Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: tellyoulies ()
Date: May 18, 2013 07:26AM

how Wai Lana is on PBS... and the public does not know who is behind this... befuddles me

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Vera City ()
Date: May 18, 2013 07:29AM

Quote
tellyoulies
I am also aware this is a "moderated forum" and "Your message will remain hidden until it has been approved by a moderator or administrator" ... I am not sure why so much control is placed here. I get the point we don't want the (KRSNA) people taking over... but let it flow...

The policy on this forum is to moderate a new member's first 10 postings. We all go through this. After 10 posts there is no longer a delay. This forum has been stocked full of trolls on many occasions. So be patient with the policy. Don't take it personally. It's really for the greater good. If you are sincerely here to discuss Butler and his dangerous cult, you will be respected and have a voice here. This is not a forum for cult apologists. Unfortunately, some trolls in the past here have successfully demonized and got actual anti-Butler people removed from the forum. People have been harrassed and flamed both on and off the forum. Butler zealots have had some fun and games here. I appreciate the strict policy. It provides a safe place for people to post and validate their own histories... and yes, to recover. Not everyone's experience has been the same within the cult, but the consensus is generally the same. Butler is a fraud.

There are many kinds of people who post here. We don't all agree with each other, but respect the contributions and perspectives of each member (unless they are here to defend or apologize for old Sai). Rick Ross has set the greater agenda here; which is to provide a place for people to get information about cults. Another thing to consider is that the people who post here are at different stages of their recovery or still in the process of leaving the cult (which can take years for some).

Many people come here with misconceptions about cults so I suggest you look at the vast ammount of supplementary information Rick Ross has provided. A good place to start is reading the Mind Control section and : MARGARET THALER SINGER. PhD WRITINGS

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: tellyoulies ()
Date: May 18, 2013 07:48AM

The big question will loom... when Mr. Butler passes on and leaves this earthy plane (as it happens to all of us)
the power grab ... will be incredible... who is 2nd in command?

it is Wai Lana's son who will take over, as Mr. butler does not have any children... and the children of Wai Lana were from another man and Mr. Butler stole his wife (Wai Lana) for his own... that is what the story around the group was said.. the inner workings could be different.. but that is what we were told...


Wai Lana was raised in the east in a wealthy family. And she was married and had children with another man, this man a older white guy... and from the stories told... Mr. Butler wanted her to be HIS wife... and Wai Lana ,who is a disciple of Mr. Butler... (your guru is your husband? sick) became his consort.

and to talk about being hypocritical... the way Mr. Butler was initiated by his Guru (AC. Baktivedanta Swami) he was to not have a wife... so Mr. Butler throws all this to the wind and gets a wife??? yup PURE disciplic succession indeed. don't listen to your guru and do what you want.... yes Mr. Butler can re-write the rules to the religion... as he is beyond the rules written in the book.

but I guess that is how it is being in contact with Krsna 1 to 1

You see MR. Butlers disciples believe he has the 7 fold mystic powers (like another female guru who lives in Dana Point, California who was also initiated by AC. Baktivendata and is still a follower of Mr. Butlers... Katyani Devi Dasi AKA Kathy Hoshijo [google her if you like she is taking on disciples in Southern California still to this day and they support her financially sounds familiar? )

but he has the power to .
Create Worlds (like planet earth) power like and beyond what Jesus could do .. raise the dead, fly walk on water... (now that is 100% true that this is believed by his followers.... to make himself very wealthy... and be a super human.. but alas all these things are not as sweet or wonderful to be in loving connection with his blue god...

so BOTH Mr. Butler and Mrs. Hoshijo.. can do more mystical things than any other living being on this planet... they could ... Stop global warming.. um... heal the sick... cure cancer... cure AIDS.. help sick babies to heal to live .. how about Stop all the wars on the planet? like right now.... but they choose not to do so.. because ????
(I am pretty sure they can't) ...


tellyoulies -

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Vera City ()
Date: May 18, 2013 08:23AM

Quote
tellyoulies
I am also aware this is a "moderated forum" and "Your message will remain hidden until it has been approved by a moderator or administrator" ... I am not sure why so much control is placed here. I get the point we don't want the (KRSNA) people taking over... but let it flow...

tellyoulies,
Welcome to the forum and thank you for telling us about the book, "Wet Hot and Wild American Yogi".
Can you tell us how the author was ostracized by the group?

I read some excerpts of this book on Amazon Wet Hot and Wild American Yogi
Having studied this cult for years and interviewed many exers I found the following sentences a fairly common experience.

Of Sai he says, "I don't know where the clarity and humor went." [Older exers from the 70's describe a shift in Butler from mellow guru to insane megalomaniac].

And again, every exer had an ephiphany where they realized the guru had clay feet.
The book describes it perfectly,
"In that moment, I saw the game. Inside I felt alone and lonely. I realized I had played the role of spiritual being all along. And she, the guru, was just maintaining the political heirarchy. She had no insight into my heart." [Of course the "L.A. guru" refered to in this passage is Katyayani.] Her cold advice to the protagonist of the book is classic Butler philosophy.

The book also describes the process of choosing select followers as "pure devotees" or enlightened, solely to further the scam. This is a dangerous manipulation that Butler used on Katyayani, Wai Lana, and presumably Tulsi Gabbard, [and others]. It looks as if Katyayani herself continued the tradition. In reality it only serves the purpose of the narcissist who feels elevated enough to know who is worthy. Only the pure devotee can determine another pure devotee. In the end, the finger wraps around the person trapped in the guru's mirror and points back to the guru alone. Make no mistake, unless you can be used to make the guru look good, you are useless to him/her.

Just so you know; the policy on this forum is to moderate a new member's first 10 postings. We all go through this. After 10 posts there is no longer a delay. This forum has been stocked full of trolls on many occasions. So be patient with the policy. Don't take it personally. It's really for the greater good. If you are sincerely here to discuss Butler and his dangerous cult, you will be respected and have a voice here. This is not a forum for cult apologists.

Unfortunately, some trolls in the past have successfully demonized anti-Butler people and got them removed from the forum. People have been harrassed and flamed both on and off the forum. Butler zealots have had some fun and games here. Since then, the forum is more carefully monitored. I appreciate the strict policy. It provides a safe place for people to post and validate their own histories... and yes, to recover. Not everyone's experience has been the same within the cult, but the consensus is generally the same; Butler is a fraud.

There are many kinds of people who post here. We don't all agree with each other, but respect the contributions and perspectives of each member (unless they are here to defend or apologize for old Sai).

Rick Ross has set the greater agenda here; which is to provide a place for people to get information about cults. Another thing to consider is that the people who post here are at different stages of their recovery or still in the process of leaving the cult (which can take years).

People may come here with misconceptions about cults, so I suggest you look at the vast ammount of supplementary information Rick Ross has provided. A good place to start is the Mind Control section and: MARGARET THALER SINGER. PhD WRITINGS

That way you will better understand the purpose and spirit of this forum.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: tellyoulies ()
Date: May 18, 2013 08:56AM

Can you tell us how the author was ostracized by the group?

You bet.

The author received death threats from Butler Cult followers.
The author has blood relatives who will not speak to him.
The author was not allowed to be in the same room alone with his little sister after the book was written, because he was thought of as "crazy" and would possible rape his sister... this was instructions coming from his guru and other "leaders"
The majority of the people who grew up with him (friends, and relatives no longer speak with him)

he is an outcast to most everyone who he knew.... because he chose to write a book about his experiences.
now remember .. if you read the book. he was raised from day 1 into this cult... these things I say may not sound like a big deal to some of you... but if you were raised in this cult were brought up to be a guru, and people bowed to you and thought you were a saint.. then to toss you out like the trash...

tellyoulies-

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Vera City ()
Date: May 18, 2013 11:22PM

tellyoulies-
You bring some fresh and new insights about the cult.
Thank you for your courage.
I was most interested to hear that Butler's step son is now being groomed to be his successor.
Has he too been annointed as a pure devotee as was the author of the book "Wet Hot and Wild American Yogi"?

Is Katyayani still connected to Butler?
We have heard that she split off from him with her husband and that Butler was pissed about her taking followers and called her husband BT "envious".

Wai Lana has been a topic on this forum for a long time. Some people have also contacted the media about her
connection to Butler, but no one cares. Religious freedom and all that.
How much internet access do cult kids actually have?

Also, what is new to note is Butler's (and Katyayani's) claim to have "7 fold mystical powers".
This was not claimed in the "Siddha" and "Jagad Guru" beginning years. Actually this claim is more from the Sai days.
Just what are these 7 powers exactly?
I was in contact for a short while with a follower on the fringe who was afraid to post here because he claimed the leaders in the cult
KNOW things, and that Butler has mystical powers.

As a kid, did you learn "psychic sleep" type of meditations?
Do you remember any of the specifics?

It seems Butler has been relying on more and more wild claims to keep control.

What made the difference for you?
Without revealing what you don't want to reveal, why did you leave the cult?
What do you want to tell your peers about the cult?

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: VitaminC ()
Date: May 19, 2013 01:43AM

The 7 fold mystic powers as far as I know, were definitely from the Sai days. I recall mention of some of CB's "mystic powers" but they were rarely talked about openly and were only done so to solidify his stature as a powerful guru who was above our lowly mortal status.

Looking at the projects that Siddha has been working on, it definitely looks like he is being groomed for the succession as Guru. So much for the guru being"self evident." Now you just wait to be told who the new guru is going to be, ala ISKON.

Siddha's responsibilities remind me a lot of what was given to Tusta Krishna as he was declared a Pure Devotee aka one of the guru's pets.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Vera City ()
Date: May 19, 2013 02:42AM

Interesting interview from Shyam Dodge, author of "Wet Hot and Wild American Yogi", who grew up in Butler's cult.
INTERVIEW WITH SHYAM DODGE


Quote
Shyam Dodge
After breaking my monastic vows and publicly relinquishing my position as a guru I had not entirely given up on the possibility of continuing to be an arbiter and teacher of spirituality and meditation in this post-guru phase of my life. My entire identity and self-understanding was based upon being a spiritual authority. If you spend nearly twenty years, since you were five years old (as I was), actively pursuing enlightenment and submitting to an intensely orthodox Hindu tradition, as well as finding consistent validation from the community you are a part of, it is extremely difficult to conceive of, let alone construct, an identity outside of the role of “spiritual master.”

After leaving my tradition I continued to teach workshops and meditation intensives in the larger world of American and European yoga. Needless to say, I persisted in carrying many of the teaching methods of the guru tradition, as it was the basis of my religious education, into this post-guru phase.

In particular, I taught a six week intensive in the Midwest, about a year after I first left being a monk, which made me confront the ethics of my teaching methods. Through dharma talks, one-on-one sessions with students, and other forms of yogic/Vedic ritual I found that I was merely perpetuating the very same dysfunctions of the guru tradition that I had left and was now trying to reform. This was an incredibly heavy realization to come to. Not only was I continuing to hold my students’ idealizations of “the enlightened spiritual prodigy” but I, as a teacher, had not constructed or learned a healthier alternative teacher-student dynamic.

In essence, I was continuing to psychologically enslave my students in a relationship where they were dependent upon me as both conduit for divine grace and as a kind of spiritual autocrat who had control over their internal lives. This is the basis for the guru tradition. Gurus are the spiritual authorities gifted not only with privileged mystical insight but are also the gatekeepers for the divine. Essentially, the representatives for the divine on earth, who act as intermediaries for the rest of humanity. While, I was not overtly practicing this educational model it was implicit within my teaching methods.
...

I engaged with my students as if I had some special insight into their innermost being, which I alone had access to. Not only that, but I could somehow divinely intervene in their spiritual development by rapidly processing and pushing past their interior boundaries through the power of my unique personality. I was presenting myself as a kind of potent catalyst for spiritual change and evolution. I was forceful. I was charismatic. I was highly trained. And I could hold another person’s gaze longer than was humanly natural. My students, in the Midwest, described me as “walking love.”
My advertisements for workshops, at that time, were of me with long guru-hair, smiling with supernatural love and “knowingness.” I basically looked like Paramahansa Yogananda.

I ended the six week intensive in the Midwest two weeks before it was scheduled to finish both due to a family emergency (which is briefly discussed in the book) and because of my own dawning revelation that I was not holding appropriate space for my students precisely because I had yet to process my own experience in the guru tradition. I was simply perpetuating the very same sickness I was seeking to heal.

When I wrote the book (a year after the Midwest revelations) I had come to the conclusion that I never wanted to be a guru again, even a “post-guru Guru.” I had come to realize how dis-empowering that educational structure was for the students I was teaching and how isolating it was for me. By continuing to be a kind of guru, I was taking the power necessary for real spiritual growth away from my students by enabling them to project their idealization needs upon me, while erasing my own humanity by continuing to hold those “spiritual” projections.


Still, I had something to offer in sharing my personal history and the insights I had come to. I chose the silly title and book cover in order to hobble my own tendency to invite and sustain the “spiritual” idealizations of others as well as guard against the impulse of spiritually curious people to overly idealize someone with my kind of pedigree. I wanted to satirize my own tendencies toward messianic pretense. Self-deprecation has immense value in this regard....

Abuses of power by spiritual teachers is incredibly common, I believe, precisely because the metaphysics often support such behavior.

If the teacher has access to some invisible supernatural domain, which is outside the purview of most “normal” people, then it only makes sense that the power dynamic will be vertical with the spiritual teacher resting upon an unimpeachable pedestal of unhealthy idealization. Add that to the vulnerability most sincere seekers bring to teacher-student relationships, especially in spiritual contexts, and you have a recipe for dysfunction.

The power dynamics of the guru tradition are very different than other educational systems. This is because both the expectations and what is actually at stake is much greater for the student than in other domains of learning. No one expects their high school English teacher to answer and fulfill all of their existential longings and questions, nor do they expect them to have supernatural insight into the universe as well as their innermost being (at least I hope not). But these are the expectations inherent to the role of the guru or enlightened master. This idealization of supposedly “enlightened beings” is, again, underpinned by a metaphysical model that privileges the insights of the guru as being supernatural and beyond the ken of most “normal” humans.

But, if spirituality is not privileged in this way and is actually grounded in the reality we all live in, this earth, this body, then there are no “gurus” who have a kind of privileged insight inaccessible to others. If our spirituality is naturalized in this way then spiritual authority rests within each individual.

The divine we are looking for is then located in our own body, our own breath, in our humanity as being inseparable from the natural world. Teachers, then, can act as facilitators for the authentic process of their students, not as divine intermediaries. This requires both public education, so that appropriate expectations are set for spiritual teachers, as well as educational reform to reflect this more horizontal teacher-student dynamic.

Obviously, there are even more complex ethical concerns at stake here as well as many more nuances in how to effectively advance such an educational model. But, I think, this reinvesting in the body, in our humanity, as being the source and basis for spirituality is the first step towards developing healthy models for mind-body therapists and teachers. It is, as Mary Parker Follet said, about having “power with” rather than “power over” your students. This happens, I believe, in the simple articulation of locating spiritual authority in human nature, rather than in some unseen supernatural dimension. This makes spirituality immediately communicable, shareable, and knowable for anyone at any time free of any need for divine intermediaries.

...

The altered states achieved in meditation are not dependent upon developmental maturity in order to be experienced. And, developmental growth is not necessarily dependent upon achieving altered states of consciousness. But, I think, that both traditions ignore one another at their own peril.

To speak from personal experience, many long-term practitioners and teachers of meditation, while very accomplished in contemplative practice, are often developmentally stunted in their psychological maturity.
It’s also true, however, that a lot of profound psychological growth can happen due to and in light of experiencing altered states of consciousness.

In my own life, I know how much certain meditation practices enabled me to further dissociate from difficult emotional and psychological material, which only served to stunt my growth as a person. At the same time, many profound experiences in meditation have given me further insight into my own psychology that has aided my developmental growth. So, they can be complimentary systems if properly integrated..

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Vera City ()
Date: May 19, 2013 03:54AM

Here is an amazing conversation with Shyam Dodge, son of Purushottam (Patrick Bishop) who followed Sai and Katyayani.
He validates years of postings here.

I was in tears listening to the story of his greiving sister being sent away to Butler's school in the Philippines and the damage done to her.
Equally tragic was the goodbye to his brother who was told he could no longer associate with him because he was an aparadha (blasphemer).

Shayam is articulate and eloquent.

What stands out is that he only refers to Butler as "SAI" and the school in the Philippines as an "ashram" and "nunery" in "Southeast Asia".
The thing to note is that his parents left the vortex in Hawaii to create independence both spiritually and financially. They were more autonomous than some other members of the cult. And how many of Butler's cult kids went to college, much less Harvard!?

This was recorded September 23, 2012

SCROLL DOWN
to the interview with SHYAM DODGE
and click and/or download the audio link.
Beyond Awakening Interview with Shyam Dodge

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death threats
Posted by: Vera City ()
Date: May 19, 2013 06:05AM

DEATH THREATS

Now more questions are emerging for me.

Several people have reported that they have received death threats from Butler followers for leaving cult or publishing things critical of Butler. In Shyam Dodge's interview he says that his mother, a devotee of Butler at the time, went to him to complain about the threats against her son Shyam. Butler claimed to not know anything about it and declared that it stop. His mother was close enough to him to ask him about this personally - not all followers have this relationship. Why doesn't Butler come out publicly about this behavior instead of plastering the internet with his vacuous psuedo-spiritual musings from 30 years ago (photos, quotes, and videos). Doesn't anyone see anything wrong with this picture?!
Why doesn't he create anything new?
More than one person has contacted me to tell me they were threatened and told to not post on this forum.

Shyam Dodge says his mother also had several conversations about the damage done to her daughter at the girls school in the Philippines with Butler and that he later apologized, closed the school down for awhile to investigate, and then reopened. Was he truly concerned about the children or the scandal/lawsuit it could bring upon him?! The people involved in the abuse of this young girl should be put in jail along with Butler.

I was wondering what happened to all those cult kids and now the stories are emerging. Shyam shared his biography and got brutally shunned so others may not come forward.

I am now wondering what happened to Katyayani's kids. They are all over facebook. Most profess yoga and vegetarianism. How were they affected being raised by a "guruette" and so-called "pure devotee". How could a kid sort all of that out? Were they required to go to the indoctrination centers in the Philippines? We know Chibi went and got beaten up - hated it there -
I would love to know if some of them have similar perspectives as Shyam.

Also, how do you feel their sexuality and adult relationships were affected by growing up in the LA cult or Hawaii cult?

Is the reason the movie career of Siddha das on hold (finishing Kama Kula and Little Ninjai as well as acting gigs) because he is being groomed to succeed the old Sai? Siddha das is Wai Lana's son from another marriage.

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