Guess The American Public should wake up and start paying closer attention to the political arena.

Well, they'll have plenty of competition for the office of the presidency: I bet every two-bit cult from coast-to-coast and then some has plans for that position. Apparently there's a percieved weakness in our political system, (as well as a percieved gullibility in our general populace), that the savvy power-seeking cult is quick to exploit. From what I've been reading lately, these guys have some catching up to do.

Throughout this forum the word 'brainwashed' comes up over and over. But it is not the followers of 'vedic knowledge' who are brainwashed it is those who follow the 'status quo' in the material world who are brainwashed. Material brainwashing goes deep and until one comes to understand his real identity as spirit one will remain the servant of his senses and the 'dancing dog' of other exploiters in the material world, whose only goal in life is to bring enjoyment and so-called pleasure to the material body. The material world is full of such self centered egotist and the USA is at the top of the pyle when it comes to sense gratification and exploitation. No nation on earth exploits and rapes Mother Earth more than the modern societies headed by the big bully America.

If you read this and you are a slave to your senses you will most likely become angry. Anger is the result of unsatisfied lust. In other words what I am saying here will simply give an outlet for your smoldering lust. What I am saying is not the cause of your anger. Lust is the cause of your anger.

So now that you are angry I have a quiz and challenge for you. I say you are brainwashed and in ignorance. I say you do not even really know what happened on September 11, 2001.

First the quiz and then I will tell you what really happened.

Please find me a picture of flight 77, the 757 that supposedly crashed into the pentagon on 9/11. You cannot find one because no 757 crashed into the pentagon. It was a missle or drone that caused the explosion that killed 125 people in the pentagon. Guess who did it. Your own government you fool.

What really happened on 9/11?

America needed more oil to bring to the masses of brainwashed servants of the senses who all reside there. Only a 9/11 would rally the people to go to war. Your government let the terrorist do what they did and even gave them a little help with the pentagon. The war is about securing more oil because it is oil that drives the modern, hedonistic, demonic society of America. The brainwashed slaves of the senses will go to any length to bring enjoyment to the material senses.

If this had happened in the 60's there would have been protests from coast to coast but because most are now completely brainwashed they don't even care to find out what really happened on 9/11. As long as they get their big macs and Monday nite football everything is hunkey dorey. Who cares about the 40,000 innocent children who have been crippled by the American war machine since 9/11, just give us our cow flesh and football.

Furthermore there are no accidents in the material world. The recent hurricane and now Rita are the results of karma and more will come from Mother Earth. It is not nice to exploit and rape our Mother Earth and she is now retaliating against the hedonistic brainwashed sense gratifyers.

Rumor in California is Kathy Hoshijo is not a member of Chris's cult anymore. At one time she was a big guru within the cult but had a falling out with Chris and got demoted. My sources tell me she was once a political figure in Hawaii and ran for a few offices but never got elected. Then she moved to Ca. They say Chris wanted her to get back into politics but she did not like to. She thought Chris's group got too big and started acting like Iskcon, what they were trying to get away from they had become. Now she has her own sub-cult. Apparently she does not have grand ambitions to take over the world and is happy with a small following. They call her Takahani it means Great Women Guru. Her followers say she is the mother of God in the spirit world. Strangely enough she still considers Chris her guru but is not allowed to be a guru in his cult anymore.

I worked at Down to Earth. Being a vegetarian and knowing D.T.E. promotes that lifestyle I became attracted to work there. I have also always been interested in theology and being part of the 'new age' I had no qualms about working for D.T.E. I had already studied different religions and pride myself in knowing the philosophies behind all the major religions of the day from Christianity to the Hare Krishnas (Gaudiya Vaishnavism).

I think it is common knowledge in Hawaii that D.T.E. is run by a branch of the Hare Krishnas. Probably the only ones who think differently are the owners of D.T.E. I think they are only fooling themselves. People are not as dumb as they think!!!

I found the atmosphere at D.T.E. very pleasant and had no trouble or complaints about my treatment there. I became close friends with one of the devotees and to tell you the truth got a little charmed by him. I would not say he was flirting with me but I guess it was border-line flirtation. On second thought it was flirtation. I was a little surprised considering our age difference, he was quite older, anyway I was charmed.

Finally he asked me for a date and I accepted. When my interest in theology became apparent he was more than happy to tell me all about Krishna Consciousness and the difference between Chris's group and Iskcon, 'The International Society for Krishna Consciouness.' The first thing I asked him was if it was ok for him to date one outside his religion, if he would get in trouble for seeing me or not.. His answer was that it was ok for men but not women. In other words the men can date and take wives from outside but the women are not allowed to. I already knew some of the female workers at D.T.E. were dating outside and brought it up. He just said 'yea, we aren't fanatics about it, they are not supposed to do that, they aren't chaste!!. How chauvinistic!!

Anyway the women that I am, I was still 'taken in' by him and continued to see him. It was a mix of wanting to find out more about the group and carnal attraction.

He invited me to some classes but I preferred to keep things one on one and learn what they teach from him, keeping a distance from the group. I had already tried chanting the Hare Krishna mantra and did not want to join anything in that regard.

By the end of the relationship, which went on for several months, I was not really convinced there was much difference in philosophy between Chris's group and the mainline Hare Krishna movement. The difference is only in appearance. Chris's followers do not wear the Krishna dress, they follow Chris instead of the leader of ISKCON, and their tendency is to keep things low key and out of the public are the main differences.

He never talked about politics and I never inquired about the many allegation I had read in the media concerning their group and politics. I hate politics!!

From a theological point of view I would say Chris's group is a watered down version of the 'Krsna Consciousness movement' with a 'western pseudo conservative Christian twist'. They are kind of an 'unorthodox', loose if you will, version of the 'Hare Krishnas'. What I mean by 'pseudo conservative' is that they preach conservative Christian values but practice something else. I got no indication from our dating the man was celibate, ever had been, or was in control in that department at all. Nor would I say the same about some of the girls who worked at D.T.E. I know because I used to practice celibacy and know the symptoms of one who does. On several occasions I asked about the seemingly contradictory behavior. His answer was always the same, 'we aren’t fanatics'. Enough said there.

We have seen in every major religion that after the initial leader comes and goes many sub-branches or 'cults',if you like that word, spring up. This has happened in every religion from Christianity to Islam. I know, I have studied them all.

Anyway this relationship went on for several months and then on one occasion I could tell he was very agitated about something. His usual calm and gentlemen like behavior was gone. When I inquired what the problem was he started raving about homosexuality and how evil it is. I was flabbergasted at his change in demeanor. To tell you truth I thought what he was saying sounded somewhat demented and evil. How could a spiritual person go on and on about the sexual behavior of the third gender? I am really not interested in the sexual affairs of others, straight or gay. It was a real turn off. I had to ask him to stop talking about that stuff. Yuk. Yuk. Yuk.!!! He was acting like some one who purposely went and stuck their nose in a big pile of dog crap, then was going around telling everyone how bad it stinks and how evil dog crap is!!! How perverse!!! What he was saying was way more perverse than what I know about the third gender. Nothing spiritual about that kind of talking at all in my opinion. I told him I had a headache and asked him to take me home immediatly. I never dated him again but he kept trying and trying to get me to go out. Finally I found another job.

It seems as though this group considers homosexuality to be a more serious sin than killing cows.... or maybe it's because condemning meat-eating and threatening to shut down slaughter-houses will not sit well with the majority of voters?

Some members of ISCON considered the group to be not bona fide as their swamis dropped their swami titles and got married, (even Chris got married and changed title from "Swami" to "Paramahamsa"), giving the reason that in this day and age it was not possible to disassociate from women, (or maybe they got so renounced that they were able to renounce their renunciation???)

The group has a tendency to make enemies... first it was ISKON, who are the arch-enemy number one... then it was the mob in Hawaii when the group printed newspapers claiming that a certain individual was the boss of organized crime in Hawaii... and now the homosexuals with all the political activity recently in Honolulu.... not to mention the Christians who do not like to be called "so-called Christians" as per Chris's lectures. I suspect a bit of paranoia, and that the secrecy is to protect them from these awful enemies??

Carol wise seems to be knowledgeable as pertains to the cult.
I would like to ask her, or anyone out there who knows the answers, a few questions if permitted.

What do you mean by 'conservative Christian values' and how do the cult members preach them?

How does the cult harmonize the two opposing theologies, Christianity and Hare Krishna?

How wide spread is this Krishna group? I could not find any links on the web to correspond with a member?

Do they have secret initiations and practices? Do they have priests? Are they similar to the Freemasons that have a huge following but manage to keep everything silent to outsiders? How does one become a member of the group?

Why did Carol mention celibacy? Are the cult members required to practice celibacy?

I can't say much without giving my identity away.

I was a Krishna kid. I grew up in the middle of it. I was in the school in Samoa that Mike Gabbard (Krishna Katha) ran. Later they moved the school to the Phillipines and some other disciple took over. Most of the stuff I read here is accurate, some might be out-of-date. I think some of the names mentioned might have left the cult. I've been away for a long time and don't know for sure. I only hear things second or third hand now. When I got old enough to make up my own mind I got out of it. The world is a much brighter place both spiritually and materially than most in Chris's world think.

I learned the philosophy better than most because from reading all the books by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, who Chris is suppose to be following, I do not believe what Chris has made even slightly resembles a true 'Krishna Conscious' or 'God Centered' society. It was more like a 'Chris Butler' centered society. With him as the deity not God as the center.

Everyone is supposed to live simply, in other words give most of your money or energy to Chris, or give everything. Meanwhile he lives like some kind of super billionaire demigod with people competing to be the one who gets the glorious privilege of drinking his footwater.

Millions of dollars and never even built one decent temple for God/Krishna?? What about feeding the poor (prasadam) or other charitable work recommended by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami and all other God conscious gurus and saintly persons? What about the symptoms of a guru posted by Barbara?

What the heck do they do with all the money anyway? Down to Earth alone must rake in hundreds of thousands what to speak of all the money that gets donated to Chris from around the world. Where does the money go???

I guess Kailuaboy knows where the money goes. A free ride for the guru and queen bee. I bet he lives in some palace by now served by underlings ready to facilitate his every whim.

A self-realized soul is supposed to be detached from unneeded comforts. What a bunch of horse do.

If any others of my kind are watching this do yourself a favor and get out. Self realization does not end with Chris Butler. Krishna Consciousness may be real, but that cult is not. Wake up!!!

There are more of us out here than you think. There is help for you.

:DLiving on Maui for 35 years I have had many dealings with the Siddha folks. I go all the way back to the first kirtans at Baldwin Beach Park. Up till a few years ago I used to go to all the Rock and Roll kirtan parties on Maui. Great food and great Rock and Roll!!
Vegan friendly too!! Chris stopped coming to Maui ages ago. And I haven't seen the regulars chanting in the open for a long time now.

:wink:They are seemingly on the outside nice people and nobody ever pressured me to join anything or give anything up. In the beginning they did but stopped when it was obvious I am a free spirit and did not want to be on the inside or follow restrictions on my freedom. I am not one for celibacy or to give away what I work for. It didn't seem to bother them and they still always welcomed me to the kirtan parties.

:cry:I finally got turned off by the dishonesty and double standards, I stopped going to the gatherings. I don't like their politics. It really reeks of dishonesty.

:evil:There must be a hundred cults on Maui and everyone is the same. A person on the inside looses touch with what is happening on the outside and thinks they can outsmart those outside the inner cult. But only the dim-witted get outsmarted.

:oops:Doesn't say much for the general populace does it considering cults are still getting lots of recruits!!

:shock:Everybody on Maui knows the politics, who belongs to what religion, and it is no secret who owns D.T.E., every new age soul and media expert on Maui knows that.

:evil:That the media cannot uncover the truth shows their ineptitude.

:evil:What happened to investigative reporting anyway?

:oops:I wonder if there are followers on the inside of Chris's cult who don't know the politics? I bet there must be thousands who don't really know what the politics is all about.

:roll: This might be a good place for them to get an education.

:o This forum is second only to Miracle of Love in the number of watchers.

shock: Keep watching guys and girls this could get really good!!!

:cry:I could never understand why they don't just say who they are. What is the big deal anyway? It reeks of some kind of weird paranoia.

:o If you are a Christian be a Christian. If you are a Buddhist be a Buddhist. If you are an atheist be an atheist. If you are a Hare Krishna be a Hare Krishna and don't say you are something else or deny it.

cry: I don't know why anyone who believes in something would deny their own beliefs or would be ashamed of it. I know Iskcon got a lot of bad press and made a lot of mistakes but honestly I have to admit I was impressed that unlike other big institutions they did not try to cover it up. Most devotees I talk to are glad all that negative stuff came out in the open so they could eliminate it. You can't say that about more mainstream religious organization like the Cath. Church who spent millions trying to cover it up . I have to applaud Iskcons honesty on the matter, not condemn them even if I am not a Hare Krishna and don't believe their dogma or want to join their cult or religion.

cry: If I vote for somebody it is based on their platform not their religious background. Who cares anyway??

:twisted: But if somebody denies their own religion or says they are something they are not, I get really turned off. I also have to ask why they are hiding it, is there something in Hare Krishna that should be covered up and not revealed? Are you doing a service or disservice to your religion? What is the real agenda?

I am sure time will tell all. :o
Truth is always way more exciting than fiction.shock:

Peace and truth be with you.:lol::lol::lol::lol:
yours,
freespirit


8) :wink: :roll: :cry: :evil: :wink: :P :P :D :D :D :o :shock: :o :o :twisted: :shock:

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
Here is an interesting web site where one of Jagad Guru's disciples (now a guru in his own right in Florida) spills the beans concerning the LSD early connections. Perhaps this was Chris's first LSD supplier.

These words are taken directly from the story that this guru obviously approved of.. as usual disclaiming any connection with Hare Krishna and admitting that he targets young people.



"Jumping to his own defense he (S.I. F. Guru Sankirtan das) says, "I know some of you will recognize this (the hare Krishna Mantra), but I am not a Hare Krishna."


The teachings of Jagad Guru fill the center.

Born in New York with the name Paul Manning, Sankirtan grew up in South Florida - smoking pot, dropping acid and surfing. To avoid the draft, he enrolled as an art major at UF in 1969. After a year, he took the name "Sunshine" and went to Washington, D.C., where he organized political protests and rallies.

"We fed the media info, and they made it happen," he explains. "The media actually organized most of our protests for us."

After hitchhiking across the country, he found himself in Boulder, Colo., where he began "wheeling and dealing in LSD," making enough money to buy a plane ticket to Kauai, Hawaii.

It was in Hawaii where Sunshine met his spiritual master, Jagad Guru - whose "bureaucratic" name is Chris Butler…..


For the complete authorized and approved of by S.I. F. guru Sankirtan das aka Paul manning story go to the site and read it all… [www.alligator.org]

Did you actually say that Iskcon didn't try to cover their crap up?
Have you read the books about it?

In my experience, when people consistantly lie even though their lies have been revealed, it is often because they are so egotistical that they still think they are pulling the wool over everyone's eyes. Or it could be like a good sales pitch. Win a few. lose a few, the bottom line is the bottom line.

There are a few disparities that really JUMP out at me;

I was instructed that this life is an illusion created by Maya because Krishna wants us to be happy trying to play God. (That's what they told me.)
I was told that [b:f5b0dd9716]I[/b:f5b0dd9716] should not be overly concerned with the things of this world, such as prestige, love, companionship. I was told that it was wrong for [b:f5b0dd9716]me[/b:f5b0dd9716] to mourn "the death of a loved-one".
I was told that if [b:f5b0dd9716]I[/b:f5b0dd9716] sought prestige, power, or tried to control this illusory exisistance in any way, [b:f5b0dd9716]I[/b:f5b0dd9716] was following the direction of [b:f5b0dd9716]my[/b:f5b0dd9716] false ego, rather than the Paramatma, the supersoul within me. (No, I haven't forgotten.)
It was suggested that being alone made an individual stronger in his quest for enlightenment, or love of God, or whatever it is they are supposedly promoting. Who needs a family? Your [b:f5b0dd9716]real[/b:f5b0dd9716] family is with Krishna. I was taught that all [b:f5b0dd9716]I[/b:f5b0dd9716] needed was love for Krishna.

Yet,
from what I see, the people preaching this pursue material wealth, human love, human companionship, power and prestige with the same vengence as any other media-addicted follower of fashion. They favor and protect their own friends and family, while shaming others, (fringies, karmis, those without allies within the organization), for this kind of social seeking and behavior.
This could be basic, boring hypocracy, the same as that practiced by the followers of a million other supposedly spiritual traditions.

It could also be just good advertising, sophisticated sales technique used in the same way that any money-making business or politician uses it.
Keep 'em down, keep profits up. Don't give a sucker an even break. Divide and conquer. Big business has been doing this forever.
And aren't all of these reputedly spiritual organizations in reality just practicing business as usual?
Call me a cynic.