I don't believe that Aish is trying to do anything wrong but they have in effect, torn apart familes and they have very little in the way of success with Chozrim Bitshuvah's. America has freedom of religion. I am not a secularist. I believe in G-d but I don't believe in what is maintained to be absolute truth in any of the modern religions of the world. I believe we can all do better than this.[/quote]
Aish has, "in effect, torn apart families?"
Maybe you could be more specific.
We can always all do better in terms of our relationship with G-d. And, having delved into a great deal of religion, philosophy and history during my short life, I have not been able to "do better" than observing Torah and mitzvos.
It's certainly not for everyone - as is self evident over the last 3,000 years of history. However, Torah observant Judaism has also certainly been "a keeper" for the last 3,000 years.
It works.[/quote]
Torah observant Judaism is on the wane as is Christianity. People are leaving both. While I'm not saying that a person from a kosher home should go out and eat pork roast, I'm also saying that in the majority of cases, the Baal Teshuvah movement doesn't work. I was a BT many years ago and my ex-wife and I both had issues with our families because we felt they weren't observant enough.
When I was a child, I chided my parents for their "lack of religiosity." I told my folks that Judaism is a system and you can't pick and choose what you want to do, you have to do everything. Years later, I went to Yeshivat D'var Yerushalahim and the bochrim told me the same thing. I simply didn't have the energy to do all of that and I think that Orthodox Judaism lacks standards and can be very confusing.
I am a fairly bright guy and I have pretty high IQ. Furthermore, my ability to reason based on the English language is anywhere between the 95th percentile and the 100 %ile and I couldn't figure out what God really wanted from me when I was a BT. Eventually, I stopped being a BT and now I dont' keep kosher or the Sabbath. In fact I am involved with Christianity and I believe that God wants me to be doing that and nothing else.
My relationship with God is much more based on Christianity than Judaism. In this board, we aren't allowed to preach so I won't. I have an extensive secular as well as religious education and I believe that many BTs have had problems getting and holding jobs. Combining Torah, or religion in general with a solid vocation is a good thing. If you can do both.
But there are many things in the Torah that I am glad we don't handle it that way any more like killing people for lighting fires on Shabbat. Do you want to go back to that? I don't.

Aish has, "in effect, torn apart families?"
Maybe you could be more specific.
We can always all do better in terms of our relationship with G-d. And, having delved into a great deal of religion, philosophy and history during my short life, I have not been able to "do better" than observing Torah and mitzvos.
It's certainly not for everyone - as is self evident over the last 3,000 years of history. However, Torah observant Judaism has also certainly been "a keeper" for the last 3,000 years.
It works.[/quote]
I also have studied philosophy, history and religion. In fact I got A's in virtually every course I took in college and have a Master of Science in Management degree from Boston U and Ben Gurion U of the Negev's Joint Program in Beer Sheba many years ago. I have worked in a variety of managerial capacities since then and I have a number of hobbies like making rubber toys, playing the guitar and writing human interest pieces.
If you want to talk about tzedukah, I'm into it too. If you want to promote teachings of love and peace which the modern world desparately needs, I am all ears.
But the final results of the BT movement don't indicate much of a long term success. My ex-wife came from a more "observant home" than mine, hence she still keeps more Torah and mitzvot than I do. I spent 5 years in Christianity as a teenager and I went back to it, because I find want I want there including love, warmth, comfort, succor and respect. Chabad turned me into a joke and I have resented it highly especially considering how they made me a story in one of their books. ("Hank and the Hebrew Christians" in Confessions of a Jewish Cultbuster).

richardmgreen,
I understand that you are disenchanted with Judaism. And, I understand that you believe that religion is "dying away," as it were.
However, I still fail to comprehend why anyone would think Aish had cult like tendencies and how it has "torn families apart."
You did not address that in your explanation of your beliefs as to why being a bal t'shuva didn't work for you...

Moishe3rd:

See [www.culteducation.com]

This is a fairly typical complaints about Aish. I have received quite a few similar complaints.

[b:39881c7df4]The Pain of One Jewish Mother--a cautionary personal story

June 1998 [/b:39881c7df4]

In May of 1994 my 21 year old son graduated from a prestigious business school. In September of 1994 he started Law School at our state university, finishing his first year in May of 1995 on the Dean's List. The first year of law school was very demanding and I encouraged him to take a trip during the summer. He chose to go to Israel, and decided to help pay his way by working in an army program for several weeks and to spend the rest of the time touring Israel and the surrounding countries.
Our religious background is Conservative and Reform Judaism. My son attended religious school, was Bar Mitzvah and then confirmed at the end of the tenth grade. I was enthusiastic about his trip to Israel--where it seemed things he had learned about his heritage would come alive.

While he was in Israel he was approached at the Western Wall by a man named Jeff Seidel--who asked him if he would like to have a "Shabbat (Sabbath) experience" with a Jewish family? My son trustingly said yes and was pulled into an experience that I believe included psychological techniques akin to "brainwashing"--designed to ultimately encourage him to leave his family and choose an isolated lifestyle within a closed community in Israel as an ultra-Orthodox Jew.

Jeff Seidel introduced my son to an organization named "Aish HaTorah", whose mission seems to include influencing Reform and Conservative Jewish young people to become ultra-Orthodox. This organization often targets Jewish youth traveling without their parents in Israel. They slowly lure them step-by-step into a radically different lifestyle--they (e.g. Mr. Seidel) never really fully disclosed the actual intent of their ultimate mission.

"Aish" [Ha Torah] begins by having lessons, which are attended by both young men and women to discuss general topics about Judaism. These initial topics discuss the happiness of being one of "God's Chosen People" and are not controversial. The young person is often paired with another who has already been indoctrinated and that person may be instructed to become friends with the newcomer. The discussions gradually separate the men from the women--after these friendships have been developed the more serious indoctrination into the concept of "The True Torah" begins. Young people are often encouraged to change their way of dress to conform to their new "friends"--although they are told they do not have to change their dress "until they are ready". The clear implication is that--they will eventually be "ready".

At the end of the summer, my son called and said he did not want to return to law school--a goal he had set for himself and discussed for many years, but instead he now wanted to stay a while in Israel to "study Judaism". I did everything I could to get him to return home, but he was being told by Aish's rabbis--"God" was more important to his future than his parents. By the time I could get to Israel, during December of 1995, I found my son dressed in a long black coat and hat, with a long beard--who could only talk about one topic--"THE TORAH". I could not convince him to return home.

It gets worse. In 1996 the people at Aish influenced my son to move to an ultra-Orthodox community called B'nai Brach--to study with another rabbi. He was submerged in a group entirely focused on liturgy and study of ultra-Orthodox without any other feedback. My previously gregarious son stopped listening to any kind of music and would not talk about anything except religion. At one point he became ill and the people in B'nai Brach did not even bother to take him to a physician--he eventually had to go to an emergency room where they refused to care for him. Luckily his illness was not serious. He stayed in B'nai Brach until April of 1997. And except for the fact that I managed to have him call me once a week--he was entirely under the influence of this community. I cannot tell you what it was like to see my son, who once explored and questioned, parroting the words he had obviously memorized without critically thought or evaluation.

In April of 1996 I convinced my son to come home for a one-month visit--promising that I would send him back. When our family saw him we all became extremely concerned. He had a vacant look in his eyes; he was unkempt, extremely thin and had a skin condition that covered his entire body. Again--he spoke of nothing but religion and was intent about convincing us--that what he had learned was the absolute truth and that there was no other way to see anything. We decided we must do something so his father contacted Rick Ross.

After a five-day intervention my son agreed to stay in the U.S.--after a brief visit back in Israel to collect his things. I was frightened and tried to convince him not to return to Israel--thinking he might not come back. But he did return to the United States. He did not abandon the beliefs of rather ultra-Orthodox Judaism. But he now studies at an accredited yeshiva (school) in the U.S. He has improved. His health is better and after much psychological counseling--he has toned-down his fanaticism.

He admits he was brainwashed in Israel, but still believes that just because he was brainwashed doesn't make what they told him untrue. The rabbi here is much more moderate and has gotten him to trim his beard and look more normal. He seems to be happy, but I worry that some day he will wake up and realize that he has abandoned his dreams and aspirations--for the desires and direction of others who have influenced him (i.e. ultra-Orthodox groups). And that by then it may be too late for him to change.

I had given my children training to avoid cults, but never thought to warn them that they needed to be aware of Jewish cults in Israel. Although I am resigned to my son choosing a very different lifestyle than mine, I feel it is a loss. My child can never travel with me, eat in my home--or really be a part of the rest of our family and friends. The hardest part is now I know that this is not what my son actually planned for himself, but rather the direct result of how he was influenced through what began as a vacation trip to Israel.

My earnest hope is that by sharing my personal story--other Jewish parents and families might be more prepared and advise their children accordingly. They need to know about ultra-Orthodox proselytizing in Israel. Specifically--what may be waiting for them at the Western Wall--or to beware of invitations by seemingly friendly Jews who ask them to attend "Shabbat" dinners. Such dinners may include a hidden agenda.

Quote
rrmoderator
Moishe3rd:

See [www.culteducation.com]

This is a fairly typical complaints about Aish. I have received quite a few similar complaints.

[b:80908042b5]The Pain of One Jewish Mother--a cautionary personal story

June 1998 [/b:80908042b5]

....
While he was in Israel he was approached at the Western Wall by a man named Jeff Seidel--who asked him if he would like to have a "Shabbat (Sabbath) experience" with a Jewish family? My son trustingly said yes and was pulled into an experience that I believe included psychological techniques akin to "brainwashing"--designed to ultimately encourage him to leave his family and choose an isolated lifestyle within a closed community in Israel as an ultra-Orthodox Jew.

This is her belief system and her projection via her dissatisfaction with Orthodox Judaism.
It is possible that there are twisted people in the Torah observant world who have some sort of "nefarious" brainwashing plan leading people in a step by step process to join some kind of cult. However, as "Jeff Seidel" fades out of the picture and is replaced by a succession of completely different people, unless they are all involved in this "plot," then her "brainwashing" scenario does not hold water.

Quote

Jeff Seidel introduced my son to an organization named "Aish HaTorah", whose mission seems to include influencing Reform and Conservative Jewish young people to become ultra-Orthodox. This organization often targets Jewish youth traveling without their parents in Israel. They slowly lure them step-by-step into a radically different lifestyle--they (e.g. Mr. Seidel) never really fully disclosed the actual intent of their ultimate mission.

The "mission" of all Torah observant Jews is to influence non observant Jews to more closely observe the Laws and practices of Judaism. This is neither a "secret" nor is it "nefarious."
And, yes, we do live a radically different lifestyle than most non-observant Jews and most of the human race in general. We dress differently; we eat different foods; and we tend to isolate ourselves more from the general community. We do indeed engage in ancient "cultic" practices. However, there are clearly laid out reasons for all of this which are available for literally anyone to investigate and research. These particular practices and this particular religion is the oldest surviving organized religion on Earth and one might, just might, inquire as to why this is so as opposed to blanketly condemning and slandering what one does not understand and what one has absolutely no interest in understanding.
Aish HaTorah is a completely above board organization which offers absolutely no compulsion whatsoever. Her charges are ludicrous.

Quote

"Aish" [Ha Torah] begins by having lessons, which are attended by both young men and women to discuss general topics about Judaism.

I am taking this step by step, because you, rr, appear to be claiming that this "process" is "brainwashing or otherwise "wrong.'
So far, so good.

Quote

These initial topics discuss the happiness of being one of "God's Chosen People" and are not controversial.

What the !!!?? "Being one of G-d's Chosen People" is NOT controversial?
It would seem that one's innate prejudices are in play here. The fact that this women is Jewish and accepts the idea that she is one of G-d's Chosen people, which the majority of the human race rejects and that people who are extremely worried about cults would find ridiculous, is apparently of no account to this woman.
I find that exceedingly biased and inaccurate on her part.

Quote

The young person is often paired with another who has already been indoctrinated and that person may be instructed to become friends with the newcomer.

Objection! The word "indoctrinated" is prejudicial and without substance, Your Honor. Request to have it stricken from the record!

Quote

The discussions gradually separate the men from the women--after these friendships have been developed the more serious indoctrination into the concept of "The True Torah" begins.

OH MY G-D!! THEY SEPARATE MEN FROM WOMEN IN ORTHODOX JUDAISM! Didn't see that one coming... What an odd "cultic" practice.
"Serious indoctrination" Objection!

Quote

Young people are often encouraged to change their way of dress to conform to their new "friends"--although they are told they do not have to change their dress "until they are ready". The clear implication is that--they will eventually be "ready".

Yes, and... this is a problem... why?

Quote

At the end of the summer, my son called and said he did not want to return to law school--a goal he had set for himself and discussed for many years, but instead he now wanted to stay a while in Israel to "study Judaism". I did everything I could to get him to return home, but he was being told by Aish's rabbis--"God" was more important to his future than his parents.

Herein lies the difficulty.
If one does, indeed, believe in G-d and believe that G-d gave the Torah to the Jews on Mt. Sinai, then, of course G-d is more important than ____ .
If one puts "G-d" in quotation marks, indicating their own disbelief or uncertainty of His existence and influence, then one is going to be mightily ticked off if one chooses to follow G-d than follow the dictates of their previous life.
I am going to gloss over the rest of this letter as this is the crux of the matter.
The mother in question here acknowledges that her son still wishes to pursue being a Torah observant Jew even out of the "clutches of the Aish people," and that she can deal with it better because he looks more normal and is eating okay....
Well, yeah... She sounds like a concerned mother. "Don't be a slob. Take care of your health. Eat... Eat..."
This is good.
This mother will, or perhaps already has, come around to realize the error of her ways when she attends her grandson's bar mitzvah or perhaps wedding amongst a group of his peers who have never used drugs; believe in the sanctity of marriage and sex; and who do not care to know who Britney Spears or any icon of the entertainment world is or what they are doing.
Right now, her hysterical account of Aish's nefarious brainwashing agenda is unfounded; unsubstantiated; and untrue.
If her son were to actually have treated her in the manner that she filtered through her prejudicial attitudes, then he would have been severely admonished by his rabbis as the fact is: "Honor your Mother and Father" is one of the "biggies" in the World of Mitzvos and Torah.
He obviously is "honoring" her in that he is trying to accede to her fears and concerns without abandoning what he believes to be what G-d commands him to do...
I humbly submit that this letter, in all of its biases and misconceptions, proves that Aish DOES NOT "tear families apart."

Sorry, just a bit more.
I went to the website you provided, thank you very much, for "Jeff Seidel."
I saw his video on inviting young Jews from the Western Wall to celebrate Shabbos.
I thoroughly approve.
It is posted on the internet EXACTLY what his intentions are and why he is doing this.
How can you claim this man is part of a "cult."
Besides which, none of the rest of us "cult members" would think much of him as he wears a leather kippah (yarmulke), a no-no in Israel for Orthodox Jews; dresses in regular clothes, tisk tisk; and has no beard...
Where did this woman's son get all of his "bizarre" attire and looks from if Seidel was part of the "cult" that kidnapped him...
Everything is not a cult and everything is not brainwashing.
I must admit that I find the somewhat hysterical insistence that Orthodox Jews are "cultists" because of all the various things mentioned, just plain ignorant and wacky.
It makes me look upon this forum and its inspirations as rather cult-like as y'all seek to blame all of one's personal disappointments and difficulties on someone else because you do not understand them or believe what they believe...
Nobody finds that odd?

Moishe3rd:

Your attempt to blame a Jewish mother for the pain caused by unwarranted proselytizing isn't a meaningful response to the situation.

Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Jews don't egage in targeting Orthodox or Hasidic Jews in recruitment schemes.

Seidel does cooperate closely with Aish and his invitation to dinner isn't really just about dinner. It's ultimately a "bait and switch" approach to feed American Jews visiting Israel into groups like Aish.

Seidel is a recruiter.

This technique of inviting potential recruits to a "dinner" is also used by the Unification Church, once called the "Moonies."

It's sad to see a Jewish group using the same technique as a group commonly called a "cult."

No one has said Aish is a "cult" though.

But I have received very serious complaints from Jewish families about Aish and the Chabad Lubavitch. And some Jewish families have been torn apart by their recruitment and retention practices.

Please understand that this board is not the place to preach.

The focus here is upon behavior not belief.

The point is that the behavior of Aish, Seidel and Chabad has hurt many Jewish families. And attempting to rationaize this behavior by claiming the "ends justify the means" is also not a meaningful response.

Quote
rrmoderator
Moishe3rd:

Your attempt to blame a Jewish mother for the pain caused by unwarranted proselytizing isn't a meaningful response to the situation.

Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist Jews don't egage in targeting Orthodox or Hasidic Jews in recruitment schemes.

"unwarranted" would be a prejudicial term on your part. It basically means "indefensible:' or incapable of being justified or explained.
You believe that it is "warranted" to claim that Aish HaTorah "tears apart families." I consider that accusation "unwarranted." You have thus far shown no evidence that Aish "tears apart families."
Proselytizing basically means trying to convert someone to your point of view. One can certainly claim that you are proselytizing people to be suspicious of all things religious or spiritual. You are certainly trying to convert people to the point of view that "the behavior of Aish, Seidel and Chabad has hurt many Jewish families."
The question remains - is your attempt to convert people to your belief system unwarranted?
The answer is a resounding NO. This is your website. Your forum. And you can and should be able to convert or persuade people to the point of view that you espouse in your world. Great! You should live and be well.
However, to blame Seidel or Aish or Chabad or any other Torah observant Jew for a Jewish mother's pain at the idea that her son is becoming part of a 3,000 year old tradition at the place where people go to become part of that 3,000 year old tradition in the manner that people have always grown closer to that same 3,000 year old tradition - seems the equivalent of me trying to tell you to stop preaching on your website that Everything that you do not understand is a Cult!

Quote

Seidel does cooperate closely with Aish and his invitation to dinner isn't really just about dinner. It's ultimately a "bait and switch" approach to feed American Jews visiting Israel into groups like Aish.

Bait and Switch?
Bait and Switch?
I think not.
Perhaps you could explain your rather glib use of this prejudicial term as it applies to this situation.

Quote

Seidel is a recruiter.

As are we all...

Quote

This technique of inviting potential recruits to a "dinner" is also used by the Unification Church, once called the "Moonies."

It's sad to see a Jewish group using the same technique as a group commonly called a "cult."

Now, I realize that I am about to lose any chance of posting in this website ever again - but, you are absolutely clueless.
You have Zero knowledge of what you are attempting to explain or make an analogy to...
For the sake of the minuscule chance that perhaps you might understand how incredibly twisted your opinions are, I will attempt to explain:
Inviting Jews, especially strangers, to a Shabbos meal is considered a Commandment from G-d. It's what we do. Every week. Every year. Day in and Day out. All the time.
There is a teaching that one is allowed to doubt whether a person is really Jewish or not if they do not perform the mitzvah of hospitality, because that is what Avraham Avinu, the Founder of Judaism (Abraham) did - He invited people to come and eat with him.
If you do not invite strangers to a Shabbos meal, then you invite friends that you already know. Either way, it's what we do.
To compare this 3,000 year old practice to the Moonies is really sad on your part. It demonstrates a certain very willing ignorance and the desire to lump everything into one big mishmosh that you choose to call cults.
It really is sad.

Quote

No one has said Aish is a "cult" though.

Nope. It was said it "tears apart families." I have yet to see any evidence that this is true.

B

Quote

ut I have received very serious complaints from Jewish families about Aish and the Chabad Lubavitch. And some Jewish families have been torn apart by their recruitment and retention practices.

Explain "retention" practices. The above letter seems to be missing that factor.

Quote

Please understand that this board is not the place to preach.

The focus here is upon behavior not belief.

The point is that the behavior of Aish, Seidel and Chabad has hurt many Jewish families. And attempting to rationaize this behavior by claiming the "ends justify the means" is also not a meaningful response.

I have not read anything yet, other than unsubstantiated claims, that shows how the behavior of these organizations you mention is coercive or brainwashing or otherwise untoward.
I have read a great deal here about people's beliefs regarding the invalidity of the Torah; or the similarity between a Shabbos meal and the Moonies; or how G-d should not take precedence over Law School; or other such beliefs. But I have yet to read about inappropriate behavior regarding Orthodox Judaism.
(And, a caveat - there is plenty of inappropriate behavior by so called Orthodox Jews- most of it falling on the side of not practicing what is preached, but there is also inappropriate coercion and other unpleasantness - usually from the parents to their children. This is not good and is wrong. But I have thus far seen no evidence of that in the scenarios you are claiming or describing).

"Why the Jewish Outreach Organizations Succeed"

For the same reason of why if you go out in the amazonian jungle naked, you're going to catch malaria.

Don't expose yourself.

The world are full of parasites, emotional, physical, some both. Some feel the need to excise and mutilate physically for their emotional satisfaction.

I here piprazine is an excellent solution for ridding the canine of worms. Get some piprazine Richard. Metaphorical piprazine. And I say this in a friendly manner.