Hi Claire,
I am not part of any organization that is involved in a counter-cult watching. I am a private individual that was a key leader in MSI whose eyes have opened to spiritual abuse such as the MSI views on Apostolic Authority, The continued Discipleship Heresy of the 1980’s (control & legalism), and errant Spiritual Fathering Practises. Having been guilty (I was one of the worst) of holding those practices myself from 1982-1990, Then I had my eyes opened, this occured through ministry I received from great men of God like Ed Cole and other brothers in Christ. I am know willing to minister freedom and grace to others that have suffered under MSI’s or any other group (such as The Intl. Church Of Christ) controlling nature. Your assessment of The Fatherhood Doctrine having no basis in biblical practice is exceptionally good. As to the Church in San Marcos, They were a part of MSI but Pastor D.J. pulled out for some of the very same reasons we have mentioned. I don’t know him really well and have never heard him preach. A very good church (great loving hearts & full of life!) that I have spoken at is Crosswind Community Church in San Marcos. The church phone number is 760-761-4922 or you can get more info. From Pastor Adam, at adam@crosswindchurch.org

If I can be of any further help you can e-mail me at
bigtommy@bigtommy.com God Bless You, Tom

I know what you are talking about. Sometime I think that manipulation and control has polluted the church everywhere. Just know that what you wrote about here helped me to define the feeling that I would get inside when I saw the difference between the things preached in this organization and the reality of things done.
The question is how do we fight this spirit? And do we fight it?

I suppose the way we fight it is to help free the sheep from the wolves and back to the true shepherd.

The bible says to come out from among her that we would not share her judgement. I have also seen the same thing to a lesser degree going on practically everywhere.

I have decided to opt out of the institutional church and am part of a house church. That is not to say that house churches cannot become cultic - there is a heavy shepherding group in Florida. But if we seek to practice a relational faith, rather than participate in a hierarchal system, there is at least a greater opportunity.

Sadly, I think it is rare to find a ministry or church that doesn't have garbage going on in the inner circle that is hidden from the rank and file sheeple. We are all sinful and selfish people, and the system promotes rather than discourages this through mutual rather than hierarchal accountability.

I believe the internet is a great boon in this manner. It is, in some ways, like an online house church. Once people get a taste of the blessing of ministering one to another, rather than sitting at the feet of Pastor Goldentongue Hirling and his paid praise band - we realize we don't need them, and they are out of a job and a career path. List owners and moderators tend to cause more harm than good.

I was part of a "discernment" ministry. Then I learned that they fail to discern themselves and refuse to discern the hands that feed them, i.e., pay the bills, provide speaking engagements, book promotion, etc. And we were all volunteers, it wasn't even a keep your job situation. Most pastors are aware of cult leaders and abusive churches in their area, but refuse to speak out for fear of repercussions - politics again. Plus they likely have some skeletons in their own closet.

This is getting long and I am getting off subject, but one more thing. I am familiar with a dangerous cult group called Sound Doctrine, led by Timothy Williams in Enumclaw Washington. They are having a conference at a local Christian conference center. Some of us contacted the center, which checks out all people they allow to use the facility. The answer I got was they checked with local churches and pastors and were told that the group was merely a bit strict. Many of these people are very aware of what is going on.

I regret Tommy Sirotnak (vicnetwork) had a problem with MSI.

I have requested information on his claims. In the meantime however, I would make a few observations:

1. He talks about problems going back to 1982. MSI was not founded until 1994. Some of the MSI leaders' former associations with Maranatha were as worker bees who got hurt, pulled out of there, and learned from those problems. So to paint them with the Maranatha brush is entirely wrong.

2. Tommy draws some strange inference from the fact that I posted on this thread that is entitled somethign about the so called "Spiritual Fathering" movement, whereas I've clearly said I don't agree with the criteria attributed to Spiritual Fathering and don't know any MSI leader who does. This thread merely seemed like a convenient place to defend MSI from some of the snide comments about it.

3. MSI, as far as I can see, having been a leader in my current church since 5 years prior to its association with MSI, seeks to emulate the kind of relationship Paul had with Timothy, a father in the Lord, using discipleship and spiritual reproduction as commended in 2 Tim. 2:2 - "these things you have seen of me among many witnesses, these commit to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also." In the almost-decade we've been associated with MSI, we've seen a handful of people who cannot submit to anyone or anything fall by the wayside, but for the most part, many have grown in the faith through these nurturing, discipleship processes. I have progressed from leadership roles to servant roles sometimes. I do not see a power-structure building or pyramid-type scheme here, as some have suggested. I have been a VLI instructor and director this past year, which is the most advanced teaching they offer at the local church. I have sought to bring others into this teaching level, and let them increase and me decrease. I am planning on bowing out of this advanced position next year in deference to others I am helping to bring to this level, and instead offer to serve as an usher/greeter, which is a role I've never been blessed with in the 13 years I've been in this MSI-associated church in Abilene, Texas. So you can see, I am on a real power trip here! :)

My user name of Haiglaw here refers to the fact that I am a Texas lawyer. My email ID currently is Dama@cox.net, and I invite anyone interested to write me direct if you like. The "dama" means "Dave/attorney/mediator/arbitrator."

Hey Dave,
I wanted to respond to your post and a research into my claims against MSI. First off I wanted to clarify and I have said it a number of times, that there is noble goals and intents in MSI. The vision for reaching youth, the message of lordship, holiness, and church planting are all noble pursuits. But in those pursuits, there has been errant philosophies that go back to MSI’s roots tied to Maranatha.

I was there from the beginning. I was one of the top international leaders and extremely fruitful in the formation and promotion of MSI’s core values. Secondly, not all of MSI would experience the apostolic abuse or controlling discipleship quite to the same extent as in the places I have mentioned. Specially, if you are from Pastor Joe Martin’s (One of the finest men I know. I have preached there a number of times. He doesn’t have an ounce of Legalism in his bones) church or if you are out of the Austin Church with Greg Ball. A recent friend who moved to the Austin Church said that the Austin leadership bears no resemblance to the legalism you would find in LA. But I must remind you, “Were there is a little leaven it will leavens the whole lump.”(1Cor 5:6).

The importance of dealing with these structural errors in MSI, is that 90% of those errant Philosophies and patterns occur at the key nerve centers in MSI (The graduate school, responsible for raising up every new campus worker in this movement, and on the campuses of southern California such as USC, Long Beach State, San Diego St. and UCLA) and with many of the top leaders of the movement nationally, mostly those who came from the Maranatha movement.

Dave, as to your inquiries about my claims I applaud you. But, be ready for the MSI rhetoric of any member who leaves the organization. Note you will first hear the standard line, “Tom (or anyone else), had a problem with following authority. “They were bitter and rebellious.” But once you get passed their personal attacks or diversions that, “these matters are beyond your scope of understanding, press them, “ OK, Let’s assume Tom or anyone else was bitter and rebellious. What about their accusations? Was there any merit to their claims? Were the individual cases looked at? Were the brothers in the dispute brought together to confront these issues as in following biblical precedent, “Go to that brother.”? Why is it that, generally, it is always the one who leaves MSI, that is the guilty party?

Ask for individual phone numbers. There are quite a number of former MSI members who would more than gladly collaborate these stories. With the individuals permission, I am sure most would be glad to talk with you. It should be quite interesting to hear your findings. Matter of fact, that is what led me down my road of freedom from religious abuse, I started to ask questions. Most of the time I was told that I had no right to question leadership and that I had not earned the right to judge the doctrine of MSI. I would be more than glad to sight the names of those who said such things if you would like? Go for it ! Use your lawyer skills, ask and keep asking all the questions you can!

To address your other comments: You said,
1) “He talks about problems going back to 1982. MSI was not founded until 1994. Some of the MSI leaders' former associations with Maranatha were as worker bees who got hurt, pulled out of there, and learned from those problems. So to paint them with the Maranatha brush is entirely wrong.”

My response would be that, the majority of the top leaders of MSI came from a legalistic, apostolic led Maranatha Ministries Intl. The influences have been great. In my opinion, the bible states that “judge not lest you be judged.” From my eyewitness accounts from MSI top leaders such as Broocks and Bonasso, {by there own words} were key players and instigators of Maranatha’s demise in 1989. In my views, the very way they have judged Maranatha founder Bob Weiner is exactly what Morning Star is guilty of.

Only the name is changed. Even though MSI was not founded formally until 1994 there is undeniable history for over two decades and almost exact replica of Maranatha’s doctrine, pattern’s and principles. Furthermore, even one of MSI’s Senior leaders in the West confided in me on a number of occasions that in his view MSI had dishonored their spiritual father and needed to repent before it came back on MSI. Needless to say, No MSI leader has ever repented for this or for their personal responsibility in practicing legalism or miss using authority under the Maranatha administration. There is a direct correlation between the two. Just as you could not deny your families history even if there are some black sheep, you cannot deny the “familia” familiarity between the two organizations.

As to your third point:

3. “MSI, as far as I can see, having been a leader in my current church since 5 years prior to its association with MSI, seeks to emulate the kind of relationship Paul had with Timothy, a father in the Lord, using discipleship and spiritual reproduction as commended in 2 Tim. 2:2”

I am in full agreement with this sentiment and personally live to duplicate this in other men myself. I would only add that while stating common ends it does not mean MSI use common means.
It is here, in application, that I have biblical dispute with. My view is that much of MSI invalidate the personal priesthood of the believer with extreme views on Lordship. I believe in total submission to Christ but I do not believe in unconditional submission to the wishes and mandates of MSI leaders. If you have not experienced this, praise God, but I can sights hundreds
from the movement who have. They have been told what there ministry is, where to work, confirm who to marry and who not to marry, I have watch men who have once had ministry visions for world missions, the arts, and gifting absolutely squashed under the opinion of “delegated” authority. I have witnessed local pastors held back from there vision, or usurp in there local authority as pastor, having campus staff undermined local church loyalty by the supreme ministry of Victory Campus Ministries. Many pastors in MSI know this is the case. A number of them have confided in me that the students they sent to MSI graduate school came back to the full of pride and with their own personal agenda above the local churches.

In conclusion, my motivation for contention is not out of anger or bitterness. It is out of my desire to offer freedom to those enslaved to legalism everywhere (not just in MSI). Secondly, It is out of a desire to see MSI make the necessary adjustments, admit the need to change, hold the guilty parties accountable and move on to be a great vessel in the Body of Christ. MSI has some great potential but not as it stands currently.
Your Brother, (like it or not) Big Tommy

Thank you for addressing this teaching. I heard it a few years ago in a church I was attending and I quickly exited that church having just left a very abusive church. What makes me sad is that if the correct/popular person is teaching it, then it is the pure gospel to the lazy body of Christ. I think that we should pray that the scales be lifted off the eyes of these people and they seek God for themselves.

I'm sorry to read of Tommy's problems with MSI, posted March 18. However, as a professional mediator, I cannot take up someone's complaints and then seek the other party to let me mediate them.

I can only repeat what I've said before, which is, I've found the MSI leaders I've dealt with to be men of integrity and not control freaks. Sometimes people are rebellious against spiritual leadership. I cannot judge whether such an accusation against Tommy might be true or not. Nor can I judge a MSI leader as in error for having alegedly accused Tommy of that.

And I regret readers of this forum are hearing only one side of this, but I am not in a position to do anything about it.

Dave Haigler - Dama@cox.net

Haig,

CSI is one of my favorite show and I am just going to quote what was said by this.

" The funny thing about TRUTH is that it will finds its way to the Light"

Jesus said this, For nothing is hidden that God will Not bring into Light.

There are godly men and ungodly men in the key leadership in MSI. God will bring things into Light in due time.

Haiglaw,
Don't cop out........ Use your god given skills as a lawyer and seek the truth! Since you represent MSI by your involvement, you have a moral obligation to know the truth and the reality of those whom MSI has and is hurting.

Do the research and ask the questions. (I refer you back to my last response with you). Verify the facts by interviewing the individual parties if you are so interested in the truth. After all should you not care about who you are representing (MSI)? The majority of the time someone leaves MSI, they are labeled spiritually rebellious. Particularly in the LA Group. I cannot think of one person out of the hundreds that left MSI, that it was not said of them, "they are just bitter & rebellious."

Common sense would reason that it can't always be the other guys fault and not MSI. Dave, you have had limited knowledge and involvement with MSI. I believe you have had a good experience with MSI but that is not the whole. Also, as I have stated before, there are some wonderful men in MSI but the flaw (in MSI) is in their view of apostolic authority, application of discipleship methods, where many of the leaders view themselves as
“God’s delegated authority” over local churches and individual’s.

I have known these men, extremely close (22 years & produced thousands of converts) and contributed to the formative patterns and principles that founded MSI (including Champions For Christ & Victory Campus Ministries). Phil Bonasso, one of the founders of MSI even stated when introducing me at a MSI world conference, “Tom Sirotnak knows our patterns, principles and philosophies better than I do.” Then after I spoke we recruited one of the all time largest groups to enter MSI’s graduate school for developing new campus staff. And as I have stated repeatedly, I was one of the guiltiest participants of employing legalistic tactics in my application of leadership development, evangelism, and discipleship. But God apprehended my heart and I repented of such controlling tactics.

Where did I pick up such teachings? MSI leadership. There are hundreds if not thousands of men and women who have suffered under the legalistic teachings and were raised in MSI’s spiritually controlled environment, rather than “spirit led” leadership of MSI. That concerns me as much as it would to see someone blinded by a group like the International Church Of Christ or any other controlling group! If you belong to such a group, don’t let legalistic, controlling, guilt-manipulating leaders (in any organization not just MSI) do your thinking for you. Hear God and seek to obey Him

I got this from a website, its Margaret Singer, Probably its in her book. A psychologist , an expertise in cult watchers. Her book is entitled CULTS in our Midst.


They also shelter the cults by trying to discredit the reports of ex-members who try to tell the world what it was like to be in a cult. The apologists disparage these former members, calling them bitter apostates, disgruntled, defectors, disloyal, and turncoats.


David Bromley and Anson Shupe, sociologists. Cult apologists blame the victims and protect the villians. Like the mad kings of old, they shoot the messenger bearing bad news.


One of the most illogical positions taken by the apologists is their claim that only current cult members tell the truth. However, the findings of many researchers, as well as my own numerous interviews with former members, show that cult members are so dependent on the group while they are in it that they dare not tell the truth, dare not complain.



Sound like the church I used to go, the one I just left, 4 years ago. HMMM comment anyone ?