disciple.”
Anya Anthony’s name comes up three times in a February 2012 Daily KOS expose of the links between the Gabbard campaign and the Chris Butler cult. KOS lists Anthony among a select group of donors to cult-linked political candidates over three decades--either Rick Reed’s 1994 campaign or Mike Gabbard’s 2004 campaign and also to Tulsi Gabbard’s 2012 Congressional campaign.
Chris Butler was born in 1948, the third son of Willis Butler, the ILWU’s Red Doctor of Molokai. But the red diaper baby became a Hare Krishna and, after taking LSD, led one of the many 1977 Hare Krishna splinter groups making himself ‘Jagadguru’ of the so-called Science of Identity foundation. They run the Down to Earth ‘natural food’ markets which profit from the anti-GMO hype spread by Rep Tulsi Gabbard. They also have a long history of sponsoring cult members as Hawaii political candidates starting with the 1970s third party effort, “Independents for Godly Government.” Until Tulsi flip-flopped in order to win against Mufi Hannemann in the 2012 campaign, they were known mostly for their opposition to gay marriage.
According to media accounts and cult emails forwarded to Hawai’i Free Press by a former cult member, Tulsi Gabbard’s father, State Senator Mike Gabbard, is “Krishna Katha das“ in the cult and her mother Carol Gabbard is “Devahuti dasi.”
Allegedly cult members give 25% to the Jagadguru and are honored to eat his yummy toenail clippings. He is said to own three oceanfront Lanikai mansions.
Cults are known for their ability to draw in devotees and make them worship the leader. In a recent poll, Tulsi Gabbard’s popularity was tops among Hawaii politicians at 76%.
[By the way, Sunset Studios was around back in 1983 producing Jagad Guru Speaks videos. Most of the videos you see online of Butler were filmed there.
Sunset Studios was known famously as "The Warehouse" where young men and women slaved for no wages and lived in crawl spaces above the graphics department and darkroom. Some lived in cars and ate Down to Earth leftovers and dumpster garbage if they weren't on food stamps or welfare.
They also held devotional gatherings (kirtans) there where Butler was worshipped. Butler also had a private room at the location where he would hold court and complain about the air conditioner. Allegedly, Larry Olsen, a former policeman, was the "enforcer" and manager of the Warehouse. Yeah, this is the same Larry Olsen who once posed as the fake husband of Kathy Hoshijo when she ran for Congress under the Independents for Godly Government banner (see campaign brochures from that time). Former cult members describe him as a pit bull who would extort enormous tithes for displeasing the guru.
Tulsi Gabbard Office Manager Linked to Butler Cult
by Andrew Walden
Hawaii politics is supposedly all about seniority and connections. But shortly after the June, 2013 news that Tulsi Gabbard parted ways with former Abercrombie staffer Amy Asselbaye and professional congressional staffer Jennifer Goedke, she passed up legions of experienced former Inouye and Akaka staffers to quietly install Anya F. Anthony as her new Office Manager.
Who?
That would be Anya F Anthony, formerly agent of “Sunset Studios,” which Daily KOS identifies as a front for the Chris Butler Cult. According to DCCA business registration records, Sunset Studios was originally incorporated in Australia and registered in Hawaii as a foreign partnership in 2002. According a September, 2012, post on a cult watch website, Anya F Anthony is a “NZ disciple.”
Anya Anthony’s name comes up three times in a February 2012 Daily KOS expose of the links between the Gabbard campaign and the Chris Butler cult. KOS lists Anthony among a select group of donors to cult-linked political candidates over three decades--either Rick Reed’s 1994 campaign or Mike Gabbard’s 2004 campaign and also to Tulsi Gabbard’s 2012 Congressional campaign.
Chris Butler was born in 1948, the third son of Willis Butler, the ILWU’s Red Doctor of Molokai. But the red diaper baby became a Hare Krishna and, after taking LSD, led one of the many 1977 Hare Krishna splinter groups making himself ‘Jagadguru’ of the so-called Science of Identity foundation. They run the Down to Earth ‘natural food’ markets which profit from the anti-GMO hype spread by Rep Tulsi Gabbard. They also have a long history of sponsoring cult members as Hawaii political candidates starting with the 1970s third party effort, “Independents for Godly Government.” Until Tulsi flip-flopped in order to win against Mufi Hannemann in the 2012 campaign, they were known mostly for their opposition to gay marriage.
According to media accounts and cult emails forwarded to Hawai’i Free Press by a former cult member, Tulsi Gabbard’s father, State Senator Mike Gabbard, is “Krishna Katha das“ in the cult and her mother Carol Gabbard is “Devahuti dasi.”
Allegedly cult members give 25% to the Jagadguru and are honored to eat his yummy toenail clippings. He is said to own three oceanfront Lanikai mansions.
Cults are known for their ability to draw in devotees and make them worship the leader. In a recent poll, Tulsi Gabbard’s popularity was tops among Hawaii politicians at 76%.
[By the way, Sunset Studios was around back in 1983 producing Jagad Guru Speaks videos. Most of the videos you see online of Butler were filmed there.
Sunset Studios was known famously as "The Warehouse" where young men and women slaved for no wages and lived in crawl spaces above the graphics department and darkroom. Some lived in cars and ate Down to Earth leftovers and dumpster garbage if they weren't on food stamps or welfare.
They also held devotional gatherings (kirtans) there where Butler was worshipped. Butler also had a private room at the location where he would hold court and complain about the air conditioner. Allegedly, Larry Olsen, a former policeman, was the "enforcer" and manager of the Warehouse. Yeah, this is the same Larry Olsen who once posed as the fake husband of Kathy Hoshijo when she ran for Congress under the Independents for Godly Government banner (see campaign brochures from that time). Former cult members describe him as a pit bull who would extort enormous tithes for displeasing the guru.
Sunset Studios
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: December 02, 2014 07:10PM
When you Google "Chris Butler Cult" another article surfaces from the Hawai'i Free Press exposing a Chris Butler Cult front.
Tulsi Gabbard Office Manager Linked to Butler Cult
by Andrew Walden
Hawaii politics is supposedly all about seniority and connections. But shortly after the June, 2013 news that Tulsi Gabbard parted ways with former Abercrombie staffer Amy Asselbaye and professional congressional staffer Jennifer Goedke, she passed up legions of experienced former Inouye and Akaka staffers to quietly install Anya F. Anthony as her new Office Manager.
Who?
That would be Anya F Anthony, formerly agent of “Sunset Studios,” which Daily KOS identifies as a front for the Chris Butler Cult. According to DCCA business registration records, Sunset Studios was originally incorporated in Australia and registered in Hawaii as a foreign partnership in 2002. According a September, 2012, post on a cult watch website, Anya F Anthony is a “NZ disciple.”
Anya Anthony’s name comes up three times in a February 2012 Daily KOS expose of the links between the Gabbard campaign and the Chris Butler cult. KOS lists Anthony among a select group of donors to cult-linked political candidates over three decades--either Rick Reed’s 1994 campaign or Mike Gabbard’s 2004 campaign and also to Tulsi Gabbard’s 2012 Congressional campaign.
Chris Butler was born in 1948, the third son of Willis Butler, the ILWU’s Red Doctor of Molokai. But the red diaper baby became a Hare Krishna and, after taking LSD, led one of the many 1977 Hare Krishna splinter groups making himself ‘Jagadguru’ of the so-called Science of Identity foundation. They run the Down to Earth ‘natural food’ markets which profit from the anti-GMO hype spread by Rep Tulsi Gabbard. They also have a long history of sponsoring cult members as Hawaii political candidates starting with the 1970s third party effort, “Independents for Godly Government.” Until Tulsi flip-flopped in order to win against Mufi Hannemann in the 2012 campaign, they were known mostly for their opposition to gay marriage.
According to media accounts and cult emails forwarded to Hawai’i Free Press by a former cult member, Tulsi Gabbard’s father, State Senator Mike Gabbard, is “Krishna Katha das“ in the cult and her mother Carol Gabbard is “Devahuti dasi.”
Allegedly cult members give 25% to the Jagadguru and are honored to eat his yummy toenail clippings. He is said to own three oceanfront Lanikai mansions.
Cults are known for their ability to draw in devotees and make them worship the leader. In a recent poll, Tulsi Gabbard’s popularity was tops among Hawaii politicians at 76%.
[By the way, Sunset Studios was around back in 1983 producing Jagad Guru Speaks videos. Most of the videos you see online of Butler were filmed there.
Sunset Studios was known famously as "The Warehouse" where young men and women slaved for no wages and lived in crawl spaces above the graphics department and darkroom. Some lived in cars and ate Down to Earth leftovers and dumpster garbage if they weren't on food stamps or welfare.
They also held devotional gatherings (kirtans) there where Butler was worshipped. Butler also had a private room at the location where he would hold court and complain about the air conditioner. Allegedly, Larry Olsen, a former policeman, was the "enforcer" and manager of the Warehouse. Yeah, this is the same Larry Olsen who once posed as the fake husband of Kathy Hoshijo when she ran for Congress under the Independents for Godly Government banner (see campaign brochures from that time). Former cult members describe him as a pit bull who would extort enormous tithes for displeasing the guru.
Tulsi Gabbard Office Manager Linked to Butler Cult
by Andrew Walden
Hawaii politics is supposedly all about seniority and connections. But shortly after the June, 2013 news that Tulsi Gabbard parted ways with former Abercrombie staffer Amy Asselbaye and professional congressional staffer Jennifer Goedke, she passed up legions of experienced former Inouye and Akaka staffers to quietly install Anya F. Anthony as her new Office Manager.
Who?
That would be Anya F Anthony, formerly agent of “Sunset Studios,” which Daily KOS identifies as a front for the Chris Butler Cult. According to DCCA business registration records, Sunset Studios was originally incorporated in Australia and registered in Hawaii as a foreign partnership in 2002. According a September, 2012, post on a cult watch website, Anya F Anthony is a “NZ disciple.”
Anya Anthony’s name comes up three times in a February 2012 Daily KOS expose of the links between the Gabbard campaign and the Chris Butler cult. KOS lists Anthony among a select group of donors to cult-linked political candidates over three decades--either Rick Reed’s 1994 campaign or Mike Gabbard’s 2004 campaign and also to Tulsi Gabbard’s 2012 Congressional campaign.
Chris Butler was born in 1948, the third son of Willis Butler, the ILWU’s Red Doctor of Molokai. But the red diaper baby became a Hare Krishna and, after taking LSD, led one of the many 1977 Hare Krishna splinter groups making himself ‘Jagadguru’ of the so-called Science of Identity foundation. They run the Down to Earth ‘natural food’ markets which profit from the anti-GMO hype spread by Rep Tulsi Gabbard. They also have a long history of sponsoring cult members as Hawaii political candidates starting with the 1970s third party effort, “Independents for Godly Government.” Until Tulsi flip-flopped in order to win against Mufi Hannemann in the 2012 campaign, they were known mostly for their opposition to gay marriage.
According to media accounts and cult emails forwarded to Hawai’i Free Press by a former cult member, Tulsi Gabbard’s father, State Senator Mike Gabbard, is “Krishna Katha das“ in the cult and her mother Carol Gabbard is “Devahuti dasi.”
Allegedly cult members give 25% to the Jagadguru and are honored to eat his yummy toenail clippings. He is said to own three oceanfront Lanikai mansions.
Cults are known for their ability to draw in devotees and make them worship the leader. In a recent poll, Tulsi Gabbard’s popularity was tops among Hawaii politicians at 76%.
[By the way, Sunset Studios was around back in 1983 producing Jagad Guru Speaks videos. Most of the videos you see online of Butler were filmed there.
Sunset Studios was known famously as "The Warehouse" where young men and women slaved for no wages and lived in crawl spaces above the graphics department and darkroom. Some lived in cars and ate Down to Earth leftovers and dumpster garbage if they weren't on food stamps or welfare.
They also held devotional gatherings (kirtans) there where Butler was worshipped. Butler also had a private room at the location where he would hold court and complain about the air conditioner. Allegedly, Larry Olsen, a former policeman, was the "enforcer" and manager of the Warehouse. Yeah, this is the same Larry Olsen who once posed as the fake husband of Kathy Hoshijo when she ran for Congress under the Independents for Godly Government banner (see campaign brochures from that time). Former cult members describe him as a pit bull who would extort enormous tithes for displeasing the guru.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
AC4711
()
Date: December 03, 2014 08:14AM
fascinating to see this cult is still thriving. from insider knowledge... it is astonishing.. but what the heck. it is a brainwashing cult. it is a sad attempt for people to find god and love through this flawed man Mr. butler. The cult still watches this site so intently. (haribol you lost souls I can see you as well) why get your children betrothed before they are adults? sick they are ... why? I know the goodness of your heart. but you are lost followers of a flawed man who thinks he can talk to god, he thinks he can lead people, he thinks these things. yet when mr. butler passes on ... he will meet his maker... and it I feel sorry for him.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.