Re: Bnei Baruch anyone?
Posted by: Johny ()
Date: October 05, 2008 04:29PM

Rav's answers about Maaser!


1:43 min


2:33 min

I have found this on the BB-forum yesterday
@hol has comment this but the instructor deleted his post:

Zoom picture!

Re: Bnei Baruch anyone?
Posted by: fshedrinsky ()
Date: October 06, 2008 07:48AM

Rav's answers about Maaser!

I have found this on the BB-forum yesterday
@hol has comment this but the instructor deleted his post:

Zoom picture!

According to Kabbalah each mitzva is significant - this can be understood from the pasuk where Torah compares mitzva of chasing the mother bird with respect to one's parents. Natural question arises - how can you compare such difficult mitzva as respect of parents to simple act of chasing the mother bird. Our sages explain that this example is given in Torah to highlight that we cannot pick and choose among which mitzvos to observe and which not to observe as we simply have no comprehension to their spiritual roots.

As for maaser.
1. According to Laitman one doesn't have to observe any mitzvos as one can't have proper intentions in this world. Moreover one doesn't need to observe mitzvos in physical world but only to operate in spiritual realm. If that's the case why can't one merely have intention to pay maaser rather than actually transferring the funds to BB according to this logic?

2. I spoke with several students of RABSAH and they all told me the same thing - ANYONE could have entered the lessons of RABASH freely and maaser directly to Rebe was NEVER required from anyone! The only time when maaser was ASKED (but not required!) to be brought was when Baal HaSulam was trying to publish his works and he simply had no means to do it. At that time each student TRIED to come up with any possible sum to help publish these books. And only because of these people we now can have these materials. However beside this specific time, it was never a mandatory requirement neither with Baal HaSulam nor with Rabash.

Guys, it's really simple - if you're being asked to pay to study Kabbalah, you're looking to supporting a business rather than actual spiritual growth.

The next two weeks are rich with spiritual bounty. This is the only time of the year when one can JUMP through many stages of spiritual growth. I wish you all to succeed and may HaShem bless you all in your journey.

All the best.

Re: Bnei Baruch anyone?
Posted by: Johny ()
Date: October 06, 2008 05:03PM

Attachment for the previous post!


4:59 min

If Rav Okowita was a long time student of Rabash. Why is it he states that given of a tithe (10 percent) is not a prerequisite to spirituality nor is it ever? Did he just make it up? What would he have to gain in making such a statement?


ZOOM picture!

Re: Bnei Baruch anyone?
Posted by: fshedrinsky ()
Date: October 06, 2008 09:59PM

If Rav Okowita was a long time student of Rabash. Why is it he states that given of a tithe (10 percent) is not a prerequisite to spirituality nor is it ever? Did he just make it up? What would he have to gain in making such a statement?

I have no idea who ever came up with such non-sense. Maaser as any other mitzva is an obligation and there is no question about it! That said, strict requirement of Maaser to be paid ONLY to the institution that "teaches you Kabbalah" rather than giving it to the needy only shows what goals this institution pursues.

Re: Bnei Baruch anyone?
Posted by: outtathere ()
Date: November 22, 2008 11:17PM

Well, well. I was following and contributing to this thread from the beginning, and it looks like more and more people are coming to their senses.

Please get it, all ye of less and less faith:
BB is a cult and the gullible are prone to fall for all its many traps.
Laitman is a con man who has motives beyond the publicly stated, and who wants YOUR money to further them.

Oh, and by the way: there is nothing supernatural.

Re: Bnei Baruch anyone?
Posted by: geokozmos ()
Date: March 10, 2009 02:47AM

It is possible that BB is not perfect or seems deceptive. But to cry Word Domination seems to me a bit too much. To use "zionism" as a demonic force (when in relaity it is a perfectly logical answer to really existing Word Oppression Against Jews) seems to me counter-productive. You will not dissuade from BB people who think that Zionism is acceptable as those who hate it (like terror organizations) are really and clearly probably worse: simply intent to kill Jews /with the attacking half-truth that they are out to dominate...whatever anyone says, it was among Jewish texts that anyone ever arrived to a Unifying concept on a Uniquew Higher Power...that does indeed dominate the word, as the One God, the Eternal...So ther will always be texts on this Godly Presence...and people will always claim that those who deal with these teachuings are "out to doominate others". No way to cahnge that. But it has nothing to do specifically with BB. Or not more typical to BB than any other Bible-study or prophet-study group (Jewish or Christian of even Islamic) as it always was somoene's goal in the past too...Why let it (the unjust attacks) passively happen?

/Of course to claim that only Kabbalah may help against unjust attacks is something that has to be proven and Kabbalists always did their best to try exactly this: to claim that their so called "inner" code is more effective than the regular religious reading or the irreligios answer.) They /Kabbalists/ state clearly that they consider "israel" to be a synonym for "someone-looking-for-spirituality/prophecy/God/Altruism" and not an ethnic group.

So to s ay that it wd be nice if the world wd be led by people "looking-for-spirituality" is simply saying that it wd be nice if we wd be led by wise/altruistic people...

So what? Every group (and every nation and everybody
individually says that it wd be nice if we wd be less egoistic etc...and we wd be led by non-ego led is a legitimate goal.)

It is perfectly possible to go to any library with some Judaica section and read about Ashlag and his Lurianic concepts and other Kabbalistic movements in the present and in the past /I am teaching Jewish History at a University/ : they - the concepts of "kabbalah" - do exist and they do have a poetic surrealistic logic, /as you may see it at the online Kabbalist cousres, easiest among them is BB because it is free/ and yes, these can be effectively used (if wanted) for some people who want some inner change.

It can be shown that there are similar concepts of inner processes in many therapy theories, like the basic and original form ot today'ss therapy movements: Freudism (Or Melanie Klein among them) - there is nothing inherently absurd in these teachings (except that sometimes those exagerations appear, like : "you will only understand this when you reach the Screen..." But any psychanalist can say, "you will feel more healed when you will sublimate your Superego's harsh demands an the like..." /or "when you will learn to Contain Mother's projected Depression") It is a harmless teaching./But of cousre there are always extreme situations when a harmless teacjhing caused havoc or tragedy even.) It is like when you tell someone: hey, smoking is dangerous...If you stop you will feel better...because you will respect yself for yr discipline...Obviously, if I do not stop smoking I will not feel this extra selfrespect (in kabbalese "extra Light" - only after trying some non-egoist inner direction.)

What I want to say is that this is a legitimate teaching process (with groups and with online groups), the texts are really existing poetic "drashas"( "homilies", essays") and still, there are imperfect human games between the teachers and students /as I read it here/, but we are humans, and this site or these groups are not obligatory.

So there is no coercion. No financial issues. /Not more than in most schools and temples and human groups...etc./ Yes, maybe it is cultish with a traditional extra reverence /koved/ given to the main teacher /an old man/, so what? - but most Bible-study groups generally have a well-versed leader or a Rav-like leader: the Bible has complicated texts and there are many different ways to interpret it and knowledge and teaching and leading is simply needed.

There are non-Kabbalist neo-Orthodox teachings that are rather similar to the Kabbala (where most concepts sem from legitimate Talmudic wise men), like that of Rabbi Soloveitchik from the 1960s or that of Rabbi Shamshon Rafael Hirsch from 18870s, or Musar texts from the 1980s or Luzatto in the 1700s/- all Neo-Orthodox leaders - where the main idea (that the Ego is the Bad Isntinct =yetzer Hara - and that the Creator /yes the god-name in Hebrew can be rendered that way it is an abstract Existentiator concept personalized) the Creator does appear to certain prophets (=spiritual men, kabbalists) and most "precepts" /mitzvot"/ are ways to reach this elusive "prophetic-spiritual-godly non-Ego "level" and "coorect" use of those Biblical symbols (mitzvot-precepts/ will lead simple people to some kind of prophetic-spiritual-non-ego level...Hopefully. If...If certain inner "screens" are "dfeveoped". Yes. that is how we humans function. We can count only if we learn the numbers. We can understand a text that consists of numbers (like Hebrew texts with the Uniique Future-Maker god) only if we learn how to "compute the "secret" codes of those number-letters.

There is nothing on this free site (and I do read Hebrew) that sounds "absurd or unacceptable" from a maintsream point of view. Exceot the popularzing simplifying tone, but I think it is impossible to not use this if we really think that simple people should be taught these psychological self-terapy methods. /The level of personal involvment can be unhealthy with any human cause...leaderless and ego-less movements like Greenpeace or Communism or Liberalism - really I do not want to judhge these movements just mention them - can lead some people to the same absurd maniac grandiose psychotic level: but these are unhinged or inbalanced individuals that are hopefully the exception in these movements too. And eventually they lose their power if most other adherents keep their sobriety.

I simply find this BB site informative as a teacher of History (of Jusaims and religions). I do not say I want to give them the right to decide instead of myself on my own life questions. (If someone uses them that way that is their problem: but sometimes you can use a "cult slogan" successfully - a personal understanding can be the opposite of the cult's intent for instance...)

But I did arrive to similar (Bible-understanding) results without Laitman or Ashlag on many basic questions (like "israel" being a non-ethnic group doing queries about a supposed Higher Power ..and some other ideas which it wd be to wordy to go into now and here. Or "egosm" being harmful and altruism bringing "extra lights"...)
But okay, some cults are really weird or dangerous. Their (BBs) stance on homosexuality stems from their idea of everything being Female-Male interaction (like Yin and YAng) - and from this they arrive to this solution which was described in previous posts. But I did not see any personal attack against those who happen to be practicing homos: and most Orthodox people and most non-religious people in non-Kabbalist life also have misgivings about unorthodox relationships: I do not say it is okay for them, but it is understandable and not stressed in an opressive way. Even if a group has some strange notions, it can still have some inspired side-effect on some people...maybe they are mistaken in the leader-cult or some other stuff: possible, but the ancient writings they are based upon do lead them to these conclusions. Obviously if someone is attracted to such teachings, amybe the attracted person has some personal issue that is setteld by exactly these /erroneous/ tenets. /I mean I know men who were abandoned or abused in diffeernet ways in their childhood so they thend to be uncomfortable with all-out gays./ Until it is not obligatory I do not see the danger in BB. (And I have seen many other "cults" with shady finances and extreme leader-cults...and even there I say people who needed just this level ot outer control to adjust their loives. So although I agree these gruops may be dangeraous and there is a need to get infos on them- still their beveficient side shd not be forgotten. It exists. Some people need some strange system of idea and some vicarous fathering.

BB is on the "light" edge of this "cultishness" maybe (seen from the many sharings telling us they did not find any danger either.) . Rabbis are group-leaders (and even "civil rabbis" exist, so the non-official title of "Rav" is harmless but still questionable) and some people enjoy group life (as some others enjoy marriage and some others enjoy other versions of human relationship experiences or some do enjoy staying single. All is mixed: everything can be dangerous.) I agree it is important that a group shd be clean on finances (if it uses public finances)..but since time immemorial, rabbis and Jewish groups simply lived on charity: and it is reasonable to not give info on charity as it is a psychologically sane idea that no one shd do charity for self-aggrandizeing hence it shd be secret. It is reasobale to try to have leaders under community control : but to suggest that a Rabbi or a self-styled spiritual leader shd someohow be "impeachable"(if he does not forcefully oblige anyone to anything and is doing only reular Bible-based text-elucidating=teaching), well that is simply ridiculous.
As I said I find Zionism a legitimate self-defensive reaction (stimes forced into doubtful ventures like any human movement), so I find it repulsive when someone cannot saíy anything againnst a little Kabbalist group than that abusive "Word-Domination" slander- theer are many goups out to dominate the word, and some of them start exactly by shouting about "Jews Want to Dominate the olrd"...This is why I wanted to point out the harmless sides of BB. (Of course it is a pop-art version or real Kabbalah texts. /But most Kabblists wanted to popularize difficult Biblical texts./ But harmlessly pop-art. Yes it is trying to popularize some mystical concepts. As most kabbalists hoped - it is said also by prophets in the Bible - that an era will come when all people will try to learn from these "israel"people (the word "jew" - Yehodi also means Echoer/Grateful - similar to Israel: those who want to depend - to be led - by/from a Higher Power...maybe it is a psychological problem to want to depend on an inner "alterego", but clearly it is a frequent human trait.)When many other people will want to learn who is the Creator /YHWH is a form of the verb to Be or to Make-Be in future tense, like Will-Be-er...But there is no philosophy that does not try to shed light to this /supposed/ All-embracing Higher Force etc...Okay I stop. Clearly no way to dissuade people to harbor paranoid feelings about harmless groups. /And no way to dissuade others to be foerever attached to really dangerous and deceptive other groups./ And most groups are mixed: stimes good stimes not-good, like we, individual people also are mixed and average: simetimes good stimes less the Kabbalists say: partly Ego partly (hopefully) Altruistic.:-) To put it shortly: BB's text is harmless or /for those interested in Bible studies/ even has some good sides... (Zionism is not its main feature - considering they do not coinsider Jews an ethnic goup but a spiriual inner state attainable by anyone (and this can be argued to be a shade in the the original meaning too) - but I consider anti-Zionism a questionable claim - to use this as a demonizer is distasteful seeing who else uses it /Nazis, Sovietists and terrorists/ ), the leader is a humorful person, all groups lead participants to regular conflicts...the danger in BB is not bigger than in any other study (or other) group. Plus: even harmful groups may really be needed at some point in some hurt people's life. /It shd be left to the discernement of individuals how they dispense with their money. I wd only try to cry "Halt!" if a group or leader is robbing people: forcing them to stay in the group and pay him. /

Re: Bnei Baruch anyone?
Posted by: Habibi ()
Date: March 31, 2009 02:25AM

Hey, outtathere. Could you say more about this?

"Laitman is a con man who has motives beyond the publicly stated, and who wants YOUR money to further them."

Re: Bnei Baruch anyone?
Date: June 22, 2009 12:30AM

Hello everyone,

First of all, I am immensely grateful for this ressouce. I have studied and suffered from BB indoctrination big-time. This forum seems to be the ONLY ! resource on the net among all the Laitman Propaganda Sites that actually offer alternative perspectives, or, at least, an open, critical debate.

Thanx to all of you.

I am very much interested in making this knowledge more accessible to others so i launched a twitter account to spread the word, anoymous, of course, because i already was threatened by BB members and don't want them to mess with me any longer:

please let's continue this fruitful discussion and maybe save a few souls some trouble on the way

all the best


Re: Bnei Baruch anyone?
Posted by: Tamas ()
Date: July 21, 2009 01:11AM

I find that your arguments against Bnei Baruch comes from the sympathetic feelings for democratic values. If an organization does not accept inside movements against itself, you find it just undemocratic, therefore bad. But related to the subjects, and the complexity of the subjects, I think questioning the main Kabbalist teachings does not lead a constructive progress. Rather it wastes time, efforts, and energy, and destroys Unity - does not make it possible to reach the promised helpful attachment to each other. The BB approach to those who cannot accept the stated system is simple: you think what you want to think. Surely it is not an waited situation, when you feel that you don't agree with the values presented there, but really, no one forces you to keep yourself in-team if you don't wish to.

As for wanting our money - BB does't require monetary involvement outside Israel.

About being gay-friendly or not - I think BB gives less attention to this question, than it is present in the media. I don't think they publicly against it, and no promoting gay relations either. They are promoting the ordinary lifestyle, marriage, workplace, and so on... but I honestly don't think they are making an issue about your private sexual feelings. They promoting instead that everyone of us to have a more or less normal life, and they emphasize that each of us has a different path they should go on until they reach spirituality. In regard that Kabbalah is the one and only way to reach the spiritual status of oneself, those Kabbalist instructors I've already spoken said that Kabbalah is a safe and surely accomplishable way of gaining a life without suffering. But is you do have a closer look to the study material, it has certain similarities with buddhism, where the way of winning over suffering and gain Nirvana is the way of overcoming of the Desire - which can be equal that Kabbalah states as Desire to Have. So shortly summarizing what I wish to express with this is that there are other ways, but they operate with different language - and Kabbalah tries to be up-to-date in language.

Stepping backward to the mentioned complexity of the studies - yes, they are in a way complex, but on the other hand they are quite simple: manage in your life (soul) that your attitude towards other people becomes giving-oriented (altruistic) instead of looking the oppurtunities to take more and more for yourself for the sake of your own (egoistic approach).

Don't you think that in these times of depression, there should be movements which make it important to care about each others? They do it in a way that accepts no questioning, but I think the handling these issues is purely for that purpose to keep the group together, unified for their previously mentioned goal.
Sad, that you are looking the ways to attack this group, and describe it as a harmful organization - I just cannot imagine what sort of organization would you accept with no word? Some self-attacking organizations in the name of democracy? Or some organization which has a leader with no respect?


Re: Bnei Baruch anyone? The late Baba Sali
Posted by: richardmgreen ()
Date: September 04, 2009 02:56AM

I am going to do an expose of this "praying father," the miracle worker next. He was the leader of Moroccan Jewry and did things like making amulets .

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