No I did not read the books. But I do read people pretty good. I have met a lot of sincere folks within the Krishna religion and would not condemn them all because of the deception of some. I have met some who belong to neither of the said organizations and do not consider them brain=washed cult people, they found their path and it was with Hare Krishna at the top. They found somebody who could teach the truth within it. I am sure everyone in Iskcon and the 'Siddha folks cult' is not a demon with horns either. Just some sincere people who got mislead and brainwashed by those with an agenda. Shoot I was online the other day looking over the lives of some of the Popes in the Cath. Church. I was amazed that such rascals could have risen to power in that religion, but I don't believe all Catholics are bad people just because some rascals got control of it once upon a time in history. Was it not the great founding father of America Thomas Jefferson who said, 'big religious institutions tend towards corruption." Correct me if I am wrong. Just look at how many cults sprang out of Christianity and Islam, not a reason to reject the truth in it. Heck there are a truck load of bad apples in every religion and I have met atheist I consider a lot more godly than some religionist. Hey I loved the Rock and Roll Kirtans and the vegan dishes but couldn't stomach the dishonesty and deception. My ambition is to uncover the truth, both the good and the bad of it.

I am no philosopher, just a burnt out old lady who spent a lot of time observing and listening from the backround and participating on occasion. I do like to help others and I hope my posts are of some help. I get a buzz out of helping others when I can. I am sorry Bonnie got mislead but I don't believe hating the sinner is of much value or will help any overcome their anxieties. Wow I can't believe I just said that, isn't that a Christian value or just an old axiom?? I am no fool wherever I find the truth I try to grab a hold of it. If you find a sacred cow milk it for all its got that is my philosophy!!

I don't have all the answers or claim to be a new age wizard goddess demigod or jagged guru but I do know that in order to find the truth sometimes one has to wade through a bunch of crap.

You know Maui is the most beautiful place on earth but even here there is a lot of garbage. Just the other day I had to go drop off a heap of it at the dump. I could not believe what I found there. In the middle of all was a beautiful marigold flower growing. I picked it and brought it home.

My boyfriend says I am the greatest optimist in the world, even at the dump I found something nice.

Keep telling the truth Bonnie that is the only advice I can give.
I am sure you will find your balance and lucky for you this forum is here to help you and that people like Rick Ross have the integrity to put up forums like this and is honest enough to post all sides.

Simple truth spoken concisely is true eloquence.

The truth conquers all, that is the only religion I know of.

Call me an optimist.

Peace and truth be with you,
freespirit

If you read the above posts, (from the beginning), you would know that it was another person who asked for help with a problem regarding the group in the first place, not I, but thanks for your concern, sincere or otherwise. In my defense of the woman with the child in question, I have been subject to a number of repremands and criticisms of my character by group members. These have done little to change my opinion of what I experienced and witnessed. Perhaps your experience with the devotees was more limited and less disturbing.

As far as the sincerity of the group goes, I have seen little evidence of any in their response to that woman's pain. There was a time that I felt the same way that you do about them. I have little sympathy left for them at this point, and they have shown themselves, as a [b:8ed85f4759]group[/b:8ed85f4759], to be quite capable of rising to their own defense. I am just one individual, and certainly pose no threat to either them or you, regardless of your opinion of my interpretations of their behavior.

(Iskcon, on the other hand, was quite capable of defending themselves in the lawsuit brought against them by the approx. 400 abused and neglected "children of Iskcon". There are links to the actual lawsuit posted on this forum, if you care to investigate further than your own intuition.)

"Maui girl"

Who said anything about "demons with horns", anyway?
My allegations were much less lyrical, and more concrete. :roll:

I had previously wrtten and posted a long rebuttal, but I decided to erase it.

The woman who started this post seems to be satisfied with whatever answers and assistance she recieved. She is no longer asking questions or trying to contact me as in the past. My only concern was for the welfare of her relative. If this piques your interest, read the thread.

The previous poster obviously hasn't, or is pretending that she hasn't. I am sick of the lying, spying, and deception that has been going on here intended to disguise the issue and discredit those who have [b:3ef1cc6749]not[/b:3ef1cc6749] had positive experiences with the Cult following of Chris Butler and are willing to speak out about it.

Frankly, I'm bored with the whole thing and with cults in general.

<<<<In my defense of the woman with the child in question, I have been subject to a number of repremands and criticisms of my character by group members. These have done little to change my opinion of what I experienced and witnessed. Perhaps your experience with the devotees was more limited and less disturbing.>>>

Yes my experience with that group (siddha folks cult) was limited and less disturbing. I kept my distance.

If you have the integrity to speak the truth it won't be a bed of roses. History has shown that those who speak the truth rarely end up with palacial oceanside bungaloes in Hawaii or some other exotic location.. But…The truth always wins out in the end so just keep it up and don't let anyone silence you. You have something to say, and this forum has given you the place. Don't be intimidated.

<<<<As far as the sincerity of the group goes, I have seen little evidence of any in their response to this woman's pain. There was a time that I felt the same way that you do about them. I have little sympathy left for them at this point, and they have shown themselves, as a group, to be quite capable of rising to their own defense. I am just one individual, and certainly pose no threat to either them or you, regardless of your opinion of my interpretations of their behavior.>>>>

Where mercy is shown mercy is received. What goes around comes around. No body has to have a phd in philosophy to understand that. I do believe there are some sincere people in both the mentioned cults. My point is do not throw out the whole barrel due to the misdeeds of a few bad apples.

Every brainwashed army has it's cannon fodder of willing soldiers ready to carry on the status quo in order to rise to the top of the heap. I don't know if the 'Siddha folks cult' give out spiritual stars and stripes but from your testimony it sounds like they do.

I am quite aware of their ability to rise to the defense. I gave up debate with them long ago when it became apparent my simple questions like, "why don't you just admit you are hare Krishnas' and 'what's the paranoia about the third gender about' and 'where is jagad guru, why can't I go see him' were met with suspicion and preprogrammed robotic like responses. This is what brought me to this forum and inpired me to participate. I can give my opinion even if it differs from theirs and I am pretty sure at least a few of them are watching.

One thing I would like to say about the third gender paranoia is this. Whether you 'fight with' or 'make love with', those of a different sexual orientation it is still part of the same dance. What ever suits your fancy I suppose.

(<<<<<Iskcon, on the other hand, was quite capable of defending themselves in the lawsuit brought against them by the approx. 400 abused and neglected "children of Iskcon". There are links to the actual lawsuit posted on this forum, if you care to investigate further than your own intuition.)B>>>>>>

The ones at the top don't always represent the ones at the bottom or inbetween. Do you know how much abuse went on in the name of Jesus Christ??? A lot more than 400!!!! Again a simple point. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water. I know a couple of those kids who got abused. It did not dissuade them from remaining devotees. I know the parents too and they jumped for joy when the lawsuits were won. The 'Siddha folks cult' are not the only ones who offer good Kirtan parties and great vegetarian cooking.

No man/women in this world is omniscient, the bigger the group the harder it will be to control. Brainwashed is brainwashed but religion in itself is not all bad. What ever label you give it some will use it for their own nefarious desires.

<<<<Who said anything about "demons with horns", anyway?
My allegations were much less lyrical, and more concrete>>>

No you did not say that, I did.
Call me a poet if you like. When I speak from my heart that is how it comes out. I don't hide what is there or try to piece it together with bricks and morder. I just tell it like I see it. My 'demons with horns' point is simple. I would like to give a little balance to this forum and encourage all sides to speak out.

The easiest way to catch a rascal is by letting him/her talk. If they have nothing to hide let them come out and talk.

<<<I am sick of the lying, spying, and deception that has been going on here intended to disguise the issue and discredit those who have not had positive experiences with the Cult following of Chris Butler and are willing to speak out about it.>>>

I am on the side of the truth where ever that ends up. Keep talking and please and don't let me dissuade you. That is not my intention at all.



The following is just the gospel according to one freespirit. I don't mean to hurt or be cruel to any soul. But sometimes we can learn an awful lot from somebody we consider our inferior. So consider me an inferior but let me speak my peace.

In my estimation there is rarely any black and white scenerio. Figuring out the grey areas is what it is all about and which side of the grey to lean towards. I would not call any soul evil. I believe every soul in this world is inherently good. But I would say, and this is my opinion not necessarily 'absolute truth', that some how or other they (Jagat Guru and the Iskcon gurus after the founder left) got some of the wrong ingredients mixed up in the philosophy they teach and they ended up with a spoiled casserole. It looks good on the outside but sours the more you dig into it. Sooner or later somebody is going to have to eat the 'humble pie' and throw out the bad ingredients if that religion is going to go anywhere.

I am moving into my senior years now but when I was younger I used to get around quite a bit and do a lot of traveling.. One thing I could never get around was the Hare Krishna's at the airports. Every American traveler knows what I am talking about. Well the softy that I am I always gave them what they wanted and got a book in return. I ended up with quite a collection too!! There must be a gazillion of those books floating around the world by now. Well by golly I am not stupid, if I pay for something I am gonna get something out of it!!!.

According to the Hare Krishna books I read, the crown jewel of a Guru in the Hare Krishna Religion is his/her humility. Therefore it should be easy for the gurus to admit their mistakes, IF they are actually self-realized souls, as many profess to be and many of their followers proclaim. Lying, cheating, dishonesty, spying and deception are not the traits of a realized soul.

Why follow such rascals?

Wow it sure did feel good to say that!!

Still looking for a happy ending.

Amen.

peace and truth be with you,
yours,
freespirit

Curious word, "rascal", isn't it? The only time I have ever heard it spoken was from out of the mouths of members of the "inner Circle".

By the way, you're on Maui; you wouldn't happen to know Takahani, would you? She may go by Katyayani? ( Not sure of the spelling.)
They call her the "divine mother?"

No reason, just curious.

Rascal is a term commonly used by most Hare krishnas. At least the ones I have made contact with. Especically used by Mr. Bhaktivedanta Swami the founder of ISKCON. I found that term in several of Mr. Swami's writings and adopted it.

There must be 5 or 6 different Krishna groups in Hawaii. I try to be friendly with as many spiritualist as possible. The single common denominator amongst all of the Hare Krishnas is kirtan parties and great vegetarian dishes. I love all kinds of music and good vegetarian food.

Don't know about Takahani.

I hope this was of some help.

peace and truth be with you,
yours,
freespirit

(Calif.insider posted on the preceding page and mentioned a female Guru called "Takahani" from Maui, whose followers say she's the Divine Mother.)

James Michener also used the word rascals in the title of his book,"Rascals in Paradise". The book is about notorious pirates, "blackbirders" (slave-runners), and other "rascals" who operated in the South Pacific.

I believe that the devotees use the word as a fond chastisement for those devotees who use deception and unorthodox behavior as a means to achieve Krishna's (or their own; I was never very clear on which) ends.

Bhaktivedanta, from what I can gather, used the word with a slightly stronger connotation (see Webster's).

I think it is just a nice way of chastising some one… a kind way of chastising some one as opposed to calling them a demon, or some other derogatory slur. That is my understanding. At least that is how I use the word.

I will be off line for sometime, off to another Island on holiday but will check back in when I return.

Maybe by then some new developments.

until then…

peace and truth be with you,
yours,
freespirit

A few more things before I check out.

This rascal thing got me to thinking. I am a 'free thinker' and I think that is what separates sincere seekers of truth from 'brainwashed cult zombies'. No matter where a 'free thinker' ends up she/he is always true to his/her ethics. Whatever they may be. I think ethics fall into the relative position.

Anyway..
Here is the dictionairy definition I found for the word.
1. somebody who behaves in a teasing mischievous way, especially a child (humorous)
2. somebody, especially a man, who is dishonest or otherwise unethical

Well I suppose like the word 'Aloha' the word rascal can mean opposite things. Language is a dynamic thing and changes over time. For instance not that long ago the word 'cult' had no bad connotation on it. And the word 'gay' meant something else too. We have to be careful how we use those words today.

I guess if an adult were acting childlike we might call him a rascal in a humorous way. If a guru or president were misbehaving, the word would have a stronger connotation.

The world is full of all kinds of rascals in my estimation. Just look at the rascals who bombed the twin towers and the rascals who helped them. Ever wonder why there are no pictures of the plane that crashed into the Pentagon? Sure would be nice to catch those rascals and find out what really happened there. Not everything is so black and white as some would like to paint. Still in the grey here.

I sure do miss the good old sixties when people were not afraid to speak their mind. Something happened since then and it looks like a bunch of rascals took over everything from religious pulpits to the presidency. Hard to find a good 'scribe' these days willing to record the truth.

Anyway I am running out of inspiratation and hope to gather some on my holiday. Maybe I will have more to say more pertinent to this podium when I return.

I wonder if I will pick up another book on this journey?

Ok I am out the door now.

until then,,,

Peace and truth be with you,
yours,
freespirit