I wonder if anyone knowledgeable about cults and online games can determine if "The Sims Online" has been invaded by one or more cults. There is a group of some 100 individuals or more joined, many of them recently after the game has been in existence for a year, many of them from other addictive online games like "Ultima Online". They belong to what they call a "lifestyle" called BDSM which stands for bondage/discipline/sadomasochism. They all use exactly the same expressions and terms. They have come into the main city of this on-line world and taken over 30 lots in the "romance" category out of 100 lots. They advocate violence and slavery iin sexual reationships and say it is consensual and this is actually an entire way of life for them. They say they are not a cult , but they appear to have some indoctrination techniques and many of the characteristics of coercion of the subtle type described on this site. Some of the most aggressive and violent ones say they are adherents of John Norman, the author of some science fiction novels about a land called Gor where the women are second-class citizens and slaves. The Goreans speak about themselves in the third person (the slaves) and also have their own language, arcane rituals, etc.

There is a huge discussion about all of this here:
[www.alphavilleherald.com] It would be beneficial if someone who actually knows something about cults and how they work could comment. Look under the articles about BDSM and the Sim Shadow Government.

It has been pointed out that if you can log off or delete your Sim, it isn't much of a cult. Yet many of these players have websites that hook up to real-life scenes. They have increased their membership hugely by what seems like recruitment, yet the new recruits say angrily that they haven't been recruited but just found their "lifestyle". The "subs" who are dominated by the "doms" all have profiles saying you cannot speak to them directly but have to clear everything with their "dom".

There is a relentless and energy to these people that does suggest a cult, but on the other hand, people think they are just chosing a lifestyle and deserve tolerance. If anyone shows the slightest concern about the violence and slavery they promote, they are called "bigots". It has made it impossible to have any discussion. This is a game in which 13 year olds are allowed to play because it is a teen-rated game. Many parents are concerned.

I"ll start with my general comments first. I don't think that one can categorize the BDSM lifestyle as a cult. There is no central leadership or organization of any kind. It is just a choice about how to behave - like vegetarianism.

BDSM relationships, on the other hand, certainly have cultic features, and probably many of the organized groups within the BDSM community have cultic features as well.

The Sims region you are talking about may have been actively developed by a specific real life group, or it might just be a case of like attracting like.

I should probably say that I am into BDSM, and have been involved with BDSM community for about 10 years. I'm happy to answer any other questions about the scene and the community.

Penny

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Originally posted by Juniper
They belong to what they call a "lifestyle" called BDSM which stands for bondage/discipline/sadomasochism. They all use exactly the same expressions and terms.

People involved with the BDSM lifestyle and community have developed a jargon which is commonly used and understood within the community. Much in the same way that people who love baseball or stamp collecting have jargons for communicating with others who share their passion.

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They advocate violence and slavery iin sexual reationships and say it is consensual and this is actually an entire way of life for them.

For many people who practice BDSM this is true. One of the bywords of 'respectable' BDSM is SSC - Safe, Sane, Consensual.
But many is not all. There are the people who play with BDSM, and aren't into it as a lifestyle. And there are the violent whackos who should be locked up because they are doing things that aren't safe, sane and consensual.

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Some of the most aggressive and violent ones say they are adherents of John Norman, the author of some science fiction novels about a land called Gor where the women are second-class citizens and slaves. The Goreans speak about themselves in the third person (the slaves) and also have their own language, arcane rituals, etc.

The Goreans are a subculture of the BDSM subculture -- they are the extremists/fundamentalists of the community, to try for the best analogy. Gorean behaviour is far more common in online venues then in real life, because of it's extremism.

It is my opinion that Gorean behaviours are not SSC, and should not be practiced in real life. If someone tries to persuade you into a rl Gorean encouter, run like hell.

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They have increased their membership hugely by what seems like recruitment, yet the new recruits say angrily that they haven't been recruited but just found their "lifestyle".

The anonymity of the internet makes it an appealing venue for people who are interested in BDSM to connect with one another. I think the main point would be whether or not the individuals you refer to are involved with the BDSM community in real life.

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The "subs" who are dominated by the "doms" all have profiles saying you cannot speak to them directly but have to clear everything with their "dom".

Since you mentioned the Goreans earlier, I suspect this is probably one of their protocols. Non-Gorean's may do this, depending on their personal preference. It is not in anyway unusual in the BDSM scene rl -- but then, the Dom and sub are generally together when it applies.

Yes, it's a controlling behaviour. That's what BDSM is all about.

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There is a relentless and energy to these people that does suggest a cult, but on the other hand, people think they are just chosing a lifestyle and deserve tolerance. If anyone shows the slightest concern about the violence and slavery they promote, they are called "bigots". It has made it impossible to have any discussion.

Well, BDSM is certainly a lifestyle choice, just as vegetarianism is certainly a lifestyle choice. I would disagree about it being one that 'deserves tolerance'. BDSM is fundamentally about doing things that are in other circumstances harmful. I think that the safety of the community at large is a more significant concern then the right of an individual to have a BDSM relationship.

I'm not sure I understand what you want to be discussing with the BDSM community in this instance.

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This is a game in which 13 year olds are allowed to play because it is a teen-rated game. Many parents are concerned.

I agree that this is an inappropriate venue for the online BDSM community to be using. I think the parents are right to be concerned, regardless of whether there is any cult activity going on or not. To practice BDSM is a choice that should be made only by adults, and I believe that to expose children to it (no matter how SSC the relationship) is abusive.

Penny

Here in London there is quite an overlap between Human Potential cults and BDSM. The same people who introduced me to Landmark (we met through Co-counselling, a derivative of Dianetics) also introduced me to the BDSM ‘scene’ here.

I guess BDSM and cults draw on the same anti-establishment and alternative culture types whose personalities are attracted to submission or domination, and the same psychological mind games are played out in both activities. From my experience I think they can both induce depersonalisation and dissociation.

BDSM was an eye-opener for a voyeur like myself, pretty scary. Although BDSM can seem like innocent fun and games at first with the fancy dress and all, I think it’s playing with fire and a potential danger to mental health. I felt very shaky and hyper and off-balance for a long time after my first ‘party’, the energy and atmosphere of it reminded me of how I felt when I met the spooky Co$ people.

For my own health and protection I stopped going to BDSM parties when I gave up the cultic personal development group scene.

Chris

'I felt very shaky and hyper and off-balance'

Time an again, dysfunctional training groups or unqualified teachers will label your experience of dissociation/depersonalization as a sign of progress, even of enlightenment, when in fact, feeling 'shaky and hyper and off-balance' is a sign that you're being traumatized and need to remove yourself from the person/social setting that is making you feel this way.

When you're being shoved off balance and someone tries to persuade you that you're actually finding your balance and need more of the stuff that's poisoning you--that is the most sophisticated recipe for mind-fuck.

This self monitoring can be educational, if properly done, but can easily lead to emotional constriction--and to a rather unpleasant condescension in relation to persons who do express emotion in a less disciplined, but more human way. (At least with the latter, you know where you stand!)

Without a lot of experience, it is easy to mis-label pathology as health. Unfortunately, the only way to get some forms of experience is to be burned. Its a shame that has to happen.

Kico, these are some very good insights.
I am personally not into any type of BDSM thing, BUT, i have dated women who wanted to be dominated sexually, and even humiliated, and wanted to play those types of sex-mind games.
In my view, that can be a slippery slope.
There is something very primal in us humans when it comes to Dominance and Submission.

And if you look at many cults, they are all about Dominance and Submission.
This could be one reason the more blatant cults have had very little impact on me. Because i will NEVER submit to anyone. Its just not in my genetic character to submit to anyone, and i don't particularly want to dominate another person either.

So if a person is a submissive type of person, i think they should be very careful. I would imagine these types of parties are a "thrill", and then people go and search for a new and bigger "high".
Sounds like a seminar junkie to me. Always looking for another bigger and better seminar, a bigger and better guru, and some type of emotional high, perfect "enlightenment" or even "ascension".

Dominance and Submission seems to me, to be some of the most ancient, primal impulses in us human primates. That is probably why its so exciting for people.
I personally don't think its just a harmless lifestyle choice. There is a hellava lot more going on psychologically than that. I have met a couple of guys who were Dominants in the BDSM thing, and frankly, in both cases these guys struck me as guys on a little power trip. Sort of like mini-cult leaders.

There is much more to this stuff than meets the eye, in my view.
I think it is similar to the Guru/Slave dynamic. That is older than humanity.
Personally, i don't think its healthy.

Coz

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Originally posted by kico

I guess BDSM and cults draw on the same anti-establishment and alternative culture types whose personalities are attracted to submission or domination, and the same psychological mind games are played out in both activities. From my experience I think they can both induce depersonalisation and dissociation.

Although BDSM can seem like innocent fun and games at first with the fancy dress and all, I think it’s playing with fire and a potential danger to mental health. I felt very shaky and hyper and off-balance for a long time after my first ‘party’, the energy and atmosphere of it reminded me of how I felt when I met the spooky Co$ people.

For my own health and protection I stopped going to BDSM parties when I gave up the cultic personal development group scene.

Chris

In a list of signs that you're making spiritual progress

1)** You refuse to participate in games of dominance/submission that are on offer in various theatres of cruelty

2) You gain an increasingly sophisticated understanding of the difference between privacy and secrecy.

(Privacy nurtures relationships and safeguards the freedom of other persons. Secrecy isolates, shames and imposes a burden)

Kico, I think you are right on target with your theory about 'anti-establishment and alternative culture types'. While my experience with Human potential cults is limited, I can certainly speak to the fact that those involved with BDSM are almost invariably involved with other types of alternative belief/behaviour systems.

I believe that this ties into what Coz says about D/s being a primal pattern for the human species. The more deep seated that very old urge is, the harder it is to find ones place in this society, and the more one is vulnerable to/open to (depending on ones mental health) to the range of cultic groups.

I hope I never implied that pursuing BDSM is a 'harmless' lifestyle choice -- it's not, and if I inadvertantly gave the impression that is what I think, let me correct it.

Corboy, the thoughts on privacy vs secrecy are wonderful - thank you for posting them. The distinction you point up is, in my own experience, an invaluable criteria for the health of a relationship (of any kind). It is a very awkward subject within the context of BDSM relationships though, and I'm not sure that these forums are even remotely the right place for that particular discussion. *lol*

I have to say, this is quite possibly the last place I would have expected this topic to come up -- it's fascinating to hear the unique viewpoint on BDSM that's available here.

Penny

Privacy is negotiated within and helps maintain peer relationships where power is shared and in balance.

Secrecy is imposed within the context of a power imbalance and maintains that imbalance.

Somebody better put my mind at ease right now because I'm about to have a panic attack.

This Sims Online is an S&M game?

My 14 year old daughter plays this game and I NEVER look to see what's going on. I think my 10 year old son plays it too! WTF?

Both of these kids are very innocent. I'm not kidding myself here. I know them well enough to know what they're up to most of the time. They are very sweet, nice kids. They know NOTHING about S&M, and I don't want them to (not for at least another some years!)

But SIMS ONLINE is something I have to worry about now? Oh crap.

Please tell me I misread this whole thread.

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Originally posted by corboy
Privacy is negotiated within and helps maintain peer relationships where power is shared and in balance.

Secrecy is imposed within the context of a power imbalance and maintains that imbalance.

In my opinion a healthy BDSM relationship is both private, in that the partners are open about their preference only within mutually agreed parameters, and secret, in that the inherent nature of such a relationship -- while possibly appropriate and healthy between given individuals -- is not something that should be publically condoned.

A complication of this for the partners within a BDSM relationship, is that some of the consensual activities they engage in may be illegal. While not a major consideration in the US for discreet and careful partners, in other countries, there are laws specifically barring consensual BDSM. Thus, secrecy is mandated by illegality.

*sigh*

It returns to something I wrote in my original post - "BDSM is fundamentally about doing things that are in other circumstances harmful. I think that the safety of the community at large is a more significant concern then the right of an individual to have a BDSM relationship."

I simply cannot in good conscience advocate otherwise, despite the climate of secrecy this creates. Such climates are themselves harmful -- but not more so, in my opinion, then the alternative. Would any reasonable person want a society in which the mores of BDSM are acceptable?

Penny