MikeBB:

OK. You have stated that,

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10's of thousands of dollars annually. This money comes from members of Bnei Baruch.

And that the paid staff,

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consists of about 10 (or fewer) men and women

Sounds like around $100,000 dollars per year, but you say that isn't a detailed annually published budget that is audited.

You explain,

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Could they ask [Laitman] to stop teaching them? Of course.

What does this mean exactly?

Are you saying that BB "committees" could dismiss Laitman from BB and that he would then no longer have the right to be associated with or use the name of BB through such a committee decision according to the BB bylaws?

Have you read and reviewed these specific bylaws and provisions?

You say,

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We do not believe we are better than anyone else.

What other groups studying the Kabbalah by name specifically, which would you recommend as an alternative to studing with BB that is equal to BB spiritually and intellectually?

MikeBB:

OK. You have stated that,
Quote:
10's of thousands of dollars annually. This money comes from members of Bnei Baruch.


And that the paid staff,
Quote:
consists of about 10 (or fewer) men and women


Sounds like around $100,000 dollars per year, but you say that isn't a detailed annually published budget that is audited.
[/quote]

What I said was there is a financial committee made up of vollenteer members that keep a full accounting for the entire membership. All members of BB have access to this information. You seem to misunderstand. We are not seeking anyone's approval here.

We teach Kabbalah totally free to anyone who wishes to learn; that is our sole purpose and we are not seeking money for this education. In other words, what is your point? Are you actually determining whether an organization is a cult based upon whether they make public financial statements of their organization when they do not rely on the public for their financial well being?

Quote

What does this mean exactly?

Are you saying that BB "committees" could dismiss Laitman from BB and that he would then no longer have the right to be associated with or use the name of BB through such a committee decision according to the BB bylaws?

Have you read and reviewed these specific bylaws and provisions?

The name Bnei Baruch belongs to the organization and I am sure that even though Michael Laitman founded the organization, if the group asked him to stop teaching he would not be worried about a stupid name. Again, is this what you are basing your judgment on whether a group is a cult or not? I am not up on Israeli law regarding these matters so I cannot speak in terms of legalities. If you are curious, I would suggest you seek a good international attorney to answer such a question.

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You say,
Quote:
We do not believe we are better than anyone else.


What other groups studying the Kabbalah by name specifically, which would you recommend as an alternative to studing with BB that is equal to BB spiritually and intellectually?

I would never make such a suggestion to a person. Where to study from should be determined solely by the person who has the desire to understand Kabbalah. A person should seek a group they have some confidence in and feel comfortable with. That is an individual decision and certainly not for me to make.

By the way, we teach to thousands of people around the world. People come and go in terms of studying. Most of these people we do not even know, nor do we insist they send in personal information in order to view the lessons. Personally, in order to continue your examination here, I would think a different tac is in order since you are talking about an organization based solely on providing this wisdom free to any and all who wish to learn.

Kindest Regards,

Mike

Dear moderator,
I'm the writer of that article already quoted in the beginning of this conversation: [katot.org]. (English is not my mother language, so please forgive my mistakes)

I remember when Mike first arrived in Israel, about 3 years ago, and I can tell you he's really a nice and enthusistic person (though he doesn't need me to tell), very serious and emotional as well. I remember him crying once, when his time to leave the country had come. And I can say that most people in there are good people, meaning innocent people, not necessarily naive. They (we) all started with the best intentions and only gradually got used to Bnei Baruch way of life. Btw, Mike is not leaving inside the central group in Israel, as I used to, so his point of view can be incomplete.

I only want to precise this:

- As it is said, Bnei Baruch is not about money. Working people in there receive low salaries and Laitman shows quite a modest standard of life. Nevertheless there is absolutely not (or at least there was not when I was there) transparency about the use of money. Except for the leader and a very restricted number of his followers none knew how much money enters and how much money is spended and how. We all supposed most of it was for distributing the ideology of Kabbalah through books, videos, internet and such.
Unlike what Mike says, donations are free but only til a certain stage. If one [b:12795b559f]really[/b:12795b559f] wants to study Kabbalah and develop spiritually, one must give the 10% of his salary to the group - there is a spiritual reason for that, Laitman says, and he can also explain it to you. He himself paid it for years to his teacher and that's a practice of all chassidic groups of Judaism. But I must tell you that for an European sensitivity like mine (which made it only my problem), that practice was intrusive at all, memory of hundred years of ecclesiastic tithe.

- Mike says that the group could dismiss Laitman. That's "legally" true, but actually a total fake. That group without the guidance of that teacher wouldn't exist anymore. They would vanish in confusion after a few hours. When I was there, it happened sometimes that Laitman said: "I'm going to leave you, so finally you'll start doing your work!" But that was only a way to scare us: without him the group would be lost, but he without the group is lost as weel - like any other leader, without followers what would he be leader of? As a matter of fact he never dared to leave the group and Israel. He was just woofing at his sheep...

That's it from me for now. But look, if you're trying to find the bugs in Bnei Baruch you shouldn't look at simple things like money or sex. They're above that. They have other plans: what do you know, for instance, about the foundation of the State of Kabbalah or the world ruled by a small group of wise kabbalists? It seems paranoid ("what is that, a plan of world domination? are you anti-Semitic?") but it's perfeclty lined up with Laitman's teachings.
Bnei Baruch are not only chosen but, as to say, chosen in between the chosen. They are the cream of the world, they think, and those who won't agree with them... "Well", Laitman says " we'll see how to face them. What matters is that they won't bother us." (that's all recorded btw). What Mike and other people like him, I mean living far from ISrael, don't realize yet - or perhaps they've never heard about it (or they don't care) - is that they won't ever achieve anything in their position. The teacher says (never publicly, God forbid!) that only jews and married males studiyng in the israeli group have some chance to acheive spirituality. Others are only steps of their ladder - forgive me the brutal metaphor.

Best regards,
Gian Maria Turi

MikeBB:

You have not really responded to the questions asked and instead became rather evasive and avoided answering them candidly and directly.

You never specified how Laitman might be officially dismissed, citing any specific bylaws, specific process or proceedure that is in place.

However, Jama observed,

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...that the group could dismiss Laitman. That's "legally" true, but actually a total fake. That group without the guidance of that teacher wouldn't exist anymore. They would vanish in confusion after a few hours.

Jama also said,

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there is absolutely not (or at least there was not when I was there) transparency about the use of money. Except for the leader and a very restricted number of his followers none knew how much money enters and how much money is spended and how.

You seem to confirm this by never citing a published budget by BB that details salaries and group expenses.

And if you cannot cite such specifics this leads anyone reading this thread to surmise that there is no published and detailed budget, nor any process provided through a BB constitution and/or bylaws, which might provide for the democratic removal of Laitman.

If this is not correct you may cite BB documents and the details within them to disprove this.

Also, you never responded directly to the question regarding other groups studying the Kabbalah that you might recommend as an alternative to studying with BB that you consider equal to BB both spiritually and intellectually?

Your response was instead,

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I would never make such a suggestion to a person.

This seems to indicate you think no other group studying Kabbalah is equal to BB and no other teacher equal to Laitman. If this impression is false please cite some specific groups and teachers by name that you regard as equal to BB and Laitman.

Such an admission doesn't mean that you are making a decision for anyone else, but rather indicates whether or not you see BB and Laitman as exclusive and above all other groups and teachers regarding the study of Kabbalah.

Rick you have a good point about the finances, at the very least there should be a released financial statement even if it isn't independent.

I disagree with you on two other points. The first is the removal of Laitman as the teacher. Kabbalah teachers are very hard to come by and each brings his own method. It would be pointless to remove Laitman because there would be no replacement and the group would have to disband. Other teachers have their own "schools" and it would probably be a lot easier to just go to those schools instead of trying to find a replacement for Laitman. I'm not aware of any Kabbalah teachers that don't run their own schools, so I'm not sure where a replacement for Laitman would come from. If you disagree with Laitman, you would merely go to a different school.
The second point I disagree with is having to suggest another place of equal value. In my town there are nearly a dozen houses of worship to attend. You would never go there and ask the priest/rabbi/minister/pastor to name a place of equal value because each one would say that there's is the best -- and that's why there are DIFFERENT houses of worship. Each one thinks it's the best and there's nothing wrong with that. I believe Mike clarified his answer when he expressed that there are other options and you can research those options and choose what's right for you. Mike isn't saying everyone must join Bnei Baruch, he's just saying he wont suggest any group (Bnei Baruch included), that it's a personal decision.

skippypb:

The point is the exclusive notions of spiritual elitism within the group.

Also, the form of government within the group.

Is it democratic, with a constitution and bylaws that guarantee checks and balances, or is the group essentially authoritarian and run by one man?

Personality-driven groups are often problematic, especially when they have no meaningful safeguards.

Don't all religions claim to have the one spiritual path? My devout Christian friends think Jesus is the one and frown upon other religions and paths. I'm not seeing why this matters in the case of Bnei Baruch, it's the same thing as any mainstream ideology.

I understand what you mean by personality-driven groups and how that can be dangerous. But that doesn't mean that it IS dangerous, right? Kabbalah is tricky because it isn't as simple as just reading the text in front of you. It must be taught. With so few teachers, you aren't really left with many options. Getting rid of any teacher would make the entire group fall apart because there just isn't a replacement available. The only realistic options are to go to another group or to drop Kabbalah altogether. Leaving Bnei Baruch is obviously not a problem. check the forums which stretch back a few years and you'll see that people come and go all the time. Going to another group is always an option too, but that group would also be personality-driven. You must have a teacher in Kabbalah and there aren't many teachers out there. What's a person to do?

What are your suggestions/thoughts Rick?

skippypb said,

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Don't all religions claim to have the one spiritual path? My devout Christian friends think Jesus is the one and frown upon other religions and paths. I'm not seeing why this matters in the case of Bnei Baruch, it's the same thing as any mainstream ideology.

No not really.

Jerry Falwell and other Christian fundamentalists would acknowledge that other fundamentalist churches are equally spiritual and reasonable alternatives for religious studies and worship.

But MikeBB apparently doesn't acknowledge the same, regarding studying the Kabbalah outside of BB.

We ae discussing the exclusive claims, commitment of BB members and spiritual elitism fostered by a single organization, not a religion generally.

First let me say that I remember when Jama came to BB and also when he left. He is a great guy and I am happy to call him a friend both then and now. If you are reading the post, Jama, fire me an e-mail and let me know how you are doing.

Rick, with regard to your two primary issues:

Financial - I have attended many meetings in Israel and some exclusively of a financial nature. Unlike Jama, my experience was that financial information was presented to the entire group and discussions held with regard to it. As for public reports, such reports are to protect those wishing to donate money, but we ask no one to donate. I consider it a non-issue.

I have been a member of several strong Christian and especially Baptist churches that did not disclose a blasted thing, even to their private membership. I am heavily involved with the church I attend at my home, a good Baptist church, and it has these issues all the time. Most churches are run by a very select few within the church and voting them out is virtually impossible. Let's not be nieve here.

By the way, the posts about Trinity church in Dallas where I lived for 12 years I found quite entertaining. You have direct evidence of an organization that does meet your criteria for judging them a potential cult, yet it appears that your personal rellationship with them swayed your opinion. Very interesting.

Other Kabbalistic organizations - I would suggest that a person choose any Kabbalistic organization that studies authentic Kabbalistic texts such as the Zohar, The Tree of Life, and Baal HaSulam's commentaries on these writings.

I would strongly suggest the potential student avoid any organization that is constantly soliciting funds and asking them to purchase physical tokens such as red strings and kabbalah water.

It would seem that if you do not have a balance sheet made available to the public and a list of optional organizations by name, that you consider this reason enough to label an organization a cult. Oh boy, there went half of the independent churches in the US.

I have deep respect for those who help others to get out of destructive cults and I have had a bit of personal experience with helping others escape from such situations myself. These organizations do great harm and cause a vast amount of pain to many people.

But if based from these two items you have listed you have decided that Bnei Baruch is a cult, I see no reason for further discussions here. So given that you do not have public financials and I do not give the names of specific organizations and tell people they should look for their selves based on the above criteria, the point blank question is "Do you consider Bnei Baruch a cult?" If so, simply state it and we will not waste anymore time.

Kindest Regards,

Mike

MikeBB:

Based upon your responses and Jama's comments BB seems to be a questionable and problematic organization, which I would not recommend to anyone.

Thank you for acknowleding Jama as a reputable source.

BTW--There is no private messaging function until after 10 approved posts.

Fortunately, though you seem to be unable to identify any by name specifically as equal to BB, there any number of alternative places of learning where people can study Judaism, Torah and Kabbalah, that have no such complaints or problems.

I suggest those interested contact a local synagogue or Jewish Federation in their area. There are also some excellent educational resources such as Yeshiva University, Brandeis University and most State Universities have a Hillel Center, which can be an good resource.

You have been evasive and repeatedly not answered questions. And the pattern of your posts here has been similar to those involved in groups called "cults."

Anyone interested in comparing patterns can look at other threads on this message board about the Kabbalah Centre, Landmark Education, Scientology and the Potter's House to get the feel of that same pattern of obfuscation.

Please understand that you offering that churches you know of don't have meaningful accountability or financial transparency is not a meaningful response to questions raised about BB.

Overwhelmingly, most Baptist and Protestant churches do have meaningful accountability through democratically elected church govenment, financial accounting proceedures and reports as mandated by the denomination, constitutions and/or bylaws.

Perhaps you have a history of associating with churches and groups that don't, but as any Southern Baptist, American Baptist or Baptist Convervative would tell you, your experience would be the exception and not the rule.

As far as the Trinity Foundation is concerned the Ross Institute database has a subsection with articles about that organization.

See [www.culteducation.com]

There is also a link to a critical site about the Trinity Foundation at the Links page and a critical book listed at "Books" within this database.

A thread on this message board also discusses Trinity, which has been ongoing for some time. Many of the posts on that thread are quite critical of the organization.

Frankly Mike, once again, by attempting to attack me personally all you do is make yourself seem like a cult apologist, anxious to divert attention away from questions raised about your group and leader.

Your performance here has actually helped to support Jama's statements and furthered whatever suspicion there is about BB.

And please try to understand that simply because you declare something a "non-issue" doesn't make it so.