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atheist
She would have more time to show us that the changes in her political direction are sincere. She could also work to build up her base. I agree that she would be preferable to Mufi Hannemann. But can we really trust her??

Good question. Is it worth the risk? If people and families affected adversely by this cult organized and approached her as a political force, it might do something. (Maybe cause her to serve the people over her guru... too hopeful?) If she is approached with the respect due the office we might get answers...especially since she is saying she has had a change of heart concerning issues antithetical to Butler. I am only suggesting this since the mainstream media is not doing their job.

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atheist
One thing that I am wondering is: Did Jagad Guru Chris Butler arrange or order Tulsi's marriage to Eduardo Tamayo? I wonder how they met.??

The only reports I know of is that Butler does not usually arrange marriages but will if it serves his purposes. He is adamant about his followers only marrying into the cult. Initiates may only marry initiates. He did order Katyayani (Kathy Hoshijo) to have a fake marriage with a former policeman (cult member Larry Olsen) when she ran for office. This was to make single mom Hoshijo more electable. The brochures had lovely fake family photos on campaign flyers. So it is very possible that The Tamayo marriage was arranged.

If not arranged, followers from around the world would come to Hawaii to do service or consult with Butler. There was ample opportunity to meet at Butler's house, at kirtans, lectures or at any of the cult's business ventures ...from video production studios, chip factories, noni farms, to yoga classes. Since dating and sex outside of marriage are not allowed in the cult, probably the first good-looking, well-off devotee who was horny and had a pleasant personality could easily succomb to marriage after a few sparks started to fly. The basis of the marriage in the cult is only to serve guru and krishna. No sex is allowed except to have children that you are expected to offer up to Butler's alter and to be sent off to be brain washed in the Phillippines.

I am not sure if children of the elites were required to go to that school or not. I know VD's (Wai Lana, Butler's consort) kids were also a privledged lot. In fact, certain children in the cult were not even allowed to talk to them due to their exalted status. The cult has a heirarchical system. Probably only elites may marry elites.

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atheist
What is a wedding like within the cult???

The weddings that I have heard about were similar to the Hare Krishna's in that they have a fire sacrifice and leis and mantras. The only difference is that they don't wear saris and dhotis or have traditional Indian melodies and music. They have their own style. It's a party with food and dancing and chanting. I am sure the Gabbard's had guitar music and a big kirtan with big daddy KKD (Mike Gabbard) leading the chants.
Here's a video of a Hare Krishna wedding
Vedic Wedding Fire Sacrifice

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atheist
Does Jagad Guru Chris Butler also break up couples like some other cult leaders do????

Yes. He has been known to attempt to break up couples he felt were not suitable...usually someone not in the cult. Sometimes followers would fall in love with someone outside the cult in hopes of converting them. There are many stories like this. One involved a young woman who found a nice guy who became very sincere about serving, but Butler did not like him. He compared the woman to a "dog in heat" for wanting to marry after she had written for permission to do so. She wanted to marry and have a family but had not found anyone within the cult. She was devastated by Butler's cruel "so fucking what!" reaction. They had sold everything and moved to Hawaii to serve guru. He actually would not even allow this guy to accompany her selling his books door to door for her safety. He ended up doing janitorial work for free at one of Butler's businesses as his "service". They eventually left getting fed up with Butler's cruelty and jam sessions (continuous criticism). There are many other similar examples.

I do not know what the current practice is, but any one wanting to get married would write Butler for permission. Any big life decision was presented to gurufraud. The system seems to be handed over to his leutenants these days so he doesn't have to bother with micro-mananging his followers. He has plenty of dedicated bull dogs to do this work for him now.

There is also the story of the young lady on this forum who had an affair with a follower who was separated from his wife. A full blown scandal ensued and he was ordered to go back with his wife. He was a kid who had grown up in the cult and his whole family was involved so he did not have much choice.

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atheist
I read somewhere that Jagad Guru Chris Butler doesn't have a problem with men having more than one partner. Is this true? Does anyone know if there is any real practice of polygny (polygny is polygamy where a man has more than one wife) within the cult? What about within the larger Hare Krishna (ISKCON) movment???

From my interviews, Butler hated the practice. He would mock it and deride it. He said that people who engage in its practice are just men who want more sex gratification. After ACB published in one of his books that polygamy was okay, several of his diciples took on more than one wife. This bled over to Butler's group. The few couples that tried this all broke up. I know Butler refused to attend any of these weddings. I do not know if Butler attended any of his follower's weddings or not.

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atheist
We know that his Divine Grace A.C. Bhativedanta Prabhupada, who initiated Chris Butler, believed that women should be married young. I believe he is quoted as saying women should be married by age 16 and that 12 is not too young. What is the practice within the Science of Identity Foundation cult???

To my knowledge, Butler did not encourage young marriage. This may have changed, but I don't see his adult step-kids married. From lectures you get the idea that marriage is an inconvenient but neccessary pain. It's only use was to create more servants to perpetuate his cult. He derided the first generation of kids for not being pure enough. It seems he tightened the ropes on subsequent generations. If he doesn't see a use in a marriage or doesn't like someone he will encourage service and celibacy. Spouses and children just take away time and energy from Butler, so he is mostly against marriage.

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atheist
I know that Jagad Guru Chris Butler frowns upon divorce. Does anyone know if he is divorced himself? What happens to a devotee, such as Tulsi (perhaps), who divorces???

There is a rumor that Butler is divorced, but it may not have been a legal marriage back in the hippie days. For many exers this does not seem likely that he was ever married before Wai Lana. He did however, order the divorce of his follower Wai Lana so he could marry her himself in spite of the fact that he preached heavily against divorce! Remember, he thinks of himself as a pure devotee and the "Guru to the Whole Universe" so he can do anything he damn well pleases. My take is that he really doesn't care if anyone divorces or not as long as his money is rolling in. His propaganda booklet on the topic is just another fish hook to get more followers, but I doubt he believes a word he wrote. I am certain he has supported the divorce of a follower who is married to a "blasphemer" who wants to leave the cult.

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atheist
Does anybody have any idea how Chris Butler communicates with Mike Gabbard (Krishna Katha das) or with other devotees when they are in office? I'm guessing that Jagad Guru's positions are well-known to the politicians even before they are elected to office.??

Of course his positions are well laid out and dictated to followers before they run for office. In the case of the 1970's Independents for Godly Government Party, ALL of the people running for office were TOLD TO RUN! He was the puppet master behind all of the campaigns!!! Even Rick and Carter Reed were ordered to get into the District Attorney's office. This made it so Butler was privy to any information coming out of there! The old dog Prabhufraud Butler has been at this game for years. Rick Reed, Wayne Nishiki, Mike Gabbard, and several others would never have run for office without Butler's commands!!!! Back in the day, before cell phones and internet, they would meet at Butler's house or talk on the phone. Butler's lieutenants or loyal couriers would also deliver messages. Snail mail was also used to pass on bulky instructions and memos send by his secretaries. I am sure they use secured technology these days and personal servants. Butler is very smart and knows how to brush his footprints away.

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atheist
Does anybody think it is a good idea to have a reclusive guru, with some known wacky views, having a hidden influence on the politicians who are elected to represent them?

Evidently the people in Hawaii and their media don't seem to care one way or the other...or they just don't believe it to be possible or true. Unfortunately, it is true. Not only that, but it could border on treason.

Lectures : Srimad-Bhagavatam Lectures : Canto 1: Lectures : SB 1.8: Lectures : Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.8.51 -- Los Angeles, May 13, 1973 : 730513SB.LA :


SWAMI BHAKTIVEDANTA SAID ...So woman is protected in childhood by the father, and when she is grown-up girl, youth, although the father is ready to give her protection in every respect, but she has developed by that time sex desires. Under the circumstances, it is the duty of the father to hand over the girl to a nice young boy to take her protection. This is marriage. Kanyā-dāna. According to Vedic system, kanyā, means daughter, is given in charity. To find out a suitable... Practically, I'll say, in our childhood age, my sisters were married between nine to twelve years. My eldest sister was married when she was nine years old, before my birth. She is the eldest. And my second sister was married at the age of twelve, twelve years. And my third sister was married at the age of 11 years. So by the (indistinct) 12 years, the marriage must be finished. That was the duty of the father. I remember, because my second sister was going twelve years, my mother said to my father that "I shall go to the river and commit suicide. The daughter is not married." (laughter) You see. The father was very sorry, "Yes, I am trying. What can I do?" (laughter) And then next generation, when my... I was also married man, you know. I was married when my wife was only eleven years old. And at the age of fourteen years she gave birth to first child. And next generation, when my eldest daughter was married at the age of sixteen years-it is little increased-but I was also very much upset that the daughter is sixteen years old

dabcult, I guess that is the source of ACB's promotion of young marriage. Culturally it was the norm for him in those days as it is in many Muslim countries. It does not fly in western countries culturally or legally. Just because it is practiced, does not make it right. Pedophilia is no protection for women!!!

I have friends from India who talk about "modern arranged marriages". They had one where they actually got to choose from the pool of prospects paraded by parents. She is a well educated, articulate and very beautiful woman who has married late in life ~ 24 years old!!! Her husband is very successful and good looking. They live in a beautiful home with his parents and divorced sister. They are Hindus. They are considered very liberal. They do not consider these "Vedic" customs as adorable as ACB and have witnessed its many abuses in India!

The focus of this forum is on cult abuses. Butler was very critical and averse to marriage before he married. He claims that the only reason he got married was because he had so many female diciples from whom he needed protection. LOL! If he ever got into the business of arranging marriages it would be for business purposes only ($$$). He did not encourage young girls to marry because it is highly illegal in these United States and he makes sure he does not get in trouble with the law. (But doesn't mind benefiting from the illegal activities of followers. E.g., has taken money from known drug dealers). If his followers decided to practice it, I have not seen evidence of it (but that does not mean that it does not happen). Does anyone know if underage girls get married in the school in the Phillippines or elsewhere?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2012 12:03AM by Vera City.

dabcult's excellent video "Is Tulsi Gabbard a member of Chris Butler 'Jagad Guru Siddhaswarupananda paramahamsa'CULT?" has been removed from YouTube.

The message that you get is: "This video has been removed because its content violated YouTube's Terms of Service.
Sorry about that."

What I witnessed in the 80's was that Butler was pushing for young girls to
be marginally educated away from the mainstream schools and kept away from society.
They were also encouraged to consider marriage early on, usually as soon as it was legal to
do so and not break any local laws.
Regardless of whether or not they were ready for marriage and children, this is what was
pushed onto the girls. It came about that if the girls started to become sexually aware ( or active) then they were sent off to the school in the Philippines to "cool"
them off. Presumably they were segregated down there as that was the case in the cult in Oahu as well. The parents usually decided who they were to marry and so in that respect I guess you could say there were some "arranged" marriages. What was even more troubling was the fact that there were men in this cult who actually believed and wanted more than one wife.
I heard this on several occasions. I always thought that this was sheer arrogance on the part of those men.
Usually what this meant was there would be more children. And no man taking financial responsibility for the 2nd family. Legally you could only claim one wife and one family. Which is where the welfare fraud came into play. It was inconceivable that this bizarre notion had any redeeming qualities to it at all other than sheer selfishness, especially in this day and age.
Yes it is true that people had to go to Butler to ask about getting married to another person, and if he thought it was a good idea, and, in some way would benefit him, then he would give his approval. Most of the marriages seemed to have failed as there existed rampant cheating
and failures of marriage that took place.
You had a group of extremely unhappy and dysfunctional people who had no idea they had been brainwashed. They were stressed out, malnourished, overworked & underpaid.
They had surrendered their critical thinking skills and their freedoms for the glory of one person. In essence they were all living a lie. At the center of this was the biggest liar of all, Butler. I guess that is where the cult members learned to lie, where they all learned to lie, for their master. That is why there is so much secrecy.
Its all a horrible sham, but one in which there are real possibilities for lives to be ruined.
There were affairs, there were divorces, there were suicides and deaths.
And now after many attempts to try and control the political arena in Hawaii, Butler offers up Tulsi, with yet more lies?

PS: Dabcult- repost your video- do not let them win. Burn some copies and mail them out to Tulsi's supporters. They cannot run from the truth.

Vera City, thanks for your very informative response.

I have a comment and a question (and there may be more):

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Vera City
. . . since the mainstream media is not doing their job.

This is a tough story for the media to cover. Much of the story is so crazy and outlandish. I think that is an obstacle. Also the story is complex, with all of the strange names like "Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa." We are also dealing with exotic religious ideas, such as karma and reincarnation, which are not well known or understood by Americans or American reporters.

Jagad Guru Chris Butler is a total recluse, so it is not like we have this crazy guy out there making statements. This guy is mostly invisible.

I think the press is very reluctant to go after or criticize anyone's religion. Having a religion is a strong societal value. The press also doesn't like to give cults publicity.

There's a good chance, that, by now, the Science of Identity Foundation cult has their own people in the media or controlling what is in the media. We know that they are interested in media. Remember the "Valley Isle," published by Rick Reed on Maui. That newspaper was instrumental in their "Independents for Godly Government" political party adventure. People like Wayne Nishiki were reporters for the "Valley Isle." The cult-run Down to Earth Stores sponsored Mike Gabbard's anti LGBT "Let's Talk Straight, Hawaii" radio program. Down to Earth also sponsored Hesh Goldstein's "Health Talk" radio program in its early years. "Health Talk" is still broadcast weekly in Honolulu.

When I first heard about Mike Gabbard, Chris Butler and the Science of Identity Foundation cult, I had just finished reading "Monkey on a Stick: Murder, Madness and the Hare Krishnas," by John Huber and Lindsey Gruson.

I could see the Gabbard-Butler-Science of Identity Foundation story being a book, a documentary, a film, an article in The Atlantic or Harper's, etc. Hello out there! I actually tried to reach John Huber . . . He probably had his fill after doing "Monkey on a Stick."

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Vera City
No sex is allowed except to have children that you are expected to offer up to Butler's alter and to be sent off to be brain washed in the Phillippines.

The Wikipedia article on Tulsi Gabbard says: "Tulsi was homeschooled through high school, with the exception of two years spent at an all-girls missionary academy in the Philippines."

I think we all have some idea who might have run this school. Do you, or does anyone, have an idea what the name of this school is or was?

I believe that in the Philippines, Jagad Guru Chris Butler's cult is known as "Chaitanya Mission."

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atheist
This is a tough story for the media to cover. Much of the story is so crazy and outlandish. I think that is an obstacle. Also the story is complex, with all of the strange names like "Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa." We are also dealing with exotic religious ideas, such as karma and reincarnation, which are not well known or understood by Americans or American reporters.

Jagad Guru Chris Butler is a total recluse, so it is not like we have this crazy guy out there making statements. This guy is mostly invisible.

I think the press is very reluctant to go after or criticize anyone's religion. Having a religion is a strong societal value. The press also doesn't like to give cults publicity.

I agree. As far as I know there hasn't been a major expose of the group since the article in the 70's divulging the initiated names of every Independents for Godly Government candidate and their relationship with Butler. If Prabhufraud can get people in the DA's office, why not the media?

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atheist
The Wikipedia article on Tulsi Gabbard says: "Tulsi was homeschooled through high school, with the exception of two years spent at an all-girls missionary academy in the Philippines."

I think we all have some idea who might have run this school. Do you, or does anyone, have an idea what the name of this school is or was?

I believe that in the Philippines, Jagad Guru Chris Butler's cult is known as "Chaitanya Mission."

Ah, so the elite do go to the school in the PI. ...."missionary academy".... LOL! What a crock! That's probably where she met Tomayo then. The school has been located in Cebu City. The press should ask her about that school, what was taught, and why she spent only two years there.

I just finish reading the book of Dr Willis Butler ..."BARBARA memoire of a love affair"

I think that what Dr Butler wrote on page 352...is most interesting .

At the time mother of Chris Butler had just pass away and Dr Butler invited Chris over the phone to come to a memorial in the honor Barbara.

Chris told Dr Butler that "I probably wont come,I am not much for partying "(his own words )

Dr Butler continue..."My interpretation was that Chris would not care for an event at which he would not be the center of attention with stately entrance

and much bowing down over folded hands..ext ...Was I unjust ?(to think like that )

I think that Dr Butler a wonderfull man that work and serve the poorest of the poor in Salma ..Alabama during the civil right mouvement

the poors of Mexico ....and the poors of MOLOKAI

the man that the HAWAII media of the time called the RED doctor of Molokai (for his socialist and communist affiliations)

must have had a good laught...withnessing his son delusions of grandeur

DR Butler obviously tought that the "MR Univers demand for the bowing down thing was way over the TOP .....an ego trip .

Barbara and Mr Butler..organise and trained black peoples in Salma and Montgommery ALABAMA....so that protesters could get immediate medical help for injuries that the police was inflicted on them .

They where even chase by the KLU KLUX KLAN at one point in their automobile.

Barbara and Willis where life long pacifist ....the very first to organise protest againts the Vietnam war in HAWAII
(only 5 people where at he first protest ....and Barbara and Willis where 2 of them )

Mr Butler told the US goverment when he was called to go to the KOREAN WAR....

that he belong to 300 subversive groups in the UNITED STATE ....and would simply no go to the Korean war (and he did not go )

He rejoice when the CUBAN revolution took place .....eventually visiting Cuba with Barbara (againts the permission of the USA)

He hated REGAN and its policies of murders in central America.

A truly remarquable man and women.........of the left .....far left

It is clear to me after reading this book that wherever " Mr UNIVERS" got his hatred for the homosexual community

HE DID NOT get it from the exemple of his mother and father that where lover of humanity ...from all races ,colors or genders .

How did a surfer bum from the NORTH SHORE become so "HOMOPHOBIC" ?? The answer must have its origin in the teachings of Swami Bhaktivedanta

who had no problems calling homosexual ...sinfull..demoniac..immoral ....lower than animals human beings

But in real life Swami Bhaktivedanta initiated hundreds of homosexual diciples....(he was so naive and old fashion that he could not tell who was what? ) (Or maybee he was so compassionate that he gave everyone an opportunity to serve KRISHNA )

It is also surprising that Chris Butler coming from a famaly that was so ANTI WAR ....socialist ...sympatiser of Communist Fidel Castro

would now send TULSI GABBARD...the daughter of his diciples MIKE and Carol GABBARD in the army .

HE MUST BE A BASTARD SON

Swami Bhaktivedanta sent at least a dozen of his diciples to India in the mid 60 ies ...so they could avoid going to Vietnam ...

I smell treachery ......brainwashing ...back room politics to create a new 'MANCHURIAN" candidate ...that will bring glories to" MR UNIVERS "

PS...DR Butler mention at the beginning of the book that BARBARA had a healthy and "insatiable" appetite for sex .
"without it we would not know about "Mr Univers"

As far as the TULSI video we are talking with our lawyer....

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corboy
ELECTION TO PUBLIC OFFICE BRINGS INCREASED ACCOUNTABILITY AND SCRUTINY

Will tell you that if one is elected to public office, one can no longer control one's environment.

Crises come up. One has to answer to constituents, answer to reporters.

Beyond a point, one cannot in public office, hide out behind one's entourage or behind staff members. Staff members will take the rap for you up to a point, but eventually, they become fed up.

Even if one is elected to public office and finds ways to staff an office mostly with those who share one's background and belief system, there are others working in the statehouse who have been there a long time.

Those others at the statehouse have powerbases of their own. They will see you and your entourage coming and going at all hours.

You cannot scare or fire them. Guards and janitors see plenty, too. There is an infinity of ways to leak information to journalists.

These old timers know what is normal culture in the statehouse (or in city hall, whatever city you get elected to). They will be quick to resent being shut out or shoved aside.

And, lobbyists will have been at the statehouse for a long time. They remain while various officeholders come and go. They know what is normal culture vs abnormal for the statehouse. They cannot be scared off, either.

Corboy, you have given some great hints here. You Hawaii folks have some work to do...

dabcult, sorry your video was taken down. Keep trying.

Can someone tell me why the last 2 times i wrote for this forum (in the last 48 hours ).....IT DOES NOT appear ...or show up on the forum pages

Why ?? ..Who is controlling what is to be posted or not posted on this forum??

Why am I not receiving a private email explaining what I said wrong ? Do I expose to much the sins of Chris Butler or his guru ?