I noticed, as a Krishna devotee for several years, that many of the members of my community suffered from various mental illnesses. It distresses me that there is no treatment for these people within the movement. Because the movement advocates celibacy, it attracts a lot of people who have issues around sexuality - people who were abused sexually; people (women usually) who have never had an orgasm etc. Of all the rules of that movement, celibacy is the biggest danger in my opinion. It is also symbolic of the overall attitude that the solution to problems is to repress them.
Time to time, over the years, I feel compelled to do something to help people still in the movement. EVERYONE I know who was in it when I was is still in it. I don't know. This is one of those times and so I've sought out info online and found this BB.
Most of the info out there on ex-Krishna devotees is so extreme: child abuse, murder, drug dealing, etc. There's no forum for ex-devotees just trying to recover from the general experience of being in a cult.
So I appreciate this forum. I hope there are others out there like me who are interested in communicating here. I'll check back time to time.
thanks

Welcome to the board. I would love to hear about your experiences in this group, if you are willing to share them here. Are there various groups with different names within krishna? For instance, is Science of the Mind a krishna organization?

ISKCON is the primary group in the west. There are also several offshoot groups:

ISKCON Revival Movement (IRM) - Ritvik offshoot. They don't believe in living gurus. They have had several fights with ISKCON, and their philosophy is banned from ISKCON.

Prabhupada anti-defamation (PADA) - Another Ritvik group, more fanatical than IRM. Leader is "Kapindra swami".

Science of Identity Foundation (SIF) - Very secretive group that owns a successful chain of health food stores in Hawaii (Rick Ross has an article achived where the health food store fired several employees who weren't Krishna devotees). Deep, severe indoctrination techniques used (I base this on commentary from longtime observers as well as my own distant observation toward their strongly apparent rigidity), but since SIF is very low key, very few know about it. One family that maintains a high position in SIF, the Gabbards, have 3 family members in 3 elected official jobs in Hawaii. They spent an incredible amount (in one case, 4 times the amount their biggest opponents spent) on campaigning. They are also obsessed with denouncing homosexuality. Leader is Chris Butler aka "Jagad Guru Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa".

International Gaudiya Vedanta Society (IGVS) - Group that believes their Indian guru is the true scion to ISKCON. ISKCON has banned all IGVS members from some of their temples. Although they don't agree with one another, IGVS is just as bad, indoctrination-wise, in some cases worse since they like to get members fast. They take a noted interest toward wealthy people they can convert. Leader is "Narayan Maharaj".

ISKCON is the first western group for worshipping Krishna, but it is all derivative of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, which started 500 years ago in Bengal, India. There are a plethora of Gaudiya Vaishnavism groups in India, many are as harmless as a protestant church, but some are like ISKCON.

People should not believe that anyone who believes in Krishna, or anyone who believes in Krishna that is following the line of Bhaktisiddhanta is in some kind of harmful cult. However there are some groups like the ones I mentioned above that tend to indoctrinate and go too far in the process. They make some big emphasis on celibacy and just general tension in worship. Many groups in India are far more casual (again, like protestantism) and more meaningful spiritual interaction.

Seeing ISKCON, SIF, IRM, PADA, IGVS = "Krishna", is very disturbing to me. It's like saying Davidians, LDS, Reverend Moon = Jesus Christ

Science of Identity!!!!! That's the one I meant. They were running a meditation school in Hoboken NJ. My doc was always suggesting I learn to meditate, so when I found the school in the phone book, I signed up (it was free, as truly authentic spiritual learning is supposed to be).

For a while, it was me and the teacher, Prahbu Das, who taught me to do a chant meditation. I stopped going when he suggested I consider moving to Hawaii to teach vegetarian cooking. Prahbu gave me lots of free pamphlets and tapes by Chris Butler, who sounded very condescending and arrogant.


Gauranga

[216.239.53.104][www.kaleo.org]

Community Perspective

December 04, 2002

Hey Hope,

I find your post very interesting. Very little is known about SIF, and I've never seen an ex-member before (and I have met many who are or were Krishna devotees). Let me tell you what I know.

I used to live in Hawaii, and I loved going to their health food store Down to Earth (DTE). They have hot vegetarian food there, and very good selection of organic produce. As I was going to their store more and more, however, I would get a distant, "creepy" feeling. I felt that everyone working there was "interconnected" somehow.

SIF Hawaii uses 3 methods to recruit members:

1) DTE employees - If you work at Down to Earth, chances are most of your co-workers are followers of Chris Butler. They will make attempts to recruit you. I've heard the pay is very good there, and that even cult members get paid well. I have some feeling that somehow the money they get paid gets cycled back to SIF, but this is entirely my speculation. If you order an application, it will say you can't attempt to "pick up other employees", and has some sort of restrictions on social interaction.

2) Lifestyle Center - This is the name of the "center" attached to the store. They offer a lot of vegetarian and cooking seminars (this is where your Prabhu das probably wanted you to work). I believe they also try to sneak their brand of meditation in there.

3) Flirtation - SIF has a lot of young people, and many are attractive. I've spoken to others who went to the store, and some felt there was some odd flirtation going on (happened to me too), although outside contact is forbidden. They find some kind of delicate balance though, to tantilize young people, yet keep their OWN young people in check (almost all of them live with senior cult members who watch like a hawk).

I don't know what else to say. I know from very reliable sources that their temple is filled with pictures of Chris Butler, and that during their weekly programs on the beach of Bellow's Air Force Base at Waimanelo, senior members close to Butler wear surgical masks, so there could be a Howard Hughs theme going, as well. He is quite paranoid, and does not come out in public. He also has been known to often shout profanities during lectures, something that he doesn't do during his television show "Jagad Guru Speaks". They also emphasize Christianity, and somehow try to equate their brand of worshipping Krishna with some new brand of new age interfaith Christianity.

You are very fortunate not to have been sucked in, Hope. It's very tempting to get invited to Hawaii. Once you're there, however, Butler and his lieutenants will assume complete control over your actions, career-wise, social-wise, you name it.

I hope it doesn't leave a bad impression about Krishna on you, though. Millions of people in India worship Krishna and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and study the Bhagavad Gita and Bhagavad Purana. Many are not fanatical members of an institution, and many have rewarding careers and happy family lives.

You just have to be careful with all eastern religions due to the recurring theme of surrendering to the guru. Many gurus are not qualified, and will pull you down to their rut with them.

Jai Gouranga

Hey Hope,

I find your post very interesting. Very little is known about SIF, and I've never seen an ex-member before (and I have met many who are or were Krishna devotees). Let me tell you what I know.

I used to live in Hawaii, and I loved going to their health food store Down to Earth (DTE). They have hot vegetarian food there, and very good selection of organic produce. As I was going to their store more and more, however, I would get a distant, "creepy" feeling. I felt that everyone working there was "interconnected" somehow.

SIF Hawaii uses 3 methods to recruit members:

1) DTE employees - If you work at Down to Earth, chances are most of your co-workers are followers of Chris Butler. They will make attempts to recruit you. I've heard the pay is very good there, and that even cult members get paid well. I have some feeling that somehow the money they get paid gets cycled back to SIF, but this is entirely my speculation. If you order an application, it will say you can't attempt to "pick up other employees", and has some sort of restrictions on social interaction.

2) Lifestyle Center - This is the name of the "center" attached to the store. They offer a lot of vegetarian and cooking seminars (this is where your Prabhu das probably wanted you to work). I believe they also try to sneak their brand of meditation in there.

3) Flirtation - SIF has a lot of young people, and many are attractive. I've spoken to others who went to the store, and some felt there was some odd flirtation going on (happened to me too), although outside contact is forbidden. They find some kind of delicate balance though, to tantilize young people, yet keep their OWN young people in check (almost all of them live with senior cult members who watch like a hawk).

I don't know what else to say. I know from very reliable sources that their temple is filled with pictures of Chris Butler, and that during their weekly programs on the beach of Bellow's Air Force Base at Waimanelo, senior members close to Butler wear surgical masks, so there could be a Howard Hughs theme going, as well. He is quite paranoid, and does not come out in public. He also has been known to often shout profanities during lectures, something that he doesn't do during his television show "Jagad Guru Speaks". They also emphasize Christianity, and somehow try to equate their brand of worshipping Krishna with some new brand of new age interfaith Christianity.

You are very fortunate not to have been sucked in, Hope. It's very tempting to get invited to Hawaii. Once you're there, however, Butler and his lieutenants will assume complete control over your actions, career-wise, social-wise, you name it.

I hope it doesn't leave a bad impression about Krishna on you, though. Millions of people in India worship Krishna and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and study the Bhagavad Gita and Bhagavad Purana. Many are not fanatical members of an institution, and many have rewarding careers and happy family lives.

You just have to be careful with all eastern religions due to the recurring theme of surrendering to the guru. Many gurus are not qualified, and will pull you down to their rut with them.

(I tried posting this before, but I had network problems. If this is a double post, please disregard, thanks)

Yes, Dervish, you are right - I should have the handle "ex-ISKCON". "Krishna" is a much better known way of describing ISKCON to Westerners whose understanding of ISKCON is based on things like the airport scene in the movie "Airplane" and other such pop-culture references. But it is inaccurate and potentially offensive to those who follow Gaudiya Vaisnavism in a non-harmful way.
However, since the people I mean to reach with my testimonials are ex-devotees or devotees who would understand the reference and not be offended by lumping Krishna in with ISKCON and nondevotees who wouldn't understand if I said "ex-ISKCON" then I apologize to anyone I offend by calling myself and "ex-krishna" but I will keep the handle.
In any case I do believe in freedom of religion but I do not believe in the concept of religion and so I do not believe that Jesus or Krishna are divine untouchable names and concepts although I do believe that the right of other to consider them as such is worth protecting as long as they don't try to kill anybody who disagrees with them (e.g. the case of Islam v. Salman Rushdie).
Sometimes I still say "Gauranga" when I sneeze - habits die hard.


;)

Ex-Krishna,

Actually, I took no offense to your forum name, or anything else for that matter. I don't think anyone should take offense to those things.

Unfortunately, what I read from you on this thread and on the recovery forum are common stories that I've heard about and seen with my own eyes in some of those groups I mentioned.

Women devotees, encouraged never to get an education, are often faced with abusive husbands who take "Vedic" way out of context (I don't agree with a lot that Chankaya Pandit says, and I think Manu Samhita as we see it today is a forgery). Luckily, many, like yourself, have the strength to seperate themselves from the bad group, move on, and get a good education. Some see themselves as agnostics or open-minded Hindus, there's a big range. I've been to India twice, and have met many women who believe in Krishna who are both intelligent and education. A few were doctors.

Sadly, in some western groups, the powers that be see that the man is holding the checkbook, so they ignore the needs of the rest of the family, and this can be extremely traumatizing especially for children in situations like abuse and divorce. I think Nori Muster's book deals with this, but it only seemed to scratch the surface.

Best wishes to you, and I hope your good friends see the problems in their institution and have the sense to make some distance.

corboy: Yes, indeed, that's the big irony. SIF is a very closed society. When they *DO* make themselves visible in society, it's mainly to make anti-gay propaganda or further the political careers of those in the priveleged families of the cult. Not only are they discouraged from outside contact, but they are instructed not to speak to outside Krishna devotees and are forbidden from reading many different books. Association is everything, and all they have are each other.

Hope: When you went to SIF programs, did they "warn" you not to read other books? Just curious. I am very intrigued with cults, but am especially intrigued with SIF.

Dervish,

My involvement was short-lived - just 1x a week chant meditation classes for a few months at most. Prabhu Das seemed very kind, never took money when I offered because he claimed I didn't know enough about the org to be able to do so. He talked briefly about studying the gita, which would be a long-term committment. I could not do that, though was interested in studying it. But then when he found out I was a culinary school grad, he started giving bits of info about Hawaii and what sounded like a commune. He also wanted me to teach classes in NJ and come to the kirtan on Sunday. Once I started reading the brochures by Butler, I got suspicious, and when PD started talking about the sin of homosexuality, about the importance of keeping a chant tape on 24/7, and especially when he wouldn't answer questions about the nature of the organization, I bailed. He emailed me several times about a new location and to see if I was okay, but my gut said stay away.

I think PD was sincere and a devout devotee doing his job. He had a wife, a job, a band. He had a little band and group chanting in nursing homes. We actually harmonized quite well and wanted me to join the band. He's no longer in the area, NJ Meditation School isn't advertized anywhere now.