I think I may bow out of the discussion at this point. Skippy, it seems to me that you will do what you will do, regardless. You have invested a good amount of your time into the study, you think it is valuable and reasonable, and from the distance that you are from the group itself in Israel, you see no obvious indications of trouble. So be it!
As to the political aspirations of Kabbalists, well, I'm not going to say anymore. You will have to continue to watch, and consider [i:488f10f5ab]everything[/i:488f10f5ab] they do (which requires much more than just studying the online material and accepting everything TK and MK and others tell you). Take up a study, for instance, of the world-wide organizations that Laitman is now active in, and ask yourself if you are comfortable with that, and whether that seems to go beyond a purely spiritual endeavor and on into something... more.
One last thing. You were aware, I trust, of Laitman's involvement with the scientists who were part of the movie [i:488f10f5ab]What the Bleep Do We Know[/i:488f10f5ab]? Please tell me you knew about that. (There is a video of all that on the kabbalah.info site--google "What the Bleep" on the site and you'll find it.) Anyway, the people involved in that movie, including the producer, include---wait for it---JZ Knight, and many of the others are directly involved with her/IT, and one has been a student for 12 years. Does that name mean anything to you? She is the woman who claims to be [i:488f10f5ab]channelling a 35,000 year old spirit warrior named Ramtha[/i:488f10f5ab], and runs an outfit in Washington I think it is, called Ramtha's School of Enlightenment. This is pure lunatic asylum stuff. I know it seems a puzzle. It was to me too. I will leave it to you to ferret it all out, just like I did!

WAIT! Is it a (gasp!) Cult??? Oh, oh my, I almost forgot! Go here, quick, no delay:::::
[www.culteducation.com]
Please be sure to read the articles esp. that deal with Bleep, esp. this one
[www.culteducation.com]

Skippy, my friend, Laitman aligns himself with the scientists in that movie, (and seems particular buddies with Satinover) and claims that quantum theory and the like is just old hat to all the old crusty wise Jewish kabbalists.

But as one reviewer of the movie said, the title would better be, [i:488f10f5ab]Quantum Bullbleep[/i:488f10f5ab].

And so now you have my opinion of Laitman, Bnei Baruch, and kabbalah, all wrapped up in one neat little phrase.

Hi all. I am new to this forum but I wanted to start out by saying that I myself learned at the Bnei Baruch for three years and left but not for the negative reasons that have dominated this forum.

I think that the nature of what the Bnei Baruch deals with is very foreign to many people of the West. Spirituality is a very Eastern subject and the elements that make up Kabbalah are very much aligned with it.

For what the BB provides it pretty much leaves it up to the participants to take out of it what they want. I find it highly distasteful to hear such criticism about a group that provides so much for free. There are many, including myself, who highly benefited from BB and I would say that those that express criticism towards them should look to themselves and their own life frustrations for the source of their anger and disappointment.

No one at BB ever forces anyone to do anything. They do follow a Kabbalist, Rav Yehuda Ashlag, who is high accepted in mainstream Jewish circles.

All spiritual systems require faith in the first phase and BB is no exception to this rule. That doesn't make them demons.

Enough of this criticism! I want to say that the BB is doing a great job and I encourage anyone who seeks to achieve high levels of spirituality to use the BB's materials as much as possible.

Michael Hallak-Stamler

[outtathere], I would like to continue my studies with Bnei Baruch, but I'm not going to continue them if it seems dangerous. I asked you for your stories that you claim to have, but only heard about things unrelated to the actual study of Kabbalah. All I've gathered is that I shouldn't give them money or join any political associations without in-depth research. You still sound quite bitter (Hell hath no fury...) and you are not producing anything meaningful in relation to studying Kabbalah with Bnei Baruch. You essentially want me to blindly believe that you are right and they are evil without giving any support.

Michael, criticism is healthy. No one should be involved in a potentially dangerous group without knowing the risks. Exploring those risks is not a problem. If Bnei Baruch has nothing to hide, then there is no harm that could possibly happen from the exchanges on this board. The "criticism" here is still far less than the criticisms against mainstream Christian denominations in the United States. Not to pry, but if you had such wonderful experiences with Bnei Baruch for three years, why would you leave? That makes no sense to me. There is so much to learn that three years would barely cover the proverbial tip of the iceberg, so if you were getting so much from it, why walk away?

So then, tell us why [i:d87bc5ee4b]you[/i:d87bc5ee4b] "left".
And how involved were you, exactly? Did you live with the main group in Israel? Did you attend their Congresses? Were you part of a physical group?
By the way, you might reconsider your premise that an organization that just gives away so much information is not suspect on the basis of that fact alone. I'm still kicking [i:d87bc5ee4b]myself[/i:d87bc5ee4b] for thinking that for as long as it did.

Skippy, no, I don't want you to blindly believe anything--that's why I wanted you to look at other things besides just the basic information, for cryin out loud, which is something you don't seem willing to do.
Go ahead and study Kabbalah! What does it matter to me? If the basic ideas of kabbalah in general make sense to you, I'm not going to try and talk you out of it. It's not dangerous per se, no more so than a study of any other religion, I guess, except a man might be in danger of thinking he's almost a Kabbalist! And it certainly doesn't really matter to me if one more person insists on turning their mind into a pretzel trying to acquire an imaginary sixth sense in order to attain adhesion with the invisible Sky Father, aka the Creator. Hey, if the fellow's letter to katot.org didn't start some serious critical thinking on your part, and BB's association with the barking mad Ramtha bleepers doesn't make you stop and wonder, well, then, I'm done.

But you know what? Don't do what I did for months (all ending about 6 months ago). I resisted doubts and misgivings and turned my rational thinking mind over to them, thinking, well, I'm not a Kabbalist, I'm not a man (they are very very chauvanistic), and I'm not a Jew, so what do I know?? I WANTED to be wrong in fact. I kept thinking, this doubting is just one of those expected tests from the Creator, this is my opportunity to resist my resistance, and practice that "faith above reason" thing. I thought, I need to keep reading, I need to keep watching the video clips of Rav's daily lectures. (Do you watch those, by the way? I not only watched them, I was one of the people transcribing them!) All these other people are getting it, and advancing, and I'm not--what's wrong with me? I kept thinking, I'm going to lose it, I'm not going to get it in this lifetime... and I kept on thinking there was something wrong with ME. Until I got a serious personal wake-up call. It was one of those epiphanies, really, like getting thwocked by an emotional 2x4. And I got it. It wasn't me, it was them, and what was worse, I had done it before! Well crap, enough already.

But listen to me, you want me to tell you stories? Well, I don't want to do that, because anyway it's all just my stuff, and I don't want to expose it or take the time. Plus, I have made a lot of, shall we say, extrapolations to the present experience based on lots of prior (cult)(bad) experience. A "been there done that" sort of thing, like I alluded to above. But the stories really aren't the point anyway, the point, the thing that matters is----does it make sense? Does it hold up to rational scrutiny? I got to a point in MY life where that's what was most important. If that's not what's important to you, if what's important is the search for a Creator, and an acceptance of a Jewish/Zionist inspired worldview (and you can't , you just can't get around that with Kabbalah), then, I'd say you're in the right place--keep on keepin on.

But it seems rather odd to me, really, that you said in the beginning that you came to this (cult) forum looking for information about Bnei Baruch. Well, that implies that you wondered about them, yes? You had some doubts, some serious questions? Well then, why in the world are you all about resisting what you were looking for? Why are you defending your position now?

You see, I had 99% made my mind up before I posted here. I posted here for the other 1%, the nail in the coffin (concerning the organization, not the ideology, which I was way done with), which same came from another source two days after I posted. I didn't come to the forum with the desire to tell anyone anything at all actually.

Bitter? Nah--if anything, just sad. But this too shall pass.

Hey, here's an idea, ask Tony, or Mike, or Igal some questions about the Bleep movie, and the Ramtha connection. I'd love to know what sort of bullbleep answer they give to that, just for grins.

I agree that criticism is an important and healty process, but without a framework and honesty it quickly turns into an ugly and unreliable mode that does not provide any meaningful results.

People have their experiences and sharing them is OK, but it is a different matter to arrive at conclusions only based on one's own experiences.

I left the BB not because of problems with them but after realizing that their standards were too high for me at the time. I am jealous of those that are willing to devote themselves to pursuing spirituality using a system that was followed by kabbalists for thousands of years. If you read their biographies you will see that their level of devotion and committment was all inclusive -- it took over their entire lives. That kind of passion is to be commended in any pursuit of happiness. But most of us, especially those that grew up in the West, cannot tolerate such ascetism and I believe the bulk of the criticism directed towards the BB stems from this.

Let us criticize constructively. Let's leave out the invective and then let each decide what they want to do.

Quote
mhallakstamler
I left the BB not because of problems with them but after realizing that their standards were too high for me at the time.

Let me paste here something from BB's information about its upcoming "Convention":

What is Kabbalah, anyway? Simply put, it's a practical method that lets you discover and step into your best, most optimal, happiest state of being.[/color:30ce6dbef7]
[www.kabbalah.info]

Gee, doesn't that just sound so nice, so inviting, so [i:30ce6dbef7]easy[/i:30ce6dbef7]? [In fact, it's so smarmy, it's starting to remind me of the Kabbalah Centres.] But as you yourself found out, it's actually a misleading crock of crap. It isn't practical and it isn't happy, and unless you're prepared, ultimately, to build your whole life around the "method," it isn't going to "work," either.
Wait, as a matter of fact, even if you do, it doesn't!

Quote
mhallakstamler
I am jealous of those that are willing to devote themselves to pursuing spirituality using a system that was followed by kabbalists for thousands of years.

And how many people have reached kabbalistic "enlightenment" during those thousands of years using the system?

Quote
mhallakstamler
If you read their biographies you will see that their level of devotion and committment was all inclusive -- it took over their entire lives.

A good number of reasonable people would point out that this is not a psychologically healthy thing... is it "enlightenment"--or madness?

Quote
mhallakstamler
That kind of passion is to be commended in any pursuit of happiness.

I don't think it has to be that hard. And besides, every false guru and every tyrant in the history of the world has had that sort of passion as they pursued their happy, power-mad trips. At any rate, you commend it, but you yourself just couldn't hack it? That's a rather sad situation, don't you think?

Quote
mhallakstamler
But most of us, especially those that grew up in the West, cannot tolerate such ascetism and I believe the bulk of the criticism directed towards the BB stems from this.

We can't "tolerate" it in the West because we have more sense, generally speaking, [i:30ce6dbef7]and because it's ridiculous and it hurts! [/i:30ce6dbef7]

My dear fellow you have been twice damned. You believed them in the first place. Now, after you believed them and gave over a large portion of your life to doing what they said only to find it too "high" for you (in other words, the wonderful, very old method failed you), NOW you blame YOURSELF and Western culture for the failure, while simultaneously defending them against criticism! To blazes with that crap I say!

Quote
mhallakstamler
Let us criticize constructively. Let's leave out the invective and then let each decide what they want to do.

Were you ever a preacher? This was starting to sound like a sermon.
Maybe it's about time you stopped being so damned "nice"--and insisting that everyone else play the nice little game along with you like some sort of hall monitor--and got a little bit mad. Because you, like so many trusting others, have been had.

"outtathere" -- Yes, I enjoy the study of Kabbalah. I have no problem with that at all. You are more than welcome to be an atheist or agnostic or whatever term you feel best applies to you. But to expect others to just agree with you is unfair.

I came here for information on Bnei Baruch not because I had any suspicions but because it's the smart thing to do. There are so many potentially dangerous groups out there and I had very nearly started classes at the Kabbalah Centre... but then found this website and ran away as fast as I could. So before becoming too involved with a small, fairly unknown group like Bnei Baruch, I wanted to make sure the air was clear. People get involved in cults all the time because they don't do the research first. Hence the research.

As of right now, unless Rick says "Warning! Warning!" I will continue to study Kabbalah with Bnei Baruch. I wont go to their Congresses or read their books about physical life, but I will study Kabbalah through them. I haven't seen or heard anything that indicates that is even the slightest bit dangerous.

I also find your alleged stories to be beyond suspicious. You claim to have no time to tell them, yet you spend plenty of time explaining why someone should just believe you without hearing stories. As for no desire to share, well that's just no desire to help others if you're so right. I thank you for giving the red flag to some political designs that Bnei Baruch may have.

As far as anti-female views, I take those with the same anti-gay views. Just because they say so doesn't make them right, especially with their religion intertwined with their non-religious teachings. I don't have to believe that females are any different.

Note the warning signs previously posted.

Are the leaders of the group accountable to a democratically elected board? Can they be disciplined or if need be fired by that board?

How does the group's constitutional bylaws provide for that?

Is there meaningful financial transparency through an independently audited and published financial statement that discloses all salaries, compensation and expenses?

If the group is a religious nonprofit effort these are meaningful questions to ask.

Without such safeguards the group may be little more than a totalitarian structure with little if any meaningful accountability.

These are specific "warning signs" to watch out for.

Hey Skippy--

As SpongeBob said to Plankton, when the latter said he was fomenting a plan to take over the world:

"Well, good luck with that." :roll:


Peace out[/color:a87589d0f5]