Why the Jewish Outreach Organizations Succeed
Posted by:
jaim
()
Date: June 22, 2007 10:26PM
Moderator, you write:
"You have offered a series of false arguments and attempted to ignore the main point"
Can you point out which false arguments these are?
Also you write:
"The efforts of ultra-Orthodox and some Orthodox Jews to recruit Reform and Conservative Jews is a recent development witout previous precedent. "
I disagree. Orthodox Jews in general continue to avoid recruitment. The development which took place was the increase of a population of Baal Tshuva, secular Jews who returned to Orthodox life. This development, which has its roots in the post WWII events, led to a new population of Orthodox Jews, always a minority, which started reaching out to other family members an so on, from there it developed. A sharp increase in this situation occured after Chabad truely began an active campaign of recruitment, still wen the last Rabbi was alive. Chabad is largely formed from Baalei Tshuva.
So there are no real efforts of historically orthodox Jews to seriuosly develop recruitment. That is one point.
Until recently, there was practically no reform Judaism at all. This is quite a recent development itself. I do not know if they (reform Jews) recruit, but secular Jews do.
You ask for links. Would Hebrew links be appropriate or in any way helpful?
I sent you a private message, apparently you did not receive it. Basically, one of the things I wrote there is that I, myself, recruited Orthodox Jews to a Kabbalah Cult that I, myself, helped form.
The recruitment systems we used were not our own, we copied what we saw being done.
I also wrote that in Israel recruitment of orthodox Jews by secular Jews is common, thus the reason I am confused by you not knowing of this.
Please consider that normally Orthodox Jews will not go seeking help from organizations such as yours (sadly enough, I may say), but I would expect you to understand that this is a two way road.
What you write:
"I am not aware of any "secular," Reform or Conservative Jewish family that has cut off their child because that child became Orthodox." is likewise unbelievable. Perhaps you have not had a personal experience such as that, but do you truely feel this does not happen regularly?
Regarding what you wrote:
"Do you support ignoring a parent's rights regarding the determination of religious training for their own minor children?"
Look, not only was I in a cult, I formed one. I had to go through hell to leave and help others leave, and I am 100% against any attempt at contacting a minor for anything, without parental consent. We play for the same team, be sure of that. I spend quite a bit of time admonishing people to take a good look at who is trying to sell them what doctrine and why.
Nonetheless, my point, which you seem to avoid is simple. Do Orthodox Jews, at least some of them, use unacceptable recruiting systems? Absolutely. Is it fair to imagine secular Jews do the same? Obviously.
I remind you that 5 years ago during Israeli elections 10% of the ENTIRE POPULATION of Israel, voted for a party whose philosophy was openly: fight Orthodox Jews until they exist no more. You must understand, with such an enormous amount of people having such an all out agressively negative opinion against this establishment, that obviously some will engage in cultlike activities seeking to recruit Orthodox.
Perhaps this does not occur in the US, or that you are not yet aware of it, but truely, I even feel strange having to convince you it does.
And on a side note: writing that my accusations are false is not the way to go. You could have written they were wrong and asked me to prove them like you did here.
"You have offered a series of false arguments and attempted to ignore the main point"
Can you point out which false arguments these are?
Also you write:
"The efforts of ultra-Orthodox and some Orthodox Jews to recruit Reform and Conservative Jews is a recent development witout previous precedent. "
I disagree. Orthodox Jews in general continue to avoid recruitment. The development which took place was the increase of a population of Baal Tshuva, secular Jews who returned to Orthodox life. This development, which has its roots in the post WWII events, led to a new population of Orthodox Jews, always a minority, which started reaching out to other family members an so on, from there it developed. A sharp increase in this situation occured after Chabad truely began an active campaign of recruitment, still wen the last Rabbi was alive. Chabad is largely formed from Baalei Tshuva.
So there are no real efforts of historically orthodox Jews to seriuosly develop recruitment. That is one point.
Until recently, there was practically no reform Judaism at all. This is quite a recent development itself. I do not know if they (reform Jews) recruit, but secular Jews do.
You ask for links. Would Hebrew links be appropriate or in any way helpful?
I sent you a private message, apparently you did not receive it. Basically, one of the things I wrote there is that I, myself, recruited Orthodox Jews to a Kabbalah Cult that I, myself, helped form.
The recruitment systems we used were not our own, we copied what we saw being done.
I also wrote that in Israel recruitment of orthodox Jews by secular Jews is common, thus the reason I am confused by you not knowing of this.
Please consider that normally Orthodox Jews will not go seeking help from organizations such as yours (sadly enough, I may say), but I would expect you to understand that this is a two way road.
What you write:
"I am not aware of any "secular," Reform or Conservative Jewish family that has cut off their child because that child became Orthodox." is likewise unbelievable. Perhaps you have not had a personal experience such as that, but do you truely feel this does not happen regularly?
Regarding what you wrote:
"Do you support ignoring a parent's rights regarding the determination of religious training for their own minor children?"
Look, not only was I in a cult, I formed one. I had to go through hell to leave and help others leave, and I am 100% against any attempt at contacting a minor for anything, without parental consent. We play for the same team, be sure of that. I spend quite a bit of time admonishing people to take a good look at who is trying to sell them what doctrine and why.
Nonetheless, my point, which you seem to avoid is simple. Do Orthodox Jews, at least some of them, use unacceptable recruiting systems? Absolutely. Is it fair to imagine secular Jews do the same? Obviously.
I remind you that 5 years ago during Israeli elections 10% of the ENTIRE POPULATION of Israel, voted for a party whose philosophy was openly: fight Orthodox Jews until they exist no more. You must understand, with such an enormous amount of people having such an all out agressively negative opinion against this establishment, that obviously some will engage in cultlike activities seeking to recruit Orthodox.
Perhaps this does not occur in the US, or that you are not yet aware of it, but truely, I even feel strange having to convince you it does.
And on a side note: writing that my accusations are false is not the way to go. You could have written they were wrong and asked me to prove them like you did here.
Why the Jewish Outreach Organizations Succeed
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: June 22, 2007 10:46PM
Jaim:
Repeating the same false arguments doesn't make them meaningful.
You point out that cults recruit Jews, but that is not the topic of this thread.
The topic of this thread is "Jewish Outreach Organizations," which here is used as essentially a euphemism for recruitment efforts by ultra-Orthodox and some Orthodox Jews that often proselytize Reform and Conservative Jews.
Again, this is a recent developement and without precedent, i.e. the idea of one Jewish group targeting adherents of another Jewish group within Judaism for recruitment.
This has largely been done under the direction of American led and/or funded Jewish groups such as Chabad Lubavitch and Aish Ha Torah.
Let's put things into perspective with some additional context.
FYI -- Reform Judaism is more than 100 years old and the largest denomination of Judaism in America.
FYI -- Conservative Judaism is more than 100 years old and is the second largest denomination of Judaism in America.
Hasidic/Chasidic Judaism, which is the basis for much of the so-called "Jewish Outreach" groups, is about 250 years old.
The total number of Chasidic Jews in the world would be considerably less than either the Reform or Conservative denominations in America alone.
It has been estimated that the total number of Jews within all ultra-Orthodox sects (e.g. Lubavitch, Satmar) is perhaps 300,000 worldwide. The majority reside within the United States, primarily in New York.
In a census taken during the 1970s 600,000 Jews in America defined themselves as "Orthodox," less than half the number of Conservative Jews alone.
Taking into account these numbers it seems that recent proselytizing efforts by certain ultra-Orthodox and Orthodox groups may be motivated by a sense that they are losing power, influence and numbers.
The affiliation rate within the United is more than 40% amongst the general Jewish population.
Interestingly, in Israel, where only Orthodox Judaism is officially recognized by the Israeli government and thus enjoys special status, funding and exemptions, the affiliation rate is considerably less.
Repeating the same false arguments doesn't make them meaningful.
You point out that cults recruit Jews, but that is not the topic of this thread.
The topic of this thread is "Jewish Outreach Organizations," which here is used as essentially a euphemism for recruitment efforts by ultra-Orthodox and some Orthodox Jews that often proselytize Reform and Conservative Jews.
Again, this is a recent developement and without precedent, i.e. the idea of one Jewish group targeting adherents of another Jewish group within Judaism for recruitment.
This has largely been done under the direction of American led and/or funded Jewish groups such as Chabad Lubavitch and Aish Ha Torah.
Let's put things into perspective with some additional context.
FYI -- Reform Judaism is more than 100 years old and the largest denomination of Judaism in America.
FYI -- Conservative Judaism is more than 100 years old and is the second largest denomination of Judaism in America.
Hasidic/Chasidic Judaism, which is the basis for much of the so-called "Jewish Outreach" groups, is about 250 years old.
The total number of Chasidic Jews in the world would be considerably less than either the Reform or Conservative denominations in America alone.
It has been estimated that the total number of Jews within all ultra-Orthodox sects (e.g. Lubavitch, Satmar) is perhaps 300,000 worldwide. The majority reside within the United States, primarily in New York.
In a census taken during the 1970s 600,000 Jews in America defined themselves as "Orthodox," less than half the number of Conservative Jews alone.
Taking into account these numbers it seems that recent proselytizing efforts by certain ultra-Orthodox and Orthodox groups may be motivated by a sense that they are losing power, influence and numbers.
The affiliation rate within the United is more than 40% amongst the general Jewish population.
Interestingly, in Israel, where only Orthodox Judaism is officially recognized by the Israeli government and thus enjoys special status, funding and exemptions, the affiliation rate is considerably less.
Why the Jewish Outreach Organizations Succeed
Posted by:
dv
()
Date: June 23, 2007 06:12PM
Richard,
You point out several follies of the outlook of Jewish thinking and it's effect, but in my opinion, you fail to address the main issues by ignoring science and basic sociology.
I quote from usenet:
I won't print the information here regarding Morris Fishbein Yemach Shemoi Ye'abed Zichroi (May his name and memory be obliterated) the so called "Hitler of the healing arts", who promoted the agenda of male circumcision in America, thus mutilating the genitalia of hundreds of millions of boys, over the past 100 years, for fear of Anti-Semitism.
Our follies are skin deep my friend Richard, and they go back around 2,000 years. Their repercussions are longstanding.
You point out several follies of the outlook of Jewish thinking and it's effect, but in my opinion, you fail to address the main issues by ignoring science and basic sociology.
I quote from usenet:
Quote
Finally - and perhaps most importantly - it should be noted that Dr.
Schoen "forgot" to mention that rabbis are advocating the amputation
of
far more infant foreskin than God originally/allegedly commanded...
Ancient rabbis changed the Biblical rule on circumcision - from "tip"
circumcision to total foreskin amputation - in part because Jews -
including Jewish priests - were growing fond of wrestling in the nude
with Greeks (as was the Greek custom of the day) - and penises
without
tips were objects of derision - so Jews were stretching them - so
ancient rabbis eventually decided to change the Biblical rule and
amputate the entire foreskin in infancy...
"...[T]he consequence was [the] attempt to appear like the Greeks by
epispasm ('making themselves foreskins')... [See Circumcision in
Singer
I (and 400 others, eds.), 1901]
Forty years later (134 BCE), the high priest of Jerusalem, John
Hyrcanus, forcibly circumcised the Idumeans, "leading them to think
they
were Jews." [Gribetz J, Greenstein EL, Stein RS. The Timetables of
Jewish History. New York: Simon and Schuster 1993. Judah Gribetz is
president of the Jewish Community Relations Council of New York.]
It was during this period that Jewish priests apparently decided that
stretching the foreskin was wrong and threatened the extermination of
those Jews who stretched their foreskins:
"The Book of Jubilee (xv. 26-27), written in the time of John
Hyrcanus,
has the following: '...God's anger will be kindled against the
children
of the covenant if they make the members of their body appear like
those
of the Gentiles, and they will be expelled and exterminated from the
earth.'" [Charles, The Book of Jubilees iv.-ix. iii. 190-192, under
Circumcision in Singer I (and 400 others, eds.) The Jewish
Encyclopedia.
New York: Ktav 1901.]
But Jews of this period apparently construed the "no stretching"
decree
to mean that it was all right not to circumcise; for when the son of
John Hyrcanus took power in 104 BCE (by imprisoning his mother and
killing his brother), he forced circumcision on the residents of
Galilee
- "many of them Jews." [Gribetz 1993]
The shift to total foreskin amputation is believed to have occurred
one
hundred years later, after the unsuccessful Bar Kokba uprising
against
the Roman Emperor Hadrian (who had completely outlawed circumcision):
"In order to prevent the obliteration of the "seal of the
covenant"...the Rabbis, probably after the war of Bar Kokba (see Yeb.
l.c.; Gen. R. xivi.), instituted the 'peri'ah' (the laying bare of
the
glans), without which circumcision was declared to be of no value
(Shab.
xxx. 6)." [See Circumcision in Singer I (and 400 others, eds.), 1901]
"Thenceforward [total foreskin amputation - the laying bare of the
glans] was the mark of Jewish loyalty." [See Circumcision in Singer I
(and 400 others, eds.), 1901]
Wallerstein indirectly noted in 1983 that ancient rabbis changed the
Biblical rule on circumcision:
"Originally, the surgery involved only cutting the tip of the
foreskin.
This was changed in the Hellenic Period to prevent [Jews from]
elongat[ing] the foreskin stump in order to appear uncircumcised."
[Wallerstein E. Humanistic Judaism 1983;11(4):46]
And in the June 1997 issue of Moment, Hershel Shanks, editor of
Moment,
noted that "the rabbis of the Talmud OFTEN changed the Biblical
rules"
(emphasis added):
"A friend...[argued]...with regard to the Orthodox rabbis'
pronouncement
declaring Reform and Conservative not Judaism...[that]...t's all
traceable to the [U.S.] Reform decision nearly 15 years ago to adopt
patrilineality - a child born of a Jewish father, if raised as a Jew,
is
Jewish....
"....n Biblical times, Jewish descent was determined by the
Jewishness of the father...The rabbis changed that 2,000 year-old
tradition...Indeed the rabbis of the Talmud OFTEN changed the
Biblical
rules (emphases added)..."
[Shanks H. Tolerance v. Halachah. Moment. (Jun)1997;22(3):6, 8-9]
I won't print the information here regarding Morris Fishbein Yemach Shemoi Ye'abed Zichroi (May his name and memory be obliterated) the so called "Hitler of the healing arts", who promoted the agenda of male circumcision in America, thus mutilating the genitalia of hundreds of millions of boys, over the past 100 years, for fear of Anti-Semitism.
Our follies are skin deep my friend Richard, and they go back around 2,000 years. Their repercussions are longstanding.
Why the Jewish Outreach Organizations Succeed
Posted by:
jaim
()
Date: June 24, 2007 04:16AM
Moderator you write:
" Repeating the same false arguments doesn't make them meaningful. "
Calling my arguments false is not making them less of an argument.
You write:
"You point out that cults recruit Jews, but that is not the topic of this thread. "
That, Moderator, is a false argument. What I point out is that secular Jews, which you like to call conservative, which is false, since they are not conservative, they are secular, that is a big difference, recruit Orthodox teenagers.
Proselytization has been part of Judaism, and only towards Jews, for more than 3,000 years. It is not a cult like activity, although it could be part of an activity performed by a cult.
Therefore what you write:
"Again, this is a recent developement and without precedent, i.e. the idea of one Jewish group targeting adherents of another Jewish group within Judaism for recruitment. " Is a completely false argument, see the Bible as an initial resource and build up from then onwards.
Reform Judaism is not more than 100 years old. Reform Judaism is more that 2000 years old, it is all a matter of what you are counting. The concpet of reform Judaism developed into something actually performed by a community an minimaly widespread is 50 years old approx.
Conservative Judaism is something I will not get into further unless you define it more specifically.
What you write:
"Hasidic/Chasidic Judaism, which is the basis for much of the so-called "Jewish Outreach" groups, is about 250 years old. " Is a completely false, blown out of proportions argument. Chasidic Judaism is not the basis for Outreach groups, that is simply wrong. Please tell me which chassidic groups other than Chabad are involved in problematic recruitment.
The numbers you write are strongly misleading and your final argument most of all:
You write:
"The affiliation rate within the United is more than 40% amongst the general Jewish population."
Is it then not a reason for the secular (or conservative, if you prefer) community, since 99% of this assimliation is from its ranks, to worry about loosing power?. Since the birth rate of Orthodox Jews is huge, and the decrease or stagnation of secular Jewish population worldwide is an obvious factor with a 40% affiliation, and higher outside the US, how could what you write be true?
The Orthodox population of Jews in relation to that of secular Judaism (reform Jews included) is increasingly growing since WWII.
In Israel, estimates of population growth have led to serious worries within the secular population, since graphs show the electoral power of Orthodox Jews is the fastest growing by far (along with that of Arabs).
I do not know how you can irresponsibly put up such a theory which is the exact opposite of the truth in order to justify the unnacceptable behaviour of a small group.
Yes, parts of Chabad are a problem and the veneration of the last Lubavitch Rebbe is part of that problem. And yes, Eish Hatora has been a problem, and their seminars are misleading and they are known to use retention technics.
This has nothing to do with Orthodox Judaism as a whole.
And to finally prove my point and repeat to you that your opinions ar not objective at the very best, I will again use your words:
"Interestingly, in Israel, where only Orthodox Judaism is officially recognized by the Israeli government and thus enjoys special status, funding and exemptions, the affiliation rate is considerably less. "
First, this is terribly misleading. It is preposterous. Affiliation occurs outside of Israel, where everyone around you isn't Jewish!!!!
Second, affiliation occurs to secular Jews, not Orthodox.
And Third: Did you know there are more Orthodox Jews in NY city alone than in the entire state of Israel, where Orthodox Jews are one of the poorest sectors of the population? How does that work well with your argument ?
" Repeating the same false arguments doesn't make them meaningful. "
Calling my arguments false is not making them less of an argument.
You write:
"You point out that cults recruit Jews, but that is not the topic of this thread. "
That, Moderator, is a false argument. What I point out is that secular Jews, which you like to call conservative, which is false, since they are not conservative, they are secular, that is a big difference, recruit Orthodox teenagers.
Proselytization has been part of Judaism, and only towards Jews, for more than 3,000 years. It is not a cult like activity, although it could be part of an activity performed by a cult.
Therefore what you write:
"Again, this is a recent developement and without precedent, i.e. the idea of one Jewish group targeting adherents of another Jewish group within Judaism for recruitment. " Is a completely false argument, see the Bible as an initial resource and build up from then onwards.
Reform Judaism is not more than 100 years old. Reform Judaism is more that 2000 years old, it is all a matter of what you are counting. The concpet of reform Judaism developed into something actually performed by a community an minimaly widespread is 50 years old approx.
Conservative Judaism is something I will not get into further unless you define it more specifically.
What you write:
"Hasidic/Chasidic Judaism, which is the basis for much of the so-called "Jewish Outreach" groups, is about 250 years old. " Is a completely false, blown out of proportions argument. Chasidic Judaism is not the basis for Outreach groups, that is simply wrong. Please tell me which chassidic groups other than Chabad are involved in problematic recruitment.
The numbers you write are strongly misleading and your final argument most of all:
You write:
"The affiliation rate within the United is more than 40% amongst the general Jewish population."
Is it then not a reason for the secular (or conservative, if you prefer) community, since 99% of this assimliation is from its ranks, to worry about loosing power?. Since the birth rate of Orthodox Jews is huge, and the decrease or stagnation of secular Jewish population worldwide is an obvious factor with a 40% affiliation, and higher outside the US, how could what you write be true?
The Orthodox population of Jews in relation to that of secular Judaism (reform Jews included) is increasingly growing since WWII.
In Israel, estimates of population growth have led to serious worries within the secular population, since graphs show the electoral power of Orthodox Jews is the fastest growing by far (along with that of Arabs).
I do not know how you can irresponsibly put up such a theory which is the exact opposite of the truth in order to justify the unnacceptable behaviour of a small group.
Yes, parts of Chabad are a problem and the veneration of the last Lubavitch Rebbe is part of that problem. And yes, Eish Hatora has been a problem, and their seminars are misleading and they are known to use retention technics.
This has nothing to do with Orthodox Judaism as a whole.
And to finally prove my point and repeat to you that your opinions ar not objective at the very best, I will again use your words:
"Interestingly, in Israel, where only Orthodox Judaism is officially recognized by the Israeli government and thus enjoys special status, funding and exemptions, the affiliation rate is considerably less. "
First, this is terribly misleading. It is preposterous. Affiliation occurs outside of Israel, where everyone around you isn't Jewish!!!!
Second, affiliation occurs to secular Jews, not Orthodox.
And Third: Did you know there are more Orthodox Jews in NY city alone than in the entire state of Israel, where Orthodox Jews are one of the poorest sectors of the population? How does that work well with your argument ?
Why the Jewish Outreach Organizations Succeed
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: June 24, 2007 10:18PM
Jaim:
You talk in circles and don't make much sense. Again, the topic of this thread is "Jewish Outreach" not your theology.
"Secular" cannot mean Jews affiliated with a synagogue by any objective definition.
Reform and Convervative Jews are in fact affiliated with recognized denominations, worship in synagogues and are not "secular."
You are attempting to create your own definitions, which are not based upon facts.
You correctly point out that generally, despite Israeli government recognition and support, there are probably more Orthodox Jews in New York than Israel.
But despite the high birth rate of Orthodox Jews, they still remain a relatively small group when compared to the large numbers of Conservative and Reform Jews.
There is no organized effort by Conservative Jews, i.e. that denomination of Judaism or its rabbis, to proselytize Orthodox Jews.
Historically, many Orthodox have individually decided to leave Orthodox Judaism and join a Conservative synagogue. But this is a personal choice and not the result of any organized proselytizing scheme.
The "Jewish Outreach," which is the focus and topic of this thread, is promulgated by ultra-Orthodox groups that frequently target young people on vacation in Israel from Reform and Conservative affiliated families.
There is nothing comparable being done by Reform and Conservative Jews and the effort is essentially without historical precedent. That is, one Jewish religious group targeting another for recruitment purposes.
As you say Aish and Chabad are the primary sponsors of such efforts.
Whatever your personal theological argument is with either Reform Judaism or Conservative Judaism, that is not the topic of this thread.
Please don't again attempt to discuss other issues that are not the focus of this thread, these are false arguments and off topic.
You talk in circles and don't make much sense. Again, the topic of this thread is "Jewish Outreach" not your theology.
"Secular" cannot mean Jews affiliated with a synagogue by any objective definition.
Reform and Convervative Jews are in fact affiliated with recognized denominations, worship in synagogues and are not "secular."
You are attempting to create your own definitions, which are not based upon facts.
You correctly point out that generally, despite Israeli government recognition and support, there are probably more Orthodox Jews in New York than Israel.
But despite the high birth rate of Orthodox Jews, they still remain a relatively small group when compared to the large numbers of Conservative and Reform Jews.
There is no organized effort by Conservative Jews, i.e. that denomination of Judaism or its rabbis, to proselytize Orthodox Jews.
Historically, many Orthodox have individually decided to leave Orthodox Judaism and join a Conservative synagogue. But this is a personal choice and not the result of any organized proselytizing scheme.
The "Jewish Outreach," which is the focus and topic of this thread, is promulgated by ultra-Orthodox groups that frequently target young people on vacation in Israel from Reform and Conservative affiliated families.
There is nothing comparable being done by Reform and Conservative Jews and the effort is essentially without historical precedent. That is, one Jewish religious group targeting another for recruitment purposes.
As you say Aish and Chabad are the primary sponsors of such efforts.
Whatever your personal theological argument is with either Reform Judaism or Conservative Judaism, that is not the topic of this thread.
Please don't again attempt to discuss other issues that are not the focus of this thread, these are false arguments and off topic.
Why the Jewish Outreach Organizations Succeed
Posted by:
richardmgreen
()
Date: July 25, 2007 02:17AM
Actually, Rick at one point in time, Judaism was a tremendous missionary religion and it was after the enslavement by the Greeks and our subsequent freedom from them that we gave up trying to make Jews out of non-Jews let alone promote Judaism amonst our own people.Quote
rrmoderator
Jaim:
You have offered a series of false arguments and attempted to ignore the main point.
Until recently, Jews did not proselytize.
Why the Jewish Outreach Organizations Succeed
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 25, 2007 02:26AM
Yes.
Jewish proselytizing is ancient history.
But apparently the Chabad and Aish Ha Torah seem to feel that proselytizing other Jews (e.g. Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist) is OK.
Jewish proselytizing is ancient history.
But apparently the Chabad and Aish Ha Torah seem to feel that proselytizing other Jews (e.g. Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist) is OK.
Why the Jewish Outreach Organizations Succeed
Posted by:
kageki
()
Date: August 07, 2007 02:05AM
Hi. I just joined this forum because I noticed there was a mention of the group Aish Ha Torah. I'm wondering about this group because I just found out that this group is behind the Hasbara Fellowships which is a government-sponsored activist group which has called for activism on Wikipedia. Is this the same group you are claiming as ultra-orthodox and cult-like?
[en.wikipedia.org]
[en.wikipedia.org]
Hasbara Fellowships Newsletter May 31, 2007
[www.israelactivism.com]
[en.wikipedia.org]
[en.wikipedia.org]
Hasbara Fellowships Newsletter May 31, 2007
[www.israelactivism.com]
Quote
Everyone knows about Wikipedia, a place to go to get the 'real' scoop. How often do you use Wikipedia to look up subjects you know little about? Now imagine how often other people use Wikipedia to look up subjects related to Israel.
Wikipedia is not an objective resource but rather an online encyclopedia that any one can edit. The result is a website that is in large part is controlled by 'intellectuals' who seek re-write the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. These authors have systematically yet subtly rewritten key passages of thousands of Wikipedia entries to portray Israel in a negative light.
You have the opportunity to stop this dangerous trend! If you are interested in joining a team of Wikipedians to make sure Israel is presented fairly and accurately, please contact director@israelactivism.com for details!
Why the Jewish Outreach Organizations Succeed
Posted by:
Moishe3rd
()
Date: August 07, 2007 11:48AM
The entire Torah has promoted the idea that Jews ought to be more Observant - for the last 3,000 years.Quote
rrmoderator
Yes.
Jewish proselytizing is ancient history.
But apparently the Chabad and Aish Ha Torah seem to feel that proselytizing other Jews (e.g. Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist) is OK.
This is not a "new phenomena." It is simply, that today, in the United States of America, one has complete freedom of religion.
No one is going to reject you because you are a Jew and you are therefore free to leave Judaism and join the fabulous world of secular values and morals...
And, likewise, no one is going to kill you if you are an Orthodox Jew inviting other Jews to try a world of Torah and mitzvos.
It is simply easier to do outreach nowadays. It's not new.
I have to believe that anyone who can believe that Aish is doing something underhanded or unethical does not have a particularly objective viewpoint...
Why the Jewish Outreach Organizations Succeed
Posted by:
richardmgreen
()
Date: August 08, 2007 10:53PM
Quote
"Moishe3rdThe entire Torah has promoted the idea that Jews ought to be more Observant - for the last 3,000 years.
This is not a "new phenomena." It is simply, that today, in the United States of America, one has complete freedom of religion.
No one is going to reject you because you are a Jew and you are therefore free to leave Judaism and join the fabulous world of secular values and morals...
And, likewise, no one is going to kill you if you are an Orthodox Jew inviting other Jews to try a world of Torah and mitzvos.
It is simply easier to do outreach nowadays. It's not new.
I have to believe that anyone who can believe that Aish is doing something underhanded or unethical does not have a particularly objective viewpoint...[/quote
I don't believe that Aish is trying to do anything wrong but they have in effect, torn apart familes and they have very little in the way of success with Chozrim Bitshuvah's. America has freedom of religion. I am not a secularist. I believe in G-d but I don't believe in what is maintained to be absolute truth in any of the modern religions of the world. I believe we can all do better than this.
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